Bad Arolsen files - the end of Revisionism?

[Hannover]

I note the rather obvious.

Saigon has not / cannot give us a single example of any Arolsen document which supports the 'holocaust' storyline, but yet he calls the Arolsen archives the 'end of Revisionism'. But then proof is not required when it comes to the 'holocaust' mythology.

Apparently Saigon is in over his head.

- Hannover

[Zulu]

I note the rather obvious.

Saigon has not / cannot give us a single example of any Arolsen document which supports the 'holocaust' storyline, but yet he calls the Arolsen archives the 'end of Revisionism'. But then proof is not required when it comes to the 'holocaust' mythology.

Apparently Saigon is in over his head.

- Hannover

My conviction is that the ITS at Bad Arolsen is a gold's mine for the revisionism.
Actually, for most of the people deported by the Nazis, that database is generally able to give a good answer to the supposedly embarrassing question: "If they were not gassed, where are they?".
For instance, when a survivor tells us "Following my arrival at Auschwitz with all my family, after the selection I saw my wife and my children going immediately to the gas chambers", there are then evident questions which must be asked:

- What are their names?
- Did you make a research for them at the ITS?
- What are the results?

Such interrogation would be probably the occasion of a festival of dodging answers and pathetic attempts of diversion...I have already made that experiment by myself.
In fact, for most of people involved in the Nazi policy of deportation it is possible to find the actual fate of a particular deportee through a search made at Bad Arolsen by using name/birth date/town of origin, etc...As previously stated, for all the cases the cause of death discovered would not be "gassed" while the place of the death could be another camp than Auschwitz. Au passage, this last occurrence contradicts by itself the famous axiom "All Jews not registered at Auschwitz were gassed upon arrival" by proving that many of them were actually transferred towards other camps where they could have died or not. However, accordingly with the death books (Sterbebücher) of Auschwitz , about 110,000 people died at that camp and, as consequence, numerous searches may finally give deaths at that place therefore for causes duly consigned.

The huge discrepancy between documentary evidences and the official number of 4 millions until the 90's could explain why the Russians have hidden for long time such Sterbebücher, as well as the documents concerning the deliveries of coke to the 4 crematoria, especially those corresponding to the period of 1944-45 which includes the alleged arrival of more than 400,000 Hungarian Jews mostly supposedly "gassed" at that camp.

There is a cohort of so called "eyewitnesses of gassing" which are actually survivors who lack information. They arrived with relatives at Auschwitz and they haven't seen them anymore. Then, as the official scenario tells them that they were "gassed" with no other alternative, they simply adopts that narrative in good faith and pass to count everywhere to everybody "I was there and my relatives were gassed" which as consequence increases the number of survivors who reinforce the tale. These survivors constitute the "large number of eyewitnesses of the holocaust" so often alleged by the holocaustians to sustain the reality of "murder gassing operations". Apart from rare exceptions like the picturesque Irene Zisblatt, that kind of survivors are not liars in opposite to the surviving "Sonderkommandos" who allege to have participated directly in "gassing operation" and who constitute the main pillar of the hoax.

Then, when these people make some basic research at the ITS, it happens that they usually discover surprising facts about the actual fate of their relatives. As a good example of such situation there is the case of Eugene Black:

Survivor discovers sister was bombed not gassed

I was myself involved last year in a challenge about the fate of the alleged 400,000 gassed Hungarian Jews in 1944. When asked in a forum "If they were not gassed, where are they?" I just answered: give me a name. Then I was given "Geza Lajtbs", supposedly the woman who appears on a famous photo of the Album of Auschwitz. The fact that such name is supposed to be notorious while not appearing in the list of victims of Yad Vashem helped me to accede indirectly to the information available at the ITS through some mails. However, that kind of help is not possible for anonymous names because the ITS doesn't give any information if you are not a relative or a scholar involved in a duly documented research.

The solution of the "Geza Lajtbs' case"
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6370&p=45549#p45549

The rigorous exhaustive exploitation of the ITS database is a constant exigence coming from the revisionism because it is a simple way to clear many doubts about the statistics of the deportation and the Nazi camps. For instance, it is possible to take all the lists of the people sent to Auschwitz and then trace them name by name. The same for all the camps. Guess why that work is not done yet.

The actual issue is that, since the end of WWII, it seems that no accurate list of victims with their respective fate was properly established despite the huge data base available at Bad Arolsen and powerful computers able to make the job. If it exists one, that is not published. I am afraid that nobody wants to know the truth.

Since long time ago, the Pr. Faurisson has been asking to Serge Klarsfeld - the man in charge of establishing the statistics about the 75,721 Jewish deportees from France - if the researches on them were properly done at the ITS of Bad Arolsen and especially if the fate of the 11,426 Jewish children of that list has been actually defined.
The Professor has been denouncing the particular dishonesty of Klarsfeld who counts as "Shoah's victims" all the people of his list of deportees who hadn't registered themselves to the ancient combatant authorities in Paris before January 1946.
Only about 2,500 registered them conveniently, then Klarsfeld declared all the remaining as "gassed" by the nazis. Well, 60% of the Jewish deportees from France were foreigners - not French citizens - mostly coming from the Eastern countries of Europe. One can imagine that the survivors of that community didn't have particular reasons to return in France after the war.
Moreover, Robert Faurisson pointed blatant contradictions of the Klarsfeld's method by showing that alleged "gassed" on the list like Simone Veil of Henri Krasucki, both famous in France, were actually alive and living well in Paris.
What about all the children? Some returned in France in charge of humanitarian organizations and the IRC while others were placed under the protection of International Jewish Organizations like the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee which probably resettled a large number of them in Israel and in other countries of South America or Asia.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2355&start=15

[borjastick]

The claim the the ITS doesn't allow access to these files by the general public is in my view, another cover up of the truth. It goes like this; Treblinka site cannot be excavated because it doesn't fit with Jewish burial tradition. This we now know is nonsense. Then the normal rules of evidence and proof at the IMT were completely avoided. Such that anyone could say anything and not fear they would be cross examined and expected to prove what they had claimed. Now we have ITS who I would guess haven't the people nor the money to read and log all the details in the files, but nonetheless they know they are sitting on a Titanic sized timebomb. If these files were truly and openly scrutinized I suspect the holocaust myth would be totally exposed.

As I have said before in other posts this would lead to incredulity, hatred, legal ramifications against Israel and exposure of Israel to threats and condemnation. Plus a lot more besides.

[astro3]

I suggest there are only two fundamental points which revisionists need to ascertain from the Arolsen Archives. The first is that reaffirmed on this thread by ‘polishheritage’ that the manager of Arolsen has stated (in about 2005), they don’t have one single case of cyanide death in all of their archives. Note that he can say that without going to jail.
The second is that stated in Rudolf’s Grundlagen in 1993 and by Georges Thiel in 2006, that the total of all their records, of people who lived and died in all the German labour camps, is around 290,000. Clearly they cannot say that without going to jail.
The total number of victims names filed at Arolsen Thiel quotes as 291,594 (Heresy in Twenty-first century France, p.73). You then have to decide what % of these are Jews.
Compare dissecting the Holocaust http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndstats.html 296,081 (at end of chapter) – much the same figure.
I saw an International Red Cross table from 1970 that had a total of 270,000 which suggests an ongoing accumulation of data.

[borjastick]

astro3 I agree with your figures, certainly there are records as such that the 290,000 figure holds a lot of water. However with regard to the comments by the Arolsen manager and those by Grundlagen and Thiel, it is perhaps what these people didn't say rather than what they did say, that has kept them out of trouble. In other words they didn't say the words 'no gassings took place', instead they said 'no records of gassing deaths'. To you and I it is the same message but in the eyes of the law it is perhaps a sublety that avoids prosecution. I would say that it is a distinction without a difference...

[Hannover]

astro3 I agree with your figures, certainly there are records as such that the 290,000 figure holds a lot of water. However with regard to the comments by the Arolsen manager and those by Grundlagen and Thiel, it is perhaps what these people didn't say rather than what they did say, that has kept them out of trouble. In other words they didn't say the words 'no gassings took place', instead they said 'no records of gassing deaths'. To you and I it is the same message but in the eyes of the law it is perhaps a sublety that avoids prosecution. I would say that it is a distinction without a difference...

Borjastick clearly misses the fact that the vested interests' public pronouncements about Arolsen is that the Arolsen records are proof of the 'holocaust', which by definition means 'gassings'.

- Hannover

[Hektor]

...I challenge you to produce one document from the Bad Arolsen in which it is stated that a prisoner died from asphyxiation from whatever is your favorite gas. And I do not mean accidental deaths - but malicious ones where the Germans are alleged to have shoved the prisoner into a bunker, barn, modified structure for "homicidal uses", et c. I think you get my drift.

That links up to the often state claim "The holocaust is the best documented event/genocide in world history". Really, why is it confirming with more then 99% congruency that the Revisionist thesis is true? Taken the Nazis may have destroyed many of the incriminatory documents. But if there is so many documents, sure the evil Nazis would have forgotten to destroy some of them? In fact shouldn't we expect that they would have destroyed documents en masse? Contrary to that we have this vast amount of documents that one may just think that they had nothing to hide. Anyway, if there was a plan to exterminate all the Jews, we should at least find some serious plans, proposals on doing that - we don't. There should be orders and progress reports on the gassings in the camps - there aren't. Instead Holocaustians play shell games with documentary evidence. They always refer to the "piles of other documentary evidence". So why not show it. Why try to postpone taking up the burden of proof.

So the documentary evidence is actually a friend of revisionism not the Holocaust, "he" only has got only innuendo and paragraph as his friends. And surrounds it self with an army of civil society activists as a body guard.

[astro3]

At the start of this thread, a figure was quoted in millions re the Bad Arolsen archive ('incontrovertible proof that Nazis did murder some 11- 12 million people'). I suggest any such large number was alluding to the total number of documents contained in that huge Archive - not case-histories. That archive has got millions of documents. To help get the numbers straight I offer the following:

Holo-Maths A Beginners Guide
*** Four Numbers ***

1. 20,000,000
For ‘The Holocaust’ in Europe with a capital T and H in the 20th century - the one that did really happen - we must surely be alluding to the murder of 20-30 million Russians by the ‘Cheka’ (these were mainly red Jews), characterized by the horrible cruelty and sadism of those deaths http://www.rense.com/general86/realholo.htm. The reliable source Mark Weber has endorsed the twenty million figure: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v14/v14n1p-4_Weber.html'The Jewish role in the Bolshevik Revolution' Obviously no-one is allowed to talk about this.

2. 1,000,000
As regards the total number of Jews who died in WW2 – no-one is ever going to find a reliable figure. Too many national boundaries changed, the Iron Curtain came down, the huge Diaspora took place out of Eastern Europe etc. An arm-waving figure could be just over one million. (I’m quoting Butz here, in his foreword to the Sanning book, he reckoned that was the best figure one was likely to get). If sixty million died in WW2, this is not greatly in excess of what one would expect from the % of Jews residing in Europe.

3. 300,000
From the Bad-Arolsen archive, I suggest we get a figure of 200-300 thousand Jews who lived and died in German labour camps of WW2, this being exactly the figure cited by Bishop Williamson. http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=5658

4. 0
The total number of Jews who died in big cyanide gas-chambers in Poland in WW2: Zero.
That is the one precise figure.

[Hektor]

...3. 300,000
From the Bad-Arolsen archive, I suggest we get a figure of 200-300 thousand Jews who lived and died in German labour camps of WW2, this being exactly the figure cited by Bishop Williamson. http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=5658
....

That ~ 300.000 figure applies to registered fatalities in the areas the concentration camps were in. That of course includes everything from old age, disease, homicide, executions, bombing death etc.

[Hannover]

...3. 300,000
From the Bad-Arolsen archive, I suggest we get a figure of 200-300 thousand Jews who lived and died in German labour camps of WW2, this being exactly the figure cited by Bishop Williamson. http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=5658
....

That ~ 300.000 figure applies to registered fatalities in the areas the concentration camps were in. That of course includes everything from old age, disease, homicide, executions, bombing death etc.

And there is no proof of any 'unregistered' deaths. In fact, not being registered supports the fact that the 'unregistered' were never part of the Auschwitz complex, but were simply transported to other labor locations after a brief stop at Auschwitz / Monowitz. Simple stuff really.

- Hannover

[The Warden]

...3. 300,000
From the Bad-Arolsen archive, I suggest we get a figure of 200-300 thousand Jews who lived and died in German labour camps of WW2, this being exactly the figure cited by Bishop Williamson. http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=5658
....

That ~ 300.000 figure applies to registered fatalities in the areas the concentration camps were in. That of course includes everything from old age, disease, homicide, executions, bombing death etc.

And there is no proof of any 'unregistered' deaths. In fact, not being registered supports the fact that the 'unregistered' were never part of the Auschwitz complex, but were simply transported to other labor locations after a brief stop at Auschwitz / Monowitz. Simple stuff really.

- Hannover

Kind of ironic the Believers can't prove a negative.

[truth]

If the Germans are so good in destroying their own evidence in regards to the HC... then one would assume that not a single evidence would even exist that these Jewish human beings even lived in the first place. Why would any of these sick, hungry and forlorn human beings be allowed to live if the Germans are by Nature so very very mean.

I may very well be that the German knew from the start that they never could win a war and the way they fought was since the beginning for survival, as all countries wanted to destroy Germany as they were a rising star in regards to inventiveness, and skill. Under such stress, if that is what I said is half way true, one would not be able to destroy all the evidence. How could people have been so precise when they knew the angelic force of world finance capitalism and the press was in the hands of Zionists for the most part? Anyway, who understands history these days? Things do not always add up and we all are at various levels of knowing. Fact is: NOTHING MAKES REALLY ANY SENSE.

This thread is interesting. I need to read it all again.

Wishing all the best of healing, truth and the development of true benevolence for the welfare of all beings. History and Compassion must unite for a bright future of humanity.

[borjastick]

...3. 300,000
From the Bad-Arolsen archive, I suggest we get a figure of 200-300 thousand Jews who lived and died in German labour camps of WW2, this being exactly the figure cited by Bishop Williamson. http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=5658
....

That ~ 300.000 figure applies to registered fatalities in the areas the concentration camps were in. That of course includes everything from old age, disease, homicide, executions, bombing death etc.

And there is no proof of any 'unregistered' deaths. In fact, not being registered supports the fact that the 'unregistered' were never part of the Auschwitz complex, but were simply transported to other labor locations after a brief stop at Auschwitz / Monowitz. Simple stuff really.

- Hannover

I think Hannover you meant to say 'supports the theory not supports the fact. It is not a fact but it is a very plausible theory. However as you well know the traditionalist always say that those unregistered were so called because they were killed on arrival, or shortly thereafter, and not 'processed' in to the camp and system proper. Either way a mountain of lacking evidence and other proof soon takes care of these gassing theories projected on the world by our friendly zionist uncles.

[Hektor]

...
I think Hannover you meant to say 'supports the theory not supports the fact. It is not a fact but it is a very plausible theory. However as you well know the traditionalist always say that those unregistered were so called because they were killed on arrival, or shortly thereafter, and not 'processed' in to the camp and system proper. Either way a mountain of lacking evidence and other proof soon takes care of these gassing theories projected on the world by our friendly zionist uncles.

It is a fact or it isn't. What you mean is whether it is a proven fact. Well, I think it's save to say it is a proven fact for many cases. More evidence would be a bonus of course!

Assuming that pile of evidence Claimed so often by Holocauster, and at least we can assume a pile of documents. Where are the progress reports on killings with gas?

[forasanerworld]

Just spotted this of four days ago, a massive new releasehttps://eurojewcong.org/news/communities-news/germany/german-archive-puts-850000-documents-on-nazi-victims-online/