So how many Jews died?

[Iggy]

Thanks a bunch!

Good site, by the way.

[Juan]

I'd reformulate the original question to suit the "guilt" matter better:

How many jews were directly and purposely murdered by axis regulars (Armed forces, police and SS) - and the crime went uncleared - ...

- in reprisal killings (not actual partisans)? <-- legal guilt low, but morally...

- as camp inmates?

- while being arrested?

- at any other circumstance?

- in self defense? <-- gilt factor zero.

While this numbers we may never know, it's a start.

What revisionists know for sure, is that

- gassed? <--- ZERO, unless the *possible* "psycho guard that threw a jew into the delousing chamber", alas, no proof, nor testimony.
- shot at the famous mega-massacres in the east? <-- low numbers, if any
- at the bear-and-eagle cage? <---

The questions on top would be very interesting to research, if only the right docs were accesible to revisionists.

Juan.

[Kiwichap]

Soda said:

Kiwichap - Is a Christian organisation the ideal source for statistics on the Jewish population?

Hey, the World Almanac is the World Almanac - regardless of where it's cached!

WWII reduced the total population of all of Europe by more than 25% or 150 million, from 542 million in 1940 to 392 million in 1950. If the Jewish population in Europe alone had decreased by a similar 25%, or 2.5 million jews, there would have been only 12.8 million Jews worldwide in 1946. If the 1946 almanac is correct, then there were 3 million more Jews than that in 1946 and even more in 1950. This would mean that the Jewish population increased at the same time that the European and Christian populations were decimated. And that suggests that the Nazis did a better job of protecting Jews than of protecting Christians. There were undoubtedly Jews who were treated unfairly during WWII, because war is that way. But if this data doesn't suggest that Nazis treated Jews much more fairly than they treated Christians and other Europeans, it definitely proves that Jews died at a much lower rate than Christians. If fewer than 2.5 million Jews died during WWII, then they died at a rate lower than all of the rest of Europe.

Even by 1990, the population of Europe of 501 million was still 7% lower than it was in 1940. But the worldwide population of jews in 1988 was 18.08 million, 85% higher than the 9.8 million whom the holocaust organizers claimed were alive in 1946, and 55% higher than the 11.63 million figure in the 1955 Almanac.

Isn't it strange that Americans are so consumed with images of millions of Jews dying in Nazi concentration camps that they are oblivious to 216 million Christians who died? Nobody, not even jews, disputes that less than half the population of concentration camps were jews. Who were the other half? Christians. Even if you accepted the Holocaust story in its entirety as historical fact, this is still 25 times as many Christians as Jews who died. Many of these Christians died in the course of defending their homes and homelands, rather than in concentration camps where Jews were herded after they successfully lobbied for and got gun control laws in pre-war Germany, just as they're now doing in the US.
http://www.christianparty.net/holocaust.htm

Face the facts.

We are dealing with liars!

Jews' losses were few compared to others.

Cheers

[Bergmann]

This maybe a good thread for Mr. Stevenson to add his estimate of Jewish Holocaust victims and his reasons why he believes in his estimate.

[comrade seinfeld]

http://vho.org/GB/Books/tsbc/index.html

[Hannover]

No seinfeld, don't just post a link without specifc comment. If you have a point to make then be specific.

- Hannover

[comrade seinfeld]

No seinfeld, don't just post a link without specifc comment. If you have a point to make then be specific.

- Hannover

I apologize for that, because it was not meant to happen. I was using a computer yesterday in a public library where TRF is blocked, presumably for being a "Holocaust Denial" site, and so I have to resort to the proxy server, http://proxify.com , and what seems to happen then is that when I submit a post I am sometimes sent back to the login page about two or three times, before I am able to post. I naturally copy and paste my post, but, there was a bit of a mix-up, with the librarian wanting to close the library, and I somehow deleted my post, so that only the Steffen Werner link was posted.

I was actually trying to reply to a post of yours in this thread where you said that Walter Sanning's book was available online at http://vho.org ; but what I found is that it is only available in French, and doesn't appear to be available elsewhere. (If you don't mind, I wonder if you could say whether you have any foreign language skills which you find helpful in this forum, or if you think it is necessary?) If anyone who doesn't know French wants Sanning's book in English then they can obtain second-hand copies either over the internet, or ordered through a good bookshop -- there is a good second-hand (or antiquarian) bookshop where I buy all my books, and I have an order in for Sanning's book (if you want to read the latest exterminationist texts for free, then you can do so at Borders, at least in my City). I did suggest, however, that people could read Werner's book online, until they were able to obtain Sanning's book, as the former, probably less well, deals with the same subject.

[Hannover]

Noontide has Sanning:
http://www.noontidepress.com/catalog/

The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry
Walter N. Sanning

Softcover, 239 pages
ISBN: 0939484110
Stock Number: 0389
$6.25
A masterly, unprecedented and so far unique demographic study of European Jewry 1931-1945, The Dissolution gives the most probable accounting of the actual fate of millions of Jews airily consigned to nonexistent "gas chambers" by the Holohoaxers. Sanning analyzes the (often fragmentary) census data and the extraordinary population displacements which occurred before, during, and after World War II, which involved great migrations of (very much alive) Jewish refugees into the Soviet Union, North and South America and Palestine. Discover why establishment academics such as Professor Henry Huttenbach of CCNY ("... clever veneer of scholarship ...) and Prof. John Conway of the University of British Columbia ("... a piece of sophisticated Holocaust denial ...") have offered grudging praise -- but no refutation -- of this key revisionist study. Foreword by Arthur Butz.

- Hannover

[Breslau]

Here http://www.mossadist.by.ru/HD_p1_ch1.htm Zimmerman criticises the work of Sanning concerning Poland - and here http://www.mossadist.by.ru/HD_p1_ch2.htm concerning the SU.

The number of Jews counted in the Polish census of 1931 was 3,113,900.1 Estimates of the Jewish population in 1939, the year Poland was invaded by Germany and the Soviet Union, place the population between 3.3 to 3.5 million. In The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry (hereafter cited in the text) Walter Sanning tried to depopulate Poland of its Jews so that few would come under German control. He placed the actual number of Jews in Poland at the war's outbreak in 1939 at 2,664,000 (p. 32).2

Sanning estimates between 700k and 900k Jews less than Zimmerman.

On the other hand: is it probable that the number of Jews increased by 10 % from 1931 to 1939 taking into account that Poland was even more antisemitic than Germany during that time? (10 % result from the fact that 130.000 Jews left Poland)

Is the work of Zimmerman honest?

[Peter H]

I once saw an educational tv-program on swedish television about a czech jew, Josef Kleinmann (he had another name before he emigrated to the U.S. after the war, but I can't remember it). He went to Poland to search for the rest of his family in the registry of people killed in the "Holocaust".

He found in the registry cards that all family members were killed, probably in the gas chambers... including himself!.

I wonder how many jews changed their names when the emigrated after the war, and how many errors there are in the post-war registeries of "gassed jews"?

[Carto's Cutlass Supreme]

That's true. No group changes their names needlessly like Jews. You see it all the time. And one always hears about as an aside. I remember one of the Israelis in that New Zealand passport scam had changed his name to sound more "Israeli" for instance. Probably even holocaust historian Yitzhak Arad did this. He mentions that both his parents were killed in Treblinka. But Arad doesn't sound like a Polish Jewish name. It sounds sephardic.

Alot of the name-changing in Israel is ashkenazi Jews switching to something that sounds more Israeli, more sephardic. "Arad" sounds just that.

And they can hardly say they did it for anti-semitic reasons when they move to Israel and change their last name can they?

And then for revisionists to try to estimate ashkenazi Jewish immigration to Israel with the name changing going on? Lots of people not only changed names, but dropped their native language (Yiddish) so that you have ashkenazi Jews in Israel speaking Hebrew with names like "Arad."

Then the believers say "Well, if you don't believe in the holocaust, then where did the Jews go?"

Here's part of the answer: For some, their kids and grandkids are in Israel speaking a language their grandparents and great grandparents never spoke, and with a last name their grandparents and great grandparents never had.

[Hannover]

A classic example of Zimmerman's fraud, excerpted from his so called 'Holocaust Denial', p. 3:

Poland’s Demographics

The number of Jews counted in the Polish census of 1931 was 3,113,900. Estimates of the Jewish population in 1939, the year Poland was invaded by Germany and the Soviet Union, place the population between 3.3 and 3.5 million. In The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry (hereafter cited in the text) Walter Sanning tried to depopulate Poland of its Jews so that few would come under Nazi control. He placed the actual number of Jews in Poland at the war’s outbreak in 1939 at 2,664,000 (p. 32).

He did this by citing a statement in a publication by Munich’s Institute of Contemporary History that in the years following 1933 about 100,000 Jews annually emigrated from Poland. The Institute gives no source for this assertion. In fact, this is the only mention of Polish emigration in the article. The article deals mostly with German-Jewish emigration. Moreover, the article does not state to which countries these Jews emigrated from Poland whereas it gives such a discussion for German emigrants. The purpose of the article, as is clear from the title, is to deal with German emigration.

Gutachten des Instituts für Zeitgeschichte (Munich, 1958), 79-85. The article only lists two sources in its bibliography. One of the sources is Mark Wischnitzer’s Die Juden in der Welt Die Juden in der Welt, 204-207, 212-215. Wischnitzer had used the official numbers when discussing Polish-Jewish emigration. (Source cited in note 5 herein.) It is possible that Herman Graml, the author of the Institute’s article, misunderstood Wischnitzer’s data.]

The official Polish figures for the years 1931-1937 place total Jewish emigration at 109,716. These figures were published in 1940, before the Holocaust, so that Sanning could not claim they were “politically motivated”. The figures also gave a breakdown as to which countries the Polish Jews immigrated. A Jewish emigration of the size claimed by the Institute would surely have been noticed. However, there is no mention of such a large scale emigration in any of the studies dealing with Polish Jews in the inter war years from 1919-1939. When figures are cited, the official ones are used. A study of minorities in Poland during the inter war years also cites the official Polish emigration figures. It is probable that few, if any, are even familiar with the Institute’s numbers.

Sanning did not take into consideration that there were simply not enough outlets for a Jewish emigration of the size claimed. Most Polish-Jewish emigration from 1931 onwards was to Palestine. However, there were severe restrictions on immigration to Palestine and Polish Jews had to compete against other Jews. Moreover, within the Polish-Jewish Community there was a concerted effort to discourage Jewish emigration by such diverse groups as Jewish Bundists, assimilationists and even Zionists.

Faced with an overwhelming amount of evidence that the Polish-Jewish emigration of 100,000 annually could not have taken place, most scholars would probably relegate the Institute’s statement to a footnote. At the very least, any serious writer who wanted to use such a number would ask the Institute how it obtained its figures and where these alleged emigrants went. It is obvious that Sanning never did this. However, this writer did make such an inquiry of the Institute. The Institute’s reply failed to shed any light on its figures.

Here I have a response to Zimmerman from one Michael Mills. He's someone who has shown himself to be inclined towards the standard storyline. As is so common, with the stories being so absurd, even the Believers debunk the Believers.

... there was a discussion about the claim made by an author connected with the IHR, Walter Sanning, that 100,000 Jews emigrated from annually during the 1930s.

I pointed out that that claim had been made by the German Historian Hermann Graml in an Expert Opinion prepared for the Institut fuer Zeitgechichte, and it may have been a misreading of information about Jewish emigration from the whole of Eastern Europe, and not only Poland.

I had previously found the source of the misinformation, and have now had the opportunity to look it up again.

It occurs in the article, "Migrations of the Jews", in Volume 7 of the Universal Jewish Encyclopedia published in 1942.

In Section V "The Care of the Migrants Through Jewish Organisations", Sub-Section 1 "The Hebrew Sheltering and Immigrant Aid Society (HIAS)", written by Isaac L Asofsky, we find the following (pp. 555-556):

"With the passage of the 1924 Immigration Quota Law by Congress and the necessity of exploring the possibilities for immigration to the other parts of the world, HIAS sought to strengthen and enlarge its activities abroad. In 1927, it entered into an agreement with the Jewish Colonisation Association (ICA) of Paris, France, for the purpose of forming what has since become known as HICEM, the abbreviated name for the HIAS-ICA Emigration Association. This association, with headquarters in Paris, and branch offices in thirty-two countries of emigration, transit and immigration, became the European arm for a world-wide immigrant and refugee service. IN THE PERIOD BETWEEN 1925 AND 1939, AN AVERAGE OF 100,000 JEWISH MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN EMIGRATED FROM THE AREA OF JEWISH MISERY IN EUROPE EACH YEAR [my emphasis]. In consequence of this effort, hundreds of thousands of Jews had been helped to settle not only in the United States, but in the dominions of the british Empire, in the Far East, in South and Central America, and in Palestine. Notable was the program of rescue carried out by the HIAS-ICA for the benefit of refugees from Germany since the advent of the Nazis in 1933. After the invasion of France by the German forces in 1940, the HIAS-ICA headquarters moved to Lisbon, Portugal".

It is apparent that Graml must have interpreted the term "area of Jewish misery" as applying to Poland only. However, it included other countries where Jews were persecuted to a greater or lesser extent, in particular Rumania, but also Hungary and the Baltic States. After 1933 it included Germany, after March 1938 Austria, and after September 1938 Czechoslovakia.

An average of 100,000 annually from 1925 to 1939 yields a total of 1.5 million, over 15 years.

In Section IV "Modern Times" of the article, in Sub-Section 3 "Migration Movements under Nazi Pressure", it is stated on page 552 that from 1933 to the beginning of 1940 a total of 260,000 left Germany proper, 124,000 migrated from Austria, and 43,000 fled from Czechoslovakia. If that total of 427,000 is deducted from the 1.5 million, that leaves a figure slightly over one million as the total of Jews who migrated from Eastern Europe between 1925 and the start of the Second World War. The great majority of these must have come from Poland.

Of course, it is possible that Asofsky exaggerated somewhat, in order to praise the work of HIAS.

I drew the attention of Professor Zimmerman to the above source of the 100,000 figure used by Sanning before publication of his book in "Holocaust Denial" that has been extensively quoted by a number of contributors to this forum. However, he does not seem to have had regard for my advice, perhaps preferring to regard the figure of 100,000 Jewish emigrants per year as one simply plucked out of the air.

Michael Mills

Can we believe anything shyster Zimmerman claims? Point after point, at this forum, he has been exposed for the charlatan he is. He even reverts to the laughable 'code words' claim since there is no evidence. He quotes 'translations' of alleged German documents where no originals exist, typical. Why can't he show the originals? Why can't he show us the alleged mass graves?

The fraudulence of Zimmerman knows no bounds.

Search 'Zimmerman' here and see for yourself.

- Hannover

[Godfred]

Some 500,000, as estimated by Thomas Dalton in the book Debating the Holocaust. This would presumably include also other than just camp deaths as most revisionists (those I have studied: Dommergue, Sanning, Graf, Rudolf, Zundel) put the jewish death toll in the camps at less than 350,000.

The total number of Jewish deaths at the hands of the Nazis—the “six million” number—has been highly exaggerated. The actual death toll was perhaps 10 percent of this figure: on the order of 500,000.

http://debatingtheholocaust.com/chapter_1

[Godfred]

I posted this earlier in a thread that was actually about the Auschwitz death toll, so I post it here now. An estimate of 1 million deaths is given, of which a fraction in the prison camps.

In summary, what happened to the millions of Jews that once lived in Europe falls into these categories; The majority emigrated to other parts of the world; A large fraction stayed in Eastern Europe which came under Soviet control; Another fraction, probably on the order of one million died during the war in Nazi camps, in Soviet camps, in Soviet military service, in pogroms, in German anti-partisan actions which included reprisal killings, or of disease and privation.

http://codoh.com/library/document/1042/

[Breker]

Sir,
The CODOH AnswerMan is way off base and overly estimating the number of Jew deaths. IMO. Estimates, guestimates are just that. We know what the actual German records stated and with further extrapolation, I would guess about 250,000 of all causes. Some Jews actually fought in the Red Army, many fought in the illegal "partisans" terrorist groups and legally suffered because of it.
The correct question should be 'How many German civilians were illegally and intentionally targeted by Allied terror bombings, communist mass murders, and starvation'? Oh yes, let's not forget the treatment of the Japanese: put into US concentration camps where slave labor flourished, terror bombed like the Germans and nuked not once, but twice.
B.