Gypsies

[israelite]

Looking for information re the internment of the gypsies. Found a few things in the forum archives but nothing that explains why they were rounded up.

Have seen some references to the "Gypsy Nuisance" on Radio Islam but it was in some Scandanavian language, Swedish I think.

It seems that conferences regarding the gypsies were held in Germany as far back as 1890, and concerned regulating their movement. By 1899 the Bavarian police had even created a "Gypsy Affairs" unit.

So it seems that the gypsies had come to the attention of the German authorities long before the National Socialists.

Any info appreciated.

[Hannover]

Two pieces.

You may have seen this one at this Forum, but anyway, here it is again.

The “Gassing” of the Gypsies in Auschwitz on August 2, 1944
By Carlo Mattogno

1. Danuta Czech’s Historic Reconstruction
According to the official history 2,897 Gypsies, who were quartered in the so called “Gypsy Family Camp” within the camp BIIe, were gassed in Birkenau on August 2, 1944.
The most thorough reconstruction of this alleged mass murder is furnished by Danuta Czech in her Kalendarium. She argues as follows:

1,518 inmates were in the camp on July 30, 1944. This number grew on August 1 to 2,815. Danuta Czech comments:
»This number is probably the total number of all men and women.«
On August 2, 1944 the number of residents of the camp BIIe rose again, to 2,885 inmates, but the total number of Gypsies (including those of the camps BIIa, BIId and BIIf) is 2,898 persons, »probably men and women«.

Danuta Czech continues with her historical reconstruction as follows:

»An empty train stands ready at the train platform in Birkenau in the afternoon. 1,408 gypsies, men and women, who were selected from the camp BIIe and the blocks 10 and 11 of the main camp were brought over from the camp Auschwitz. They shall stay alive and are therefore transferred to other concentration camps. The departing Gypsies said good bye through the fence from those staying behind in the camp BIIe. The train leaves the platform in Birkenau at about 19 o’clock. There are 918 men in the train, among them 105 boys of the age between nine and 14 years, and 490 women. The destination of the train is the concentration camp Buchenwald. On the 3rd and 4th of August the 1,408 Gypsies, men and women, are still included in the work deployment lists of the camp Auschwitz II, with the comment, that they are located in a different camp. They will be removed from the camp list only after receiving the confirmation about their admission in the camp Buchenwald. […]
After the evening roll-call the camp Auschwitz II is ordered closed-down and the Gypsy-family camp BIIe is blocked off. The camp BIIe as well as a few further barracks, where gypsies are still located, are surrounded by armed SS-men. Trucks are driven into the camp, with which 2,897 defenseless women, men and children are transported into the gas chambers in the crematorium.«

It has already to be indicated, that the number of the alleged gassed contains a big calculation error: If there was a total of 2,898 gypsies, and 1,408 were transferred, it is impossible that 2,897 were “gassed”! The number of “gassed” is rather (2,898 - 1,408 =) 1,490.

2. The Documents

Besides this error in her calculation D. Czech’s reconstruction is based on indisputable facts, which are from a series of reports about the »Arbeitseinsatz« (work deployment) in the men’s camp of Auschwitz II (Birkenau).

On July 30, 1944 the »Zigeunerstärke« (number of Gypsies) was 1,518 persons.5 On August 1 (the report of July 31 is not preserved) the number was 2,815 persons,6 on August 2 it was 2,885.7 On August 3 the title »Zigeunerlagerstärke« (number of gypsies in the camp) does not appear anymore, and 1,408 gypsies are covered in connection with the camp BIIe under the Section »Überstellung Zig.« (transfer Gypsies).8
Apparently on August 3 did (2,884 - 1,408 =) 1,477 Gypsies disappear from the camp. What happened to them?

But before we answer this question, we have to ask another not less important question: Did D. Czech correctly interpret the relevant documents?

3. The Interpretation of the Documents

By the end of July and the beginning of August 1944 the men’s camp of Auschwitz II (Birkenau) consisted of the following camps: BIa, BIIa, BIId, BIIf, BIIg. They also appear under these designations in the relevant reports about the »Arbeitseinsatz« (work deployment).

In the camp BIIe were both Gypsy men and women housed, therefore also the designation »Zigeuner-Familienlager« (Gypsy family camp). But by organization the men belong to the men’s camp and the women to the women’s camp, and therefore the camp BIIe is never mentioned in the series of reports about »Arbeitseinsatz« (work deployment) before August 3. The male inmates of this camp are covered under a special section with the title »Zigeunerlagerstärke« (number of the Gypsy camp).

As we have seen, did the number of the Gypsy camp rise from 1,518 on August 1, 1944, to 2,815 persons. From where did these (2,815 - 1,518 =) 1,297 new prisoners come from? D. Czech assumes, that they were all Gypsies, but why should women be registered as inmates of the men’s camp? This hypothesis does not make much sense and appears quite unfounded.

As was already shown by Gerald Reitlinger, the Gypsy women of the women section of the camp BIIe were transferred to Ravensbrück on August 1, 1944.9

The sources which were listed for this by the British-Jewish historian confirm indeed, that the transport, which left Auschwitz on August 1, 1944 arrived in Ravensbrück on August 3, and he explains:

»The transport that arrived from Auschwitz on August 3, 1944 consisted exclusively of the surviving Gypsy women of the camp Birkenau.«

D. Czech’s allegation, that 918 Gypsy men and 490 Gypsy women were transferred to Buchenwald, is wrong, because actually 918 male Gypsies, but no female Gypsies were sent to that camp. The only documentary source quoted by D. Czech in this connection is a letter of the “SS-Standortarzt” (local SS-doctor) of the Waffen-SS Weimar of August 5, 1944 about the subject »Zigeunertransport v. 3. 8. 44 von K.L. Auschwitz« (Gypsy transport on August 3, 1944 from camp Auschwitz), in which are the 918 Gypsies mentioned; of these 105 belonged to the age group born from 1930 to 1935 (they were therefore 9 to 14 years old), and two were older than 65.11 Besides it is not clear, how these children and old people could have survived the “gas chambers” …

Also the «Verzeichnis der Neuzugänge ab 1. July 1944« (list of new admissions since July 1, 1944) of the camp Buchenwald mentions for August 3 a single transport, the one with 918 »Zigeunern vom K.L. Auschwitz« (Gypsies from camp Auschwitz).

Finally a report by the Dutch Red Cross confirms the arrival of a single Gypsy-transport in Buchenwald on August 3, 1944. These Gypsies were assigned the inmate numbers 74084 to 74998, which corresponds to 915 persons and which furnishes further proof, that these prisoners are from the Birkenau Gypsy camp and that the female Gypsies were not sent to Buchenwald, but to Ravensbrück.13 Since only this one transport with 918 Gypsies arrived in Buchenwald, it is clear that a further transport with additional 490 Gypsies must have departed to another camp.

There remains of course the fact, that the number of Gypsies from July 30 to August 1 increased quickly from 1,518 to 2,815. After we established that the newly arrived prisoners were not Gypsies, it has to be clarified, who they were.

The documents make it possible for us to answer this question unambiguously.
On July 30, 1944 a transport with 1,298 Jews arrived in Birkenau from Radom, who were incorporated in the camp and assigned the prisoner numbers A-18647 to A-19944. However the report about the »Arbeitseinsatz« (work deployment) of August 1 has absolutely no indication about them, neither under »Zugang« (Admission) (which does no appear at all), nor under »Zugangsquarantäne« (quarantine for admissions), under which only 968 inmates in the camp BIIa are registered. (The latter are part of the 1,318 inmates, who show up in the report of July 30). The 1,298 Jewish new arrivals are also not mentioned in the report of August 2, which is listing 965 inmates, who were held in the camp BIIa in »Zugangsquarantäne« (Quarantine for Admission) (from the day before were under the section »Zugang« (Admission) two »Neugeborene« (newly born) registered).

In the report of August 3 is for the first time the camp BIIe mentioned, where under the section »Zugangaquarantäne Häftl.«(Quarantine for admissions, prisoners) 1,415 inmates as well as another 547 under »Zugang« (Admission) are listed. Under this section are also included 16 prisoners of the camp BIa as well as 1,797 prisoners of the camp BIIa.

The quarantine list, which was prepared by the inmate Otto Wolken, allows us to reconstruct the composition of the inmates in »Zugangsquarantäne« (Quarantine for admission) of the camp BIIa.
The 1,797 on August 3 registered prisoners include the following:
- 1,614 from Blyzyn (July 31), registration numbers: B-110 to B-2902.
- 129 from Kaunas (August 1), registration numbers:B-2274 to B-2902.
- 54 of a mixed transport (July 31), registration numbers: 190656 to 190707 as well as A-199945 to A-19946.

The 547 inmates listed under »Zugänge« (admissions) in the camp BIIe were Jews from Radom, who on August 2 were admitted to the camp with the numbers B-2903 to B-3449. Therefore the »Quarantäne-Liste« (quarantine list) confirms, that the 1,298 Jews mentioned were not assigned to the quarantine camp BIIa. If they were with certainty registered in Birkenau, however neither listed under »Zugang« (admission) nor under »Zugangsquarantäne« (admission quarantine), then what happened to them?

The conclusion is unavoidable: they were quartered in the camp BIIe, where the number increased accordingly to (1,518 + 1,298 =) 2,816. The difference of one person can be explained, that the number of Gypsies for July 31 is unknown, but without a doubt dropped off from 1,518 to 1,517.

Therefore on August 1, 1944 of the 2,815 inmates 1,517 were Gypsies and 1,298 were Jews from Radom.
On August 2 was the number of the camp BIIe 2,885 persons. A total of 13 Gypsies were housed in other camps: one in BIIa, five in BIId and seven in BIIf. On August 3 only a single Gypsy was in the camp BIIe.

Also on August 3 disappears the section »Zigeunerlagerstärke« (Gypsy camp number) from the series of reports about »Arbeitseinsatz« (work deployment), and for the first time appears there the camp BIIe, where under »Zugang« (admission) those 547 inmates are listed, who we already determined who they were; furthermore are there listed under »Zugangsquarantäne« (admission quarantine) 1,415 prisoners, who neither came from outside the camp nor from the quarantine camp BIIa. It is therefore obvious, that these were already located in the camp BIIe and belong to the 2,885 inmates already mentioned before.

On August 3 was further mention of 1,408 Gypsies, that they are in »Überstellung« (in transfer): they also are part of these prisoners. Finally are additionally 72 prisoners listed in camp BIIe under »Beschäftigte« (employed).

When we add up these numbers, we note, that on August 3 (1,415 + 1,408 + 72 =) 2,895 prisoners were formally in the camp BIIe, of these were 1,408 (the ones transferred) actually there only on paper.17 On August 2 there were still 2,885, however twelve of the thirteen Gypsies, who were stationed in other camps, were again accepted in the camp BIIe, so that the camp number on August 3 should actually have been 2,897 inmates. Presumably were two inmates of the camp BIIe transferred or died, because on August 3 there were 2,8895 inmates.

To sum it all up it can be said, that the story of the gassing of the Gypsy camp lacks any historic base.

And I happened across this.

What about the Gypsies?

by Richard

One of the things that also seemed a bit odd to me about the Holocaust story - even before I began to question the basics - are the “other victims” who seem to be mentioned from time to time, but who remain mostly invisible. Among these are the Gypsies.

It is often alleged that the Nazis sought to exterminate the Gypsies as an “inferior race” in the same way that they sought to exterminate the Jews. But strangely, it seems that next to nothing has been written about this subject. I can’t recall seeing a single book or TV documentary specifically on this topic, and certainly no Hollywood films. This seems almost inexplicable, given that exterminating Gypsies would have been just as monstrous as exterminating Jews. Are Gypsies supposed to have been “gassed” or not? Why do we never see any Gypsy “survivors of the Holocaust”? If the extermination story is true, why aren’t these Gypsies brought forward as eyewitnesses? If they were, this could only credence to Holocaust claims, thus allaying suspicions that the Holocaust is an exaggerated Jewish story.

It can’t be claimed that this nearly total neglect of an alleged genocide is because Gypsies are universally despised and nobody is interested in them: there have been quite a few sympathetic films made about them, in Europe at least, and people are familiar with Gypsy music. Why nothing about Gypsies and the Nazi concentration camps?

If the story of a Nazi extermination policy is true, has anybody made any serious effort to estimate the number of Gypsy victims? If somebody occasionally cites a figure - 500,000 or 1,000,000 or whatever - is there anything whatever in the way of historical research behind these figures, or are they just plucked out of the air and tacked onto the alleged six million Jews for good measure? Are the Gypsies just “added on”, so to speak, because at times it’s expedient to make the “extermination” story seem less wholly Jewish?

I recall seeing an article by Dr Faurisson in which I think he mentions in passing that Gypsies were rounded up and interned in the camps, mostly because they were seen as potential black marketeers, but says they were not usually used for labour. Otherwise I’ve seen little about this question from revisionists either. But then, of course, there’s no “Gypsy lobby” to speak of making exaggerated claims, so that’s not surprising. Is there any revisionist article on this topic? How many Gypsies were interned in camps and how many may have died there of whatever cause? What meagre truth lies behind this casual and unsubstantiated claim that the Nazis had a policy of exterminating Gypsies?

- Hannover

[israelite]

Thanks Hannover. I had found the piece by Mattogno, still have the headache from trying to follow all the numbers.

Also found the following by Miklos Nyiszli who stated the following in his book regarding the Gypsies interned at Theresienstadt

"There were 4,500 of them in all (Gypsies). They did no work, but were assigned the job of policing the neighboring Jewish camps and barracks, where they exercised their authority with unimaginable cruelty."

So, if you were sent to Theresienstadt you got to kick the shit out of the Jews. If you were sent to Auschwitz you were gassed!

What did intrigue me were the efforts by the camp doctors to find a cure for Noma, a debilitating disease that mainly affected Gypsies.

Nyiszli had this to say about Noma;

"This terrible disease is exceptionally rare; in ordinary practice you scarcely ever come across it, but here in the Gypsy Camp it was fairly common among both children and adolescents. And so, because of its prevalence, research had been gradually facilitated and considerable progress made towards finding an effective method of treating it.

According to established medical concepts, 'dry gangrene of the face' generally appears in conjunction with measles, scarlet fever and typhoid fever. But these diseases, plus the camps deplorable sanitary conditions, seemed to be the factors which favored its development, since it also existed in the Czech, Polish and Jewish camps.

But it was especially prevalent among Gypsy children, and from this it had been deduced that its presence must be directly related to hereditary syphilis, for the syphilis rate in the Gypsy camp was extremely high. From these observations a new treatment, consisting of a combination of malaria injections and doses of a drug whose name is 'Novarsenobenozol,' had been developed with most promising results. Dr. Mengele paid daily visits to the experimental barracks and participated actively in all phases of the research."

Guess it makes sense to spend much in the way of time and resources to cure the Gypsies of Noma. After all you can't gas a dead Gypsy.

[Hannover]

also see:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=1744

- H.