Did a miracle happen in Germany after WW2?

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Did a miracle happen in Germany after WW2?

Postby Mkk » 9 years 7 months ago (Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:13 am)

Just saw this on SF:

Allied bombing raids flattened more than 100 towns and cities in Germany during WW2. Yet only a few years after all those cities and towns were bombed into ruble the Germans built them back up. People who saw where a town once existed and was just a flat piece of land and ruble came back a few years later and saw the town was there again. SHOCKING!!! It was like a miracle and some people I talked to expressed their feelings about it just that way. Of course when I mention that to people they always say the Marshall Plan did it.

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t143201/

What do users here think? Was Germany's self-reconstruction in a rather short time after WW2 remarkable, or just what is usual because of people's strong will to survive and the view that "life goes on"?
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Re: Did a miracle happen in Germany after WW2?

Postby Hannover » 9 years 6 months ago (Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:50 pm)

The German are and have been some of most industrious, intelligent people the world has known. I see nothing 'miraculous' about their rebuilding after the war.

I noticed in that thread the usual "Marshall Plan" canard. Germany received very little of that money, which of course couldn't begin to make up for the plundering of German patents, factories, personnel, and materials.

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Re: Did a miracle happen in Germany after WW2?

Postby Mkk » 9 years 6 months ago (Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:58 pm)

A video:



Covers rebuilding in the British zone of occupation [Northrhine-westphalia and Lower Saxony] - German planners were sent British and American architectural texts, sent to England to learn about rebuilding plans for Coventry, Middlesbrough, etc. - by 1946 1.5 million people re-homed by repairs in British zone.

I see nothing 'miraculous' about their rebuilding after the war.

Another point is, this has happened in all European countries.

Le Havre, France:



Warsaw, Poland



According to Encyclopedia Britannica, on Ukraine: Ukraine’s human and material losses during World War II were enormous. Some 5 to 7 million people perished. Even with the return of evacuees from the east and the repatriation of forced labourers from Germany, Ukraine’s estimated population of 36 million in 1947 was almost 5 million less than before the war. Because more than 700 cities and towns and 28,000 villages had been destroyed, 10 million people were left homeless. Only 20 percent of the industrial enterprises and 15 percent of agricultural equipment and machinery remained intact, and the transportation network was severely damaged. The material losses constituted an estimated 40 percent of Ukraine’s national wealth.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... 1/Ukraine/

Encyclopedia of Ukraine:

In addition to human losses there was great destruction of Ukraine's cultural monuments and institutions during the German occupation. The losses suffered by the Academy of Sciences of the Ukrainian SSR alone are estimated at 126 million rubles. The Germans destroyed 116 institutions of higher learning along with 8,104 schools (another 10,052 schools were partially destroyed). Many architectural monuments were leveled, as were 151 museums—museum exhibits commonly being either plundered or damaged beyond repair. More than 50 million books were burned or stolen; 634 print shops (77 percent of the Ukrainian SSR total) were ruined; and more than 200 theaters were destroyed. During their retreat from Ukraine the Germans followed a ‘scorched earth’ policy and destroyed everything useful to their enemies.

The Germans destroyed 714 towns and urban areas and 28,000 villages and farmsteads, and left approximately 10,000,000 people homeless. Total material losses have been estimated at a value of some 1.2 trillion prewar rubles.

http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/di ... kraine.htm
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Re: Did a miracle happen in Germany after WW2?

Postby Hannover » 9 years 6 months ago (Sat Nov 09, 2013 5:17 pm)

I can't imagine that it would be in the interest of the Poles or Ukrainians to wildly exaggerate the total losses & deaths supposedly caused by Germany, or to cover up the losses and deaths caused by their complicity with the communist government at the time. I mean no chance, right?
i.e:
Mass grave of Soviet victims in Volyn, Ukraine

Regarding the Encyclopedia Britannica bit, I do find this interesting:
... Even with the return of evacuees from the east ...
Ahem.

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Re: Did a miracle happen in Germany after WW2?

Postby Mkk » 9 years 6 months ago (Sat Nov 09, 2013 5:44 pm)

I can't imagine that it would be in the interest of the Poles or Ukrainians to wildly exaggerate the total losses & deaths supposedly caused by Germany, or to cover up the losses and deaths caused by their complicity with the communist government at the time. I mean no chance, right?

Most countries do have an interest in downplaying their own crimes or the crimes of their allies, and exaggerating the crimes of their enemies. But there are plenty of Ukrainian and Polish sources that detail Soviet atrocities against them, e.g http://info-poland.buffalo.edu/web/hist ... link.shtml http://info-poland.buffalo.edu/web/hist ... link.shtml http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/di ... 32hD73.htm
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Re: Did a miracle happen in Germany after WW2?

Postby Hannover » 9 years 6 months ago (Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:30 pm)

Mkk wrote:Most countries do have an interest in downplaying their own crimes or the crimes of their allies, and exaggerating the crimes of their enemies. But there are plenty of Ukrainian and Polish sources that detail Soviet atrocities against them, e.g http://info-poland.buffalo.edu/web/hist ... link.shtml http://info-poland.buffalo.edu/web/hist ... link.shtml http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/di ... 32hD73.htm
Indeed, hence the link I posted.

The problem is that there are huge financial & political gains to be had in grossly exaggerating the losses. And those that were in bed with the communists, which are many, will to this day and at at all costs, try blame communist caused atrocities on the Germans, see Katyn Forest.

These sorts are greatly emboldened and enabled by the impossible 'holocaust' storyline. To question their wild claims begets similar name calling, which IMO indicates inherent weaknesses in their claims.

It's revealing how little attention the media and 'academia' give to communist atrocities. One can only ask who dominates those organs of 'information'.

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Re: Did a miracle happen in Germany after WW2?

Postby Haldan » 9 years 6 months ago (Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:25 pm)

German men and in particular the women rebuilt Germany after the war.
In München there is a small tribute to these people:
Truemmerfrauen01_haldan.jpg


There's also a page on Facebook which has as it's aim to restore the honour of the so-called ‘rubble women’. So if you use Facebook, like it! :wink:
https://www.facebook.com/Truemmerfrauen

The page already has over 4k likes so far.

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Re: Did a miracle happen in Germany after WW2?

Postby Haldan » 9 years 6 months ago (Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:06 am)

I'm not sure if this is off-topic or not, but here it goes:
In Germany so-called German politicians (Katharina Schulze, Sepp Dürr and Claudia Roth) claims that it was Turks who rebuilt Germany after the war. There is a German petition which demands an apology from these politicians for making such outragous claims, see:
https://www.openpetition.de/petition/on ... mmerfrauen

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Re: Did a miracle happen in Germany after WW2?

Postby Hannover » 9 years 6 months ago (Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:13 pm)

Haldan wrote:I'm not sure if this is off-topic or not, but here it goes:
In Germany so-called German politicians (Katharina Schulze, Sepp Dürr and Claudia Roth) claims that it was Turks who rebuilt Germany after the war. There is a German petition which demands an apology from these politicians for making such outragous claims, see:
https://www.openpetition.de/petition/on ... mmerfrauen

Regards,
-haldan
Give me a break with the Marxist 'German politicians'. The crime prone Turks were only brought in AFTER the booming German industry supposedly needed more factory workers, Germany was already rebuilt. And as usual with such a plan, it was supposed to be temporary. To this day Germans everywhere regret that unpopular decision.

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Re: Did a miracle happen in Germany after WW2?

Postby Barrington James » 9 years 5 months ago (Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:28 pm)

Keep in mind that the British policy of bombing Germany in WW 2 was to kill many civilians as possible, not to destroy the industry. ...The Lindemann Plan. Recall that the planes that destroyed Dresden actually flew over the Dresden railways without bombing them. Consequently , according to Antony Sutton Sutton, at least 85% of the industry in West Germany was undamaged in the war. The Russians, on the other hand, however, stole all East German industry. Neverthess , for the most part, the miracle of Germany was a matter of getting the the relative new German industries up and running again. Great Britain, on the other hand, was left broke, it's industries were outdated, it was locked in a class struggle, it's unions were fighting for their lives, and it's Commonwealth was fighting for their freedom from Great Britain....Was this all part of FDR's master plan? Could be. Sure worked out well for the US.
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Re: Did a miracle happen in Germany after WW2?

Postby hermod » 9 years 5 months ago (Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:31 am)

Haldan wrote:I'm not sure if this is off-topic or not, but here it goes:
In Germany so-called German politicians (Katharina Schulze, Sepp Dürr and Claudia Roth) claims that it was Turks who rebuilt Germany after the war. There is a German petition which demands an apology from these politicians for making such outragous claims, see:
https://www.openpetition.de/petition/on ... mmerfrauen


The same lie was spread about France while there has never been more than 3% of non-Europeans rebuilding France after WW2. Can "diversity" be sold to Europeans only with lies?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1d-fbRupQg
"[Austen Chamberlain] has done western civilization a great service by refuting at least one of the slanders against the Germans
because a civilization which leaves war lies unchallenged in an atmosphere of hatred and does not produce courage in its leaders to refute them
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Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, on the public admission by Britain's Foreign Secretary that the WWI corpse-factory story was false, December 4, 1925

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Re: Did a miracle happen in Germany after WW2?

Postby Mkk » 9 years 4 months ago (Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:41 am)

For those who can read German, two links debunking the "Turks etc. helped to rebuild Germany" claim which has become popular in the last few years:
http://www.formelheinz.de/index.php/200 ... eiter.html
http://web.archive.org/web/201002031857 ... ndex2.html

Germany in the 1950s:






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Re: Did a miracle happen in Germany after WW2?

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 9 years 4 months ago (Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:31 pm)

Here's Alfred de Zayas on the Marshall Plan, from Nemesis at Potsdam.

First a quick, sourced quote from Eleanor Roosevelt on wiki:

The theory that Roosevelt was not truly rejecting the [Morgenthau] plan, just postponing the decision until a more propitious time is supported by Eleanor Roosevelt, who states that she never heard him disagree with the basics of the plan, and who believed that "the repercussions brought about by the press stories made him feel that it was wise to abandon any final solution at that time."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau ... f_the_plan


The implementation of the plan to turn Germany into a 'potato field' was destroying the entire European economy.

THE BIRTH OF THE MARSHALL PLAN

THE ECONOMIC SITUATION IN EUROPE The fiasco of the Moscow meeting of the Council of Foreign Ministers in March 1947 convinced the Western Powers of the urgent necessity of striking out a new course independent of the Soviet Union. Total economic disintegration in Europe was imminent. Moreover, as George F. Kennan observed, 'it was plain that the Soviet leaders had a political interest in seeing the economies of the Western European peoples fail under anything other than communist leadership.' At this critical moment in European history, the United States was the only country in the world capable to shore up the ailing European economies. The new American Secretary of State proposed to do just that.

General George C. Marshall had been a capable military strategist during the Second World War. He proved himself an even better statesman. As Secretary of State under President Truman(1947-9) Marshall worked closely with George F. Kennan n the implementation of 'containment' politics and the Truman Doctrine. A key clement of this policy was the European Recovery Program, better known as the Marshall Plan, which was developed in response to Secretary Marshall's famous Harvard Address of 7 June 1947. The plan was not only in the best American tradition of humanitarian help to the needy — it was also intelligent politics. It is interesting to note that the recovery plan originally envisaged by Marshall was designed to promote the economic recovery of Europe on both sides of the iron curtain. The countries in the Soviet sphere of influence were thus to benefit as much from American aid as were the Western democracies. Of course, such aid would have necessarily placed the beneficiary States in a position of relative dependence on the benefactor. Understandably, the Soviet Union was not enthusiastic about promoting ties of its satellites with any other Great Power. It therefore took steps to prevent any of the Eastern European countries from participating in a programme which it termed an imperialistic ploy of the West. Only Czechoslovakia had affirmatively answered the invitation of Foreign Ministers Bevin and Bidault to the 1947 conference in Paris in which a joint recovery plan for Europe was to be discussed. After a visit to Moscow by Premier Klement Gottwald and Foreign Secretary Jan Masaryk, Czechoslovakia withdrew its acceptance to attend the conference.

The Soviet Union further boycotted the Marshall Plan by organizing a rival recovery programme for Eastern European nations, to be known as the 'Molotov Plan'. The Cominform, with headquarters in Belgrade, coordinated trade agreements within the Soviet sphere and diverted to the East a large volume of trade that had previously flowed to Western Europe. In October 1947 the Cominform urged Communists everywhere to help defeat the Marshall Plan as an instrument for 'world domination by American imperialism'. The Marshall Plan withstood the challenge. On 12 July 1947 representatives of Austria, Belgium, Denmark, France, Greece, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Luxemburg, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey and the United Kingdom met in Paris to discuss common economic problems. Occupied Germany, which was in a far more desperate situation than any of the other nations, was not a participant in this initial conference. However, all three Western occupants were themselves from the beginning the principal parties in the programme.

Although from 1945 to 1947 the Allies had implemented a harsh peace upon Germany, economists soon recognized that Western Europe could only recover when the principal industrial nations, including Germany, returned to a healthy economy. As General Lucius Clay aptly stated, 'it was apparent that Western Europe could not recover if there was an economic vacuum left in Germany.'

THE ECONOMIC SITUATION IN GERMANY In 1947 the economic situation in occupied Germany could hardly have been bleaker. Industrial output was only 27 per cent of pre-war volume.37 This alarming decline was attributable partly to the extensive dismantling of German industries pursuant to the Potsdam policy of taking 'reparations in kind', partly to wartime devastation, partly to the economic disruptions caused by the zonal division of Germany, and partly to inadequate manpower, since millions were still prisoners of war and those who were in Germany could hardly work efficiently because they were too weakened by undernourishment and disease."

The removal of plant and equipment from Germany beyond what could be effectively used elsewhere was one of the first Morgenthauist policies to run into extensive criticism from influential persons in the United States and Great Britain. Dismantled German plants were rusting away in warehouses throughout the Soviet Union, Poland and even France. This represented a net loss to European as well as to German output and was retarding the recovery of the continent as a whole.

Since most of the industrial dismantling went to the Soviet Union, the problem was solved in the Western occupation zones when in the spring of 1946 shipments were stopped. General Clay explained his decision to the irate Russians by quoting to them Points 14 and 15 of Article III of the Potsdam Protocol which required that during Four-Power occupation Germany should be treated as a single economic unit and that essential

commodities be equitably distributed between the several zones, so as to produce a balanced economy throughout Germany and reduce the need for imports. Since the Soviet Union was not pooling resources with the other occupation Powers but extracting maximum reparations out of its zone without giving an accounting to the other Powers, the dismantling of plants in the West for the benefit of the Soviet Union was cancelled.

The economic disruptions occasioned by Germany's zonal partition also continued to plague the recovery of the area. The Soviet zone oriented itself more and more toward the East and the French zone stagnated, partly because of France's unwilling-ness to co-operate in any all-German programme until the question of the Saar was solved in France's favour and partly because of her fear of a revival of Germany's strength.

But the recovery of Western Europe could not be made to wait for the unification of all of Germany. Even before Secretary Marshall's Harvard address the American and British zones had merged in common economic endeavour. The extension of this bi-zonal occupation to include the French zone, however, was not achieved until 8 April 1949, the same date of the entry into force of the Occupation Statute." The establishment of the Federal Republic of Germany followed on 24 May 1949.

Millions of dollars of Marshall Plan funds were poured into the young Federal Republic, and the rapid recovery of its economy exceeded by far the hopes of the United States government, which in fact had devoted only a relatively small percentage of Marshall Plan funds to the German recovery programme.

For the period from 3 April 1948 to 30 June 1952, the Marshall Plan allocated 3,176 million dollars to the United Kingdom, 2,706 million to France, 1,474 million to Italy and only 1,389 million to Western Germany. Yet, the biggest results were to be seen in Germany:

the effects had been prodigious, equalled in no other European country, although Germany got only a relatively small proportion of Marshall Plan aid. Europe received in all $20,000,000,000 from the United States; in 1954 the figures per capita had amounted to $39 for Germany as against $72 for France, $77 for England, $33 for Italy and $104 for Austria. But in Germany the help came at precisely the right time, when the accumulated pressures for both physical and psychological reconstruction had reached a bursting point. This phenomenal success of the Marshall Plan in Germany was to contribute materially to the success of the plan in the rest of Europe, and indubitably led to the early assumption of full sovereignty by the Federal Republic of Germany on 5 May 1955.


Pursuant to the 'Agreement between the Federal Republic of Germany and the United States of America regarding the settlement of the claim of the United States of America for post-war economic assistance to Germany' dated 27 February 1953 the Federal Republic agreed to repay one billion dollars of Marshall Plan Aid to the United States over a period of thirty years. Grateful to have had a helping hand at a time when survival was at stake, the Federal Republic of Germany has already repaid the entire amount.

- Alfred M. de Zayas, Nemesis at Potsdam: The Expulsion of the Germans from the East (Third Revised Edition) , Bison Books, 1989 (original edition: 1977), pp.136-140. Footnote numbering not reproduced.
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Re: Did a miracle happen in Germany after WW2?

Postby Hektor » 9 years 4 months ago (Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:46 pm)

Barrington James wrote:Keep in mind that the British policy of bombing Germany in WW 2 was to kill many civilians as possible, not to destroy the industry. ...The Lindemann Plan. Recall that the planes that destroyed Dresden actually flew over the Dresden railways without bombing them. Consequently , according to Antony Sutton Sutton, at least 85% of the industry in West Germany was undamaged in the war. The Russians, on the other hand, however, stole all East German industry. Neverthess , for the most part, the miracle of Germany was a matter of getting the the relative new German industries up and running again. Great Britain, on the other hand, was left broke, it's industries were outdated, it was locked in a class struggle, it's unions were fighting for their lives, and it's Commonwealth was fighting for their freedom from Great Britain....Was this all part of FDR's master plan? Could be. Sure worked out well for the US.

Yet the court historians will minimize the casualty figure for the Dresden bombing below 25.000 . That while the cities official residential statistics show a loss of almost 200.000 inhabitants from end of 1944 (566.735) to April 1945 (368.519). And that difference doesn't include refugees that may have increased the later figure.

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Re: Did a miracle happen in Germany after WW2?

Postby Mkk » 9 years 4 months ago (Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:48 pm)

There is a great book on the subject which can be downloaded here:

http://lib.freescienceengineering.org/v ... ?id=492197

He disuccses a lot of things - the amount of destruction, removing of rubble, the help of companies, reconstruction of monuments, how the housing crisis was overcome, pre-war and post-war planning, other factors and more.

For the following videos - I reccomend the watcher googles "(Name of city) 1945" (e.g Berlin 1945) to see how much they have come on in 10-15 years or less!

Dresden vs Stuttgart 1949



Berlin 1958



Cologne 1950s



Frankfurt 1959 (please ignore thing that says 1954)



Hamburg 1957-9



1955

"Truth is hate for those who hate the truth"- Auchwitz lies, p.13


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