Dr. E. Michael Jones on the Holocaust and AI

[HistorySpeaks]

Curious, you are really going to need to calm down if you want to converse with me. I'm not here to be insulted. Other users are not behaving like you are.

You say I was "lying" but you plainly made a misstatement of fact; you categorically said there was no overlap. You introduced the term "significance" came after I corrected you.

[HistorySpeaks]

Another point: The maximum capacity for the cremas the Nazis envisioned (see Bischoff's 28 June 1943 letter) is significant, even if it wasn't reached it practice, because it points to the genocidal intent.

[hermod]

The cremation of 3,050 corpses in 19 months was indeed insignificant and almost off topic in a debate on the Holocaust. Claiming that 52 crematory ovens were used simultaneously in Auschwitz-Birkenau is a misleading distortion. It amounts to claiming that a guy drives an amphibious vehicle because he sometimes transports a canoe on the roof rack of his car.

[HistorySpeaks]

Why focus solely on the period of overlap? 3,050 is just a chunk of the Crema 1 total; the meme repeated by Jones was about all bodies cremated at Auschwitz, not just about bodies in the period of overlap.

[hermod]

Why focus solely on the period of overlap?

Because YOU brought up that topic in order to mislead less informed people with an inflated number (52) of crematory ovens.

3,050 is just a chunk of the Crema 1 total; the meme repeated by Jones was about all bodies cremated at Auschwitz, not just about bodies in the period of overlap.

Everybody here acknowledged that it (i.e. the 4 ovens thing) was an erroneous information. IMO, Jones demolished his credibility as a debater on the Holocaust (if he ever had any crediblity on the Holocaust) when he repeated that false information without correcting it. A very big blunder if I'm asked.

[PrudentRegret]

You should try asking it about fuel requirements for cremating bodies, even without including any context about the Holocaust or the like. Simply ask for how easy/difficult it is to cremate a body outdoors and how much fuel it would take to cremate a body as well as many bodies simultaneously outdoors. You can even follow-up with asking it things like "what if bodies were stacked together, would that save fuel?"

The one thing I've noticed is that it gives the Revisionist interpretation of fuel requirements for cremation, and not the magic fuel requirements proposed by you and the Holocaust Controversies bloggers.

(bold mine) I don't understand this. Clearly burning stacked bodies would save some amount of fuel (how much I couldn't say). The area around a fire and especially above it also gets hot, am I crazy here?

I asked Chat GPT that awhile ago and it does not save fuel, and if anything, it increases fuel requirements due to uneven cremation. It literally said "Stacking bodies to be cremated would not significantly reduce the amount of fuel required for cremation... While stacking bodies may help to conserve space, it would not significantly reduce the amount of fuel required for cremation. In addition, stacking bodies in this manner would raise complex ethical, logistical, and practical challenges, and would likely be viewed as disrespectful and undignified by many people".

Basically, without revealing that the context was motivated by the Holocaust, I asked it about the problems of cremating large numbers of people outdoors (i.e. 2,000 at a time). It was adamant that it is logistically unrealistic, and none of the methods attested to made it realistic:

"The exact amount of wood required to cremate 5,000 people would depend on a number of factors, including the efficiency of the cremation process, the size of the bodies being cremated, and the conditions and weather on the day of the cremations... A rough estimate would be several hundred cords of wood or more, depending on the efficiency of the cremation process and the size of the bodies being cremated."

So "several hundred cords of wood or more" to cremate 5,000 people, with no efficiency gains from stacking the bodies.

[curioussoul]

Curious, you are really going to need to calm down if you want to converse with me. I'm not here to be insulted. Other users are not behaving like you are.

You say I was "lying" but you plainly made a misstatement of fact; you categorically said there was no overlap.

Fear not, I shall keep responding to your false claims. Your hypocritical assertions of my lack of decorum aside, you're the one hellbent on questioning the motives of Holocaust revisionists and insultingly calling them "deniers" on this very forum. I've been around long enough to know how you people operate and what motivates you. You have no interest in history. You are ideological zealots. You are obsessives, and your breathtaking lack of the respect for the people on this forum and the people who run this organization is frankly sickening. Many of the people who started this forum, who run this organization and who post on this website have put their lives, their careers and their freedom at risk to stand up for something they believe in. I happen to be protected by the same Constitution you are, but many of the people on this website are not. While you smugly attempt to "debunk" revisionist arguments with faulty logic, inaccuracies and outright lies, many people adjacent to CODOH and revisionist research have spent decades and at great personal cost building the corpus of research that people like you now rely upon for your inane grifting.

Show some respect and step it up a notch.

You introduced the term "significance" came after I corrected you.

Let me correct myself: you used the term "considerable" to describe the period during which Crematorium I was active after the inauguration of the first Birkenau crematorium, when in reality, this period was not very "considerable" at all but rather utterly insignificant.

Another point: The maximum capacity for the cremas the Nazis envisioned (see Bischoff's 28 June 1943 letter) is significant, even if it wasn't reached it practice, because it points to the genocidal intent.

First off, this is not "Bischoff's letter". It is not signed by Bischoff and carries none of the insignia that would indicate it was ever filed and sent to the SS-WVHA in Berlin for Hans Kammler to see. Rather, it carries the signature of a mere SS-Sturmmann, indicating that it was probably a draft of a report that was later discarded or rewritten. Second of all, it's not even a letter, it's a handover protocol for the finalization of Crematorium III, handing over the responsibility of the building from the Zentralbauleitung to the Camp Administration. There is no bureaucratic reason for such a handover protocol to include wildly inflated numbers for the cremation capacity of all crematoria. During the Lipstadt Trial in Britain, even the judge questioned the veracity of this document, admitting that it bears a number of curious features which "raise the possibility that it is not authentic".

Interestingly, Pressac demonstrated decades ago that the numbers in this report bear a mathematical association to a draft-report written by Kurt Pruefer dating from October of 1941, before Birkenau was constructed, for cremation ovens that were never built. It is obviously impossible to ascertain why this document contained the numbers that it did, but it may safely be discarded on the basis of the fact that it is not factually accurate and clashes violently with other letters written by Bischoff and which bear his signature. But even if we pretended that the numbers are accurate, there is nothing proving that these theoretical capacities were ever reached; they represent mere numbers on a paper.

[HistorySpeaks]

You are being thoroughly silly; “significant” is a statistical term and you introduced it in order to justify your factual era. “Considerable” is a qualitative judgment, not a statistical term; and of course in this sense burning over 3k bodies is considerable.

We all make mistakes: you made a (fairly trivial one) when you said there was no overlap between Krema 1 and the Birkenau Kremas. How about we just move on instead of playing a childish semantical game to try to justify your mistake?

Regarding the OP, the relevant question is how many ovens/muffles there were across the entire history of Auschwitz during the period where Jews were interned there. (After all, the Chat bot is talking about the cremation of all Jews in the history of Auschwitz, not one specific period.) the question of overlap is secondary.

[fireofice]

Wanting the most efficient things possible does not indicate "homicidal intent". I'm sure if you introduced them to a futuristic laser gun that instantly vaporized bodies in 5 seconds, they would have been thrilled to have this as a solution to the problems they were having in the camp. They would probably even boast that this laser gun can vaporize so many bodies in an hour, they may even go back to the guy who gave them the gun and ask if he has one that can vaporize bodies in just one second. That would be even more convenient. None of that would prove anything about homicidal intent, it just shows they want to be done with this body disposal stuff as fast as possible so they can go onto other things.

[Whodunnit?]

Dr. E Michael Jones is extremly entertaining, but he's more of a quirky old man. His book on the Holocaust narrative will be interesting. He always stresses that it will be about the history of the narrative, not things like the capacity of the crematories. So he'll stick to what he's good at.

[Hektor]

Dr. E Michael Jones is extremly entertaining, but he's more of a quirky old man. His book on the Holocaust narrative will be interesting. He always stresses that it will be about the history of the narrative, not things like the capacity of the crematories. So he'll stick to what he's good at.

He still appears sharp as well as in good health.
And yes, the spotlight should be on the history of the narrative.... That's actually even more revealing than figuring out that the 'facts of the matter' don't add up. He should look at the campaign starting even before Hitler came to power. They didn't start out with "Hitler goes to gas all Jews"... but rather creating a Jewish victimhood narrative. Also, of the testimony in Nuremberg actually mentioned that some of the SA-man or rather people in SA-Uniforms were not part of the organization, hence came from outside. And those were the characters that harassed Jews.

[hermod]

You are being thoroughly silly; “significant” is a statistical term and you introduced it in order to justify your factual era. “Considerable” is a qualitative judgment, not a statistical term; and of course in this sense burning over 3k bodies is considerable.

We all make mistakes: you made a (fairly trivial one) when you said there was no overlap between Krema 1 and the Birkenau Kremas. How about we just move on instead of playing a childish semantical game to try to justify your mistake?

CuriousSoul made no mistake. The cremation of 3,000 corpses in 19 months was indeed insignificant regarding the alleged Holocaust. And the only childish semantical game I see here is your quibble about the words "insignificant" and "[not] considerable." Why should we move on when you've been caught trying to fool uninformed people with the old "52 ovens simultaneously cremating corpses at full speed and non-stop" exterminationist lie?

[hermod]

Another point: The maximum capacity for the cremas the Nazis envisioned (see Bischoff's 28 June 1943 letter) is significant, even if it wasn't reached it practice, because it points to the genocidal intent.

First off, this is not "Bischoff's letter". It is not signed by Bischoff and carries none of the insignia that would indicate it was ever filed and sent to the SS-WVHA in Berlin for Hans Kammler to see. Rather, it carries the signature of a mere SS-Sturmmann, indicating that it was probably a draft of a report that was later discarded or rewritten. Second of all, it's not even a letter, it's a handover protocol for the finalization of Crematorium III, handing over the responsibility of the building from the Zentralbauleitung to the Camp Administration. There is no bureaucratic reason for such a handover protocol to include wildly inflated numbers for the cremation capacity of all crematoria. During the Lipstadt Trial in Britain, even the judge questioned the veracity of this document, admitting that it bears a number of curious features which "raise the possibility that it is not authentic".

Interestingly, Pressac demonstrated decades ago that the numbers in this report bear a mathematical association to a draft-report written by Kurt Pruefer dating from October of 1941, before Birkenau was constructed, for cremation ovens that were never built. It is obviously impossible to ascertain why this document contained the numbers that it did, but it may safely be discarded on the basis of the fact that it is not factually accurate and clashes violently with other letters written by Bischoff and which bear his signature. But even if we pretended that the numbers are accurate, there is nothing proving that these theoretical capacities were ever reached; they represent mere numbers on a paper.

Can you imagine Bischoff finally compelled to tell a leader allegedly killing thousands of people every day: "Hi, Boss. Do you remember when I told you I could dispose of 5K corpses every day with crematory ovens? That was a big, fat lie and the camp is now littered with countless dead bodies rotting under the sun. Oops. Sorry for that one." ???

Trying to double cross Himmler with such a thing sounds like a very risky game, not to say a suicidal one, if I'm asked...

[Hektor]

....
Can you imagine Bischoff finally compelled to tell a leader allegedly killing thousands of people every day: "Hi, Boss. Do you remember when I told you I could dispose of 5K corpses every day with crematory ovens? That was a big, fat lie and the camp is now littered with countless dead bodies rotting under the sun. Oops. Sorry for that one." ???

Trying to double cross Himmler with such a thing sounds like a very risky game, not to say a suicidal one, if I'm asked...

Himmler was the leader and administrative head of the SS.
The SS did indeed also deal with liars, fraudsters, embezzlers in a rigorous way... That includes several concentration camp commanders like Koch and Florstedt.

Being wrong on figures was probably a minor offense, but a rather embarrassing one. Caught out SS-staff would probably have to look forward to less pleasant positions and employment.

[hermod]

....
Can you imagine Bischoff finally compelled to tell a leader allegedly killing thousands of people every day: "Hi, Boss. Do you remember when I told you I could dispose of 5K corpses every day with crematory ovens? That was a big, fat lie and the camp is now littered with countless dead bodies rotting under the sun. Oops. Sorry for that one." ???

Trying to double cross Himmler with such a thing sounds like a very risky game, not to say a suicidal one, if I'm asked...

Himmler was the leader and administrative head of the SS.
The SS did indeed also deal with liars, fraudsters, embezzlers in a rigorous way... That includes several concentration camp commanders like Koch and Florstedt.

Being wrong on figures was probably a minor offense, but a rather embarrassing one. Caught out SS-staff would probably have to look forward to less pleasant positions and employment.

The notorious antirevisionist writer Jean-Claude Pressac didn't call Bischoff's alleged letter on titanic crematory efficiency a mistake. He called it an "internal propaganda lie of the SS."

Die Welt, August 28, 2002 :

"Pressac calls SS-Bauleiter Bischoff's letter concerning the 'capacity' of the crematoria an 'internal propaganda lie of the SS.'
I expressed the view that doubt about the authenticity of the document is justified. There are several reasons for this."
- Sven Felix Kellerhoff (German historian & Chief Editor of Contemporary and Cultural History at Die Welt)

Disinformation, not misinformation.

Himmler was the leader and administrative head of the SS.

According to the Holohoax mythology, he was an insatiable 2-legged monster feeding on human flesh and babies' blood.