Your opinion on Rummel /Nazi, communist and other genocides

[Mkk]

R.J Rummel is a professor at the university of Hawaii. He has written a number of works about governmental genocide in the 20th century, including books on Soviet, Chinese and Nazi genocide.

He gives an estimate of almost 21 million deaths under Nazism, over 16 million of which under "genocide". but compared to communism releatively few domestic deaths. I don't own his book, but what are the major constituents of this number? Probably 6 million Jews, Gypsies, 3 million Poles, 3 million Soviets and a few others. Revisionists could easily take millions of the 21 million figure.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

[Hektor]

All the figures are sucked out the thumb. I think the usual number was 13 million, so he adds 8 million (which he gets where?), but the Jews insisting to lower that figure to 11 million giving them the prime of 6 over 5 million.

[Mkk]

(which he gets where?)

The 16 million genocide victims seem to be on the upper end of the Holo figures thrown around. The most common figure is 11 million, but Wikipedia and some other sources will only accept 13-17 million! 3 times the number, 3 times the insanity.

[Hektor]

My question is epistemological. How do they know? There is about 17 million documents that Arolsen got hold or copies of. But that doesn't prove any killing anyhow.

[Hannover]

My question is epistemological. How do they know? There is about 17 million documents that Arolsen got hold or copies of. But that doesn't prove any killing anyhow.

They don't know. As far as the numbers blamed on the Germans go, the court historians simply use wild, unsupported claims masquerading as 'data'', hence we get garbage in, garbage out.

Look at the section called "Holocaust":
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/HOLO.PAPER.HTM
Look at the author's shady references.

The author is simply citing those who have cited others, around and around they go. None of them have legit, supported by science, 'data'. Rummel is called an 'academic' when in fact he makes a mockery of the title.

- H.

[Hektor]

I think this Rummel has been criticized for exaggerating figures, but only for the Communist ones, not for the German ones.

[Mkk]

I think this Rummel has been criticized for exaggerating figures, but only for the Communist ones, not for the German ones.

His 62 million for Soviet victims always sounded too high to me. The usual estimate is 20 million. But Rummel added up all the estimates by historians and came to 62 million.

Although his work may be the most thorough collection of estimates ever seen on 20th century democide, it's still highly flawed ; the unreliability of the estimates is shown by e.g his Nazi estimate, ranging from 15 million to 30 million, his Soviet estimate up to 100 million.

The most popular work on the subject, The Black Book of Communism, estimates 100 million communist deaths.

U.S.S.R.: 20 million deaths
China: 65 million deaths
Vietnam: 1 million deaths
North Korea: 2 million deaths
Cambodia: 2 million deaths
Eastern Europe: 1 million deaths
Latin America: 150,000 deaths
Africa: 1.7 million deaths
Afghanistan: 1.5 million deaths

The international Communist movement and Communist parties not in
power: about 10,000 deaths

The total approaches 100 million people killed.

The same book claims the victims of Nazism to be 25 million, but doesn't cite any sources.

On pages 14-15 of the book, here is the statistics they give for Nazi genocide.

70,000 euthanasia victims (real, but the author says it was in some cases because they were old, which is untrue) and they claim it was by gassing, which is untrue. As has been shown many times before on this forum, there was nothing sinister about the euthanasia programme: it's practiced either legally or secretly in most countries in the world and is a humane way to end incurable suffering.

20,000 left wing militants dead in camps or prisons. I have seen figures of 30,000 thrown around for the total number of political prisoners executed in the 3rd Reich. I doubt most of them were before the war ; infact the BBC in one of their Bitesize revision guides states the number of people executed before the war at less than 600.

15 million civilians killed in occupied countries (including Jews-?)

6 million Jews ( a fraud as we know)

3.3 million Soviet POWs (Walter Post states this to be closer to 1.7 million ; those who joined the German army etc. were counted as dead)

1.1 million deportees who died in camps (total number of proven camp deaths is 300,000, half of them Jews)

Several hundred thousand gypsies (also a hoax, as seen on this forum.)

8 million who succumbed to force labour (Who? Where?)

If we add up all these categories it actually comes to 34 million!

Their statistics are unclear or who exactely they are including, and it seems they double counted millions of them.

[Mkk]

I found a source listing all deaths attributed to Hitler. My comments are in italics, with how many victims revisionists would subtract.

Holocaust (5.2 million in Rummel's version ofcourse, a complete hoax. Revisionists accept around 500,000. Minus 4.7 million )
Extermination of the Jews: [make link]:
Reitlinger, Gerald, The Final Solution (1953): between 4,194,200 and 4,851,200 (this number is accepted by Kinder, The Anchor Atlas of World History (1978))
Brzezinski: 5,000,000
Chirot: 5,100,000
3,000,000 in death camps.
1,300,000 massacred.
800,000 by dis./maln. in ghettos
Rummel: 5,291,000
Grenville: 5-6M
Davies, Europe A History (1998): avg. c. 5,571,300 (puts the minimum at 4,871,000 and the maximum at 6,271,500.)
MEDIAN: ca. 5.6M
Nuremberg indictment: 5,700,000 (accepted by Britannica)
Gutman, Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1990): 5,596,029 to 5,860,129
P. Johnson: 5,800,000
Wallechinsky: "nearly" 6,000,000
Urlanis: 6M
Country-by-country
Individual Camps, Massacres etc.
Auschwitz
Babi Yar
Belzec
Chelmno
Majdanek
Mauthausen
Odessa
Sobibor
Treblinka
Soviet Prisoners of War killed: (usually stated to be 3.3 million, but according to Walter post the true figure is around 1.68 million. The difference is the soldiers who were released, join the German army etc. Minus 1.54 million)
Urlanis: 3,912,000
12 March 1995 Times-Picayune: nearly 3.5M
Our Times: 3,300,000
Rummel: 3,100,000
MEDIAN: 3.0-3.1M
Mazower, Dark Continent: 3M
Harper Collins Atlas of the Second World War: 3,000,000
Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (1960): 2,000,000 dead and 1,000,000 never accounted for, presumed dead.
Britannica: 2,600,000
Roma (Gypsies): (insiginificant number per revisionists. Minus 258,000)
Hammond: 250,000.
Rummel: 258,000.
Mazower, Dark Continent: 200,000-500,000.
Porter: 500,000
Brzezinski: 800,000
Ian Hancock, "Responses to the Romani Holocaust" in Is the Holocaust Unique? (A. Rosenbaum, ed.) cites these:
US Holocaust Memorial Museum: 250,000
"several published estimates": >1,000,000
Pauwels and Bergier: 750,000
Financial Times (London): 500-750,000 in death camps and another million shot outside.
Homosexuals: (a few thousand at most. Subtract 222,000)
Chirot: 10-15,000
Rummel: 220,000
Euthanasia of Handicapped:
Hugh G. Gallagher: 275,000, citing Breggin (in Century of Genocide, Samuel Totten, ed., (1997))
Johnson: 70,000 insane and incurable Germans k. (this is the correct figure, though I don't know how much Rummel said)
US Holocaust Memorial Museum, Historical Atlas of the Holocaust: 70,000 k.in initial phase, 1939-41. 275,000 total k, acc. to Nuremburg Tribunal.
Air Raids
Richard Overy, Russia's War (1997): "an estimated 500,000 Soviet citizens died from German bomb attacks." (I've never seen that claimed before)
Belgrade
London
Stalingrad
Victims of Wehrmacht:
Acc2 historical exhibit curated by Hannes Heer: The common soldiers of the Wehrmacht murdered 1.5M Jews, 3.3M POWs + 5-7M non-Jewish civilians (17 May 1995 Agence France Presse; 22 Feb. 1997 AP)
Soviet civilians, generally:
The Cambridge History of Russia by Dominic C. B. Lieven, Maureen Perrie, Ronald Grigor Suny, p.226
Premature deaths under German occupation: 13.7M,(Tolstoy has 3-4 million. The overall death toll for the Soviet union during WW2 is put at about 25 million - 13 million soldiers, the rest civillias. This barely leaves any civilians to die outside the German occupation) including
"killed in hot or cold blood": 7.4M, incl.
"taken to Germany and worked to death": 2.2M (How is this possible? Noone has ever alledged death rates to be that high in the work camps. In 1944 there were 2.1 million Soviet workers in Germany - are we to believe the same number again died? Even the c. camps weren't that bad)
"died of overwork, hunger and disease": 4.1M (How many of these can truly be blamed on Germans?)
General political prisoners:
Mark Mazower, Dark Continent: Europe's Twentieth Century (1998): over one million died in concentration camps, not counting those deliberately targeted for extermination. (Actual figure of all recorded deaths in camps of non-Jews is under 200,000. Subtract 800,000)
Rosenburg, The Haunted Land: 26,000 political death sentences passed by German courts.
HITLER TOTAL:
Courtois: 25,000,000
Rummel: 20,946,000 democides
Heidenrich, How to Prevent Genocide: 17,000,000 (p.6)
Brzezinski: 17,000,000
Urlanis: 15-16,000,000 (11-12M civilians + 3.9M POWs)
MEDIAN: ca. 15.5M
Our Times: 13,000,000 (6M Jews + 7M others)
Compton's: 12,000,000
Grenville: 10,000,000, including 2M children.

Subtractions of off Rommel 20.9 million

-4.7 million Jews
-1.54 million Soviet POWs
-258,000 gypsies
-250,000 homosexuals
-200,000 euthanasia victims
-10 million (?) Soviet civilians
- 800,000 other camp victims

= aprox. 3.16m Nazi victims.

[Marcy Fleming]

Rummel documents his Soviet figures and the estimate is actually 62 to 80 million during their 74 year rule. Grivitsky and others documented 30 million missing at the 1937 Soviet Census and that might be conservative. See Rummels' Lethal Politics just on the USSR. Mao killed at 70 million people through his policies according to Mao:The Unknown Story by Halliday & Chang but their figures were way too conservative because they estimated 38.6 million killed in the Great Leap Forward (1958-61) but a recent book Mao's Great Famine by Frank Dikotter estimates it was closer to 50 million killed there. See the review in The New York Review Of Books, February 10, 2011 by Roderick MacFarquhar.
Also Halliday and Chang took Communist sources at face value at estimating only three million deaths during the ten year (1966-1976) Cultural Revolution. They admitted it easily be 10 or 12 times that. Every other family in Beijing along lost a relative to Red Guard terrorism during that decade. 30-40 million killed is the more likely figure.
Then add North Korea 5 million killed, Ho 1-2 million, East European Reds killed 2-3 million Sudentens killed while expelling 15 million, Pot Pot 3 million, half of Cambodia, in three years, Ethiopian Reds 1 million in 1977 Red Terror, millions more in Laos, Burma, Zimbabwe, Angola, Mozambique Red states, 17,000 under Castro and The Black Book is off by a likely 100 million, should be 200 million deaths in 20th century Communism (really state socialism,)
The Soviets invented the 'holocaust't the Stalinist Nuremberg Trials and they also hyped their own WW2 dead by a likely factor of three.