CW Porter's Website

[curioussoul]

lol you're overthinking this bro. I was correct because Wagner "did say they were extermination facilities," despite his earlier (recanted) denial. This is just silly.

Let's see who's overthinking it. You claimed that "Wagner did testify to exterminations via gassing to the BBC in 1979". Quote us the interview, "bro".

[Rockartisten]

lol you're overthinking this bro. I was correct because Wagner "did say they were extermination facilities," despite his earlier (recanted) denial. This is just silly.

Let's see who's overthinking it. You claimed that "Wagner did testify to exterminations via gassing to the BBC in 1979". Quote us the interview, "bro".

See my previews posts regarding your discussion with HistorySpeaks. The Washington Post and all other souces all derive from first source and it is the documentary Gustav Wagner: Angel of Death, produced by Tom Bower. It can't be found anywhere. But...

A video documentary, a more recent one, that I posted has the confrontation in it. And it also has Tom Bower himself.

In the Washington Post, Tom Bower claims that during the confrontation with Schlomo, Wagner said:

"You should be grateful to me. I saved you from the gas chambers."

However, in this newer documentary, where we see the confrontaion, and the room filled with police and journalists, all we get to see is, again, Tom Bower, claiming that Wagner said something that apparently only Tom Bower heard or knows. He says Wagner said:

"You should be greatful to me I let you live."

To me it seems Tom Bower is the source. Or rather, Tom Bower's word is the source. In a room full of police and journalists, our source is Tom Bower. It seems he is claiming Wagner said something in that room full of people and Bower seems to be the only one who knows. That says a lot about the rest of the quotes.

That's what I gather.

Confrontation between Wagner and Schlomo beginns @34:50. And the man commenting on camera after that is no other than Tom Bower.



And again. Regarding the other quotes that you are discussing. Look at my previous posts. Wagner doesn't look too well during his incarceration. He doesn't even have wrinkles anymore his face is so swollen. He jas been severely beaten. Or he beat himself like they claim in this documentary, jist like he might have stabbed himself to death in the chest.

[Hektor]

.....
That's what I gather.
Confrontation between Wagner and Schlomo beginns @34:50. And the man commenting on camera after that is no other than Tom Bower.

And again. Regarding the other quotes that you are discussing. Look at my previous posts. Wagner doesn't look too well during his incarceration. He doesn't even have wrinkles anymore his face is so swollen. He jas been severely beaten. Or he beat himself like they claim in this documentary, jist like he might have stabbed himself to death in the chest.

Unbelievable Dramatization, unless one already is into that kind of things I guess.
Can't make out what they try to prove with this.... Hence the suggestive music and movie work.

"Few Survivors from Sobibor"
How do they know?

If it was a transit camp indeed, most folks may have been there only for hours... Would they still recall, if they were there? Probably not.

[Rockartisten]

.....
That's what I gather.
Confrontation between Wagner and Schlomo beginns @34:50. And the man commenting on camera after that is no other than Tom Bower.

And again. Regarding the other quotes that you are discussing. Look at my previous posts. Wagner doesn't look too well during his incarceration. He doesn't even have wrinkles anymore his face is so swollen. He jas been severely beaten. Or he beat himself like they claim in this documentary, jist like he might have stabbed himself to death in the chest.

Unbelievable Dramatization, unless one already is into that kind of things I guess.
Can't make out what they try to prove with this.... Hence the suggestive music and movie work.

"Few Survivors from Sobibor"
How do they know?

If it was a transit camp indeed, most folks may have been there only for hours... Would they still recall, if they were there? Probably not.

So when and where did Bower get his quotes? Bowers documentary where the quotes are supposed to have come from, aired june 19,1979 and Gustav Wagner wasn't released until after the Brazilian Supreme Court decision on june 22.

So Bower got his qoutes from someone or by himself, either while Wagner was in police custody beating himself near death over and over again, or the quotes are from when Wagner was at psychiatric care with guards 24/7.

My take is. Simon Wiesenthal was part of that documentary, so I guess his goons got the quotes and that's how Bower got it. And they got it before Wagner received protection at psychiatric care with 24/7 guards.

Link here: genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/00e1ca98ea4747cabe7f6b0cc8299389

BBC One
Mon 18th Jun 1979, 20:10 on BBC One London

"Gustav Wagner, the 'Angel of Death' who ran the Nazi extermination camp at Sobibor, talks for the first time about the gassing of a quarter of a million people..."

There is probably a good reason this damning documemtary can't be found anywhere. It's complete garbage.

[fireofice]

So when and where did Bower get his quotes? Bowers documentary where the quotes are supposed to have come from, aired june 19,1979 and Gustav Wagner wasn't released until after the Brazilian Supreme Court decision on june 22.

So Bower got his qoutes from someone or by himself, either while Wagner was in police custody beating himself near death over and over again, or the quotes are from when Wagner was at psychiatric care with guards 24/7.

My take is. Simon Wiesenthal was part of that documentary, so I guess his goons got the quotes and that's how Bower got it. And they got it before Wagner received protection at psychiatric care with 24/7 guards.

According to this:

Wagner was released and left for São Paulo to an unknown destination, for safety reasons, on June 26, 1979.

https://forhistiur.net/2015-11-cittolin ... go-santin/

Thomas Kues relies on Tom Bower's report that was released on June 21. As Kues pointed out, none of the supposed statements made in The Listener really confirms the mass extermination story anyway. But just imagine relying on statements of a guy who has been in prison for awhile with injuries either self-inflicted or inflicted by someone else, someone clearly not in a great state of mind to say the least. And then insisting that these statements are more reliable than earlier statements where he is in a better state of mind. It's just laughable.

[Rockartisten]

So when and where did Bower get his quotes? Bowers documentary where the quotes are supposed to have come from, aired june 19,1979 and Gustav Wagner wasn't released until after the Brazilian Supreme Court decision on june 22.

So Bower got his qoutes from someone or by himself, either while Wagner was in police custody beating himself near death over and over again, or the quotes are from when Wagner was at psychiatric care with guards 24/7.

My take is. Simon Wiesenthal was part of that documentary, so I guess his goons got the quotes and that's how Bower got it. And they got it before Wagner received protection at psychiatric care with 24/7 guards.

According to this:

Wagner was released and left for São Paulo to an unknown destination, for safety reasons, on June 26, 1979.

https://forhistiur.net/2015-11-cittolin ... go-santin/

Thomas Kues relies on Tom Bower's report that was released on June 21. As Kues pointed out, none of the supposed statements made in The Listener really confirms the mass extermination story anyway. But just imagine relying on statements of a guy who has been in prison for awhile with injuries either self-inflicted or inflicted by someone else, someone clearly not in a great state of mind to say the least. And then insisting that these statements are more reliable than earlier statements where he is in a better state of mind. It's just laughable.

Wagner feels a bit parched after an interview with Bower and Wiesenthal:

[fireofice]

Another thing I thought of. When Gustav supposedly said to Stanisław "you should be grateful I saved your life" there is of course Kues's interpretation, which is valid. But another possibility I thought of is that he's basically saying "according to your version of events, I actually saved your life, so y u so mad at me???"

"You should be grateful I saved your life" in that context is a conditional response where you are accepting what they said for the sake of argument. It's not actually an admission that what Stanisław said is true.

[curioussoul]

Another thing I thought of. When Gustav supposedly said to Stanisław "you should be grateful I saved your life" there is of course Kues's interpretation, which is valid. But another possibility I thought of is that he's basically saying "according to your version of events, I actually saved your life, so y u so mad at me???"

"You should be grateful I saved your life" in that context is a conditional response where you are accepting what they said for the sake of argument. It's not actually an admission that what Stanisław said is true.

That might very well be the case. He seemed like quite a colorful character.

Notice how Matt refuses to quote the interview where Wagner supposedly "testified to exterminations via gassing"? Wagner testified to no such thing, and as Rockartisten pointed out, the interview with the BBC/Tom Bower is about as far from transparent as you could possibly get. Naturally, no transcript or recording of this interview has ever been made public.

[Hektor]

Another thing I thought of. When Gustav supposedly said to Stanisław "you should be grateful I saved your life" there is of course Kues's interpretation, which is valid. But another possibility I thought of is that he's basically saying "according to your version of events, I actually saved your life, so y u so mad at me???"

"You should be grateful I saved your life" in that context is a conditional response where you are accepting what they said for the sake of argument. It's not actually an admission that what Stanisław said is true.

That might very well be the case. He seemed like quite a colorful character.

Notice how Matt refuses to quote the interview where Wagner supposedly "testified to exterminations via gassing"? Wagner testified to no such thing, and as Rockartisten pointed out, the interview with the BBC/Tom Bower is about as far from transparent as you could possibly get. Naturally, no transcript or recording of this interview has ever been made public.

It's a matter of "No good deed remains unpunished". Except that it may have implied that the Holocaust Version would have meant that Gustav saved the live of the person now testifying against him, there is another possibility. And that's that Gustav Wagner may have saved his life in another context. And there is quite some possibilities.... E.g. that there were indeed people that wanted to kill him or that he was sick etc.

But for all this one would have of course need more information. But lets assume that there wasn't anything 'genocidal' going on. And the guards / SS were just doing their job at those facilities. That would render them innocent. Now imagine being innocent and being accused of all kinds of horror stories, which are widely believed... What would be the psychological impact of being falsely accused? It for sure got a baffling effect. And false accusers do of course know this and may make use of this, especially when lying is rewarded in some way. So the whole question of "Holocaust Testimony" is rather a question of social psychology then actual evidence based historiography. First deal with the psychological, social, cultural questions thoroughly, before one deals with testimony.

[hermod]

If Wiesenthal was involved in that operation, Wagner's alleged confession can't be a lie...

https://postimg.cc/ZWk6BZwK

https://postimg.cc/V0Qz97pM

https://postimg.cc/4nshG05F

[fireofice]

So looking into it, I found there are THREE different versions of what Gustav supposedly said to Stanisław.

From the original issue quoted by Kues:

"Yes, yes, I remember you well. I had you taken out from the transport, and I have saved the lives of you and your two friends who were goldsmiths."

From the TV source cited here:

"You should be grateful to me, I let you live."

From the Washington Post:

"You should be grateful to me. I saved you from the gas chambers."

Very bizarre to have these 3 very different versions of what he said. Wasn't it caught on video?

The gas chamber quote can be interpreted in the way I described above, as a conditional response but not admitting anything. The other 2 can be explained by what Kues describes. But to have these many different versions of what he said should cause anyone to doubt the authenticity of these statements until we can see the original footage.

If we are to choose one statement, it should be the one quoted by Kues, as that is the earliest version.

[Rockartisten]

So looking into it, I found there are THREE different versions of what Gustav supposedly said to Stanisław.

From the original issue quoted by Kues:

"Yes, yes, I remember you well. I had you taken out from the transport, and I have saved the lives of you and your two friends who were goldsmiths."

From the TV source cited here:

"You should be grateful to me, I let you live."

From the Washington Post:

"You should be grateful to me. I saved you from the gas chambers."

Very bizarre to have these 3 very different versions of what he said. Wasn't it caught on video?

The gas chamber quote can be interpreted in the way I described above, as a conditional response but not admitting anything. The other 2 can be explained by what Kues describes. But to have these many different versions of what he said should cause anyone to doubt the authenticity of these statements until we can see the original footage.

If we are to choose one statement, it should be the one quoted by Kues, as that is the earliest version.

Indeed it is so, that if Wagner said anything damning while cameras and microphones were present for the great meeting between The Jew Goldsmith and The Beast of Sobibor, we would have seen that footage in every single documentary about nazis. Everyone would have known it from school. It doesn't exist.

Another documentary from German public service. Tons of resources and archive footage. There they claim that Wagner admitted he worked at Sobibor, but he deny to have ever killed anyone. (@3:50)



Full documentary is not on youtube, but can be seen in the link below for all German speakers. But the crappy youtube translator at least works on the first episode on the youtube link.

https://www.ardmediathek.de/serie/Y3JpZ ... 5kZS80ODY2

From the Washington Post:

"Hello, Gusti," called Szmajzner. Wagner was momentarily caught unaware, then smiled: "You should be grateful to me. I saved you from the gas chambers.

We can see the footage in these documentaries when Wagner first steps in the door. It didn't happen this way. Not even remotely close to what is said in the posts article. TWP quote is a proven lie. That then also means that the rest of the article and the source it is based on, is completely unreliable and a waste of time.

In the youtube video. First encounter with Shlomo @4:25.

Then we have:

"You should be greatful to me I let you live."

And again, Tom Bower. But he doesn't put the qoute in the beginning of the encounter, he puts it at some point after Shlomo and Wagner have been talking for an unknown period of time. But they have cameras and microphones turned on them. Where was it said Tom Bower?

No... He is a liar. Or an idiot who doesn't check his sources. I'm guessing a liar. AND an idiot. There is a reason his documentary where Wagner confesses to everything is no where to be found.

The Kues quote. Yeah, you can read anything between the lines. I think Wagner meant that Shlomo should be happy he didn't get sent east. Whatever

But the thing is. That quote also implies that it's the first wording between Shlomo and Wagner. And from the video footage when Wagner enters the doors, this is simply not the case. They cut the video in the first episode, so we don't know what Wagner's first response was after Shlomo's dramatic monologue. But in the second episode in the German link I posted, Wagner is invited up next to Shlomo for his first question. I don't speak German, but I know they are not saying that (it's all German voiceover).

Reporter: Have you killed people...(something).

Then a big cut for Wagners response. I don't know what he says.

-I can't win...??... or... I can't say...?? (I don't know... Hehe)

German speakers can help out.

Mostly from what I gather of the videos is that Wagner thinks Shlomo is full of shit.

Episode 2 @29:19 here:

https://www.ardmediathek.de/serie/Y3JpZ ... 5kZS80ODY2

[Hektor]

So looking into it, I found there are THREE different versions of what Gustav supposedly said to Stanisław.
....
If we are to choose one statement, it should be the one quoted by Kues, as that is the earliest version.

Indeed it is so, that if Wagner said anything damning while cameras and microphones were present for the great meeting between The Jew Goldsmith and The Beast of Sobibor, we would have seen that footage in every single documentary about nazis. Everyone would have known it from school. It doesn't exist.

Another documentary from German public service. Tons of resources and archive footage. There they claim that Wagner admitted he worked at Sobibor, but he deny to have ever killed anyone. (@3:50)



Full documentary is not on youtube, but can be seen in the link below for all German speakers. But the crappy youtube translator at least works on the first episode on the youtube link.

https://www.ardmediathek.de/serie/Y3JpZ ... 5kZS80ODY2

From the Washington Post:

"Hello, Gusti," called Szmajzner. Wagner was momentarily caught unaware, then smiled: "You should be grateful to me. I saved you from the gas chambers.
.....

Did he really say "gas chambers" or are we dealing with some 'artistic license' on behalf?

But it sounds rather spiteful, anyway.

Without concrete recordings that have some confirmation... One has to consider this to be rather dubious hearsay anyway.

[DissentingOpinions]

Hearsay is par for the course with people who lie.

[Hektor]

Hearsay is par for the course with people who lie.

It's gossip getting legs. If put on paper some think it is then 'credible testimony', if nobody objects...That's how scams work. Not serious historiography. If this then even gets protected status, shielding it from critique, you actually can only conclude that they are lying and that they are lying big. Bear in mind that they don't have any reason for this, no emergency defense. But it appears now they are trying to create one.