This is an interesting one I hadn't yet heard about.
It seems that, according to Norman Finkelstein, not only David Irving is "a Nazi" but -- an even more interesting revelation -- Raoul Hilberg, "the leading authority in the World on the Nazi Holocaust" is grateful to "the Holocaust deniers" because they unwittingly made him discover that all those Jews that he had thought had been murdered in the gas chambers with normal Zyklon B, were instead murdered only after the Nazis had "mixed it" (Finkelstein doesn't mention how, or with what, this "mixing" was achieved), because they couldn't have used Zyklon B in its pristine form to kill them...
Finkelstein's revelations come about a quarter way through the following Q&A session at Yale.
Q&A session:
- Windows Media version (82 MB)
- Real Player version (86 MB)
- Mp3 Audio version (12 MB)
Download here:
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/articl ... g=11&ar=99
Great stuff. I knew Finkelstein was a voluntary total ignoramus on the nuts and bolts of the "Holocaust" story, in spite of his exceptional interest in what he rightly calls the "Holocaust Industry." He usually introduces this "industrial part" of his favorite historical subject he claims he knows nothing about with a claim that his parents didn't get enough compensation as survivors, which is no doubt true.
Thus his proud moral position, up there in the lower cloudcuckooland of unrewarded Holocaustianity, is not only a totally ignorant one, but also, to say the least, a slightly hypocritical one (from the Gk. hypocrites: "the actor underneath").
As for Hilberg, we all know how the "leading authority in the World" was trashed by the Faurisson / Christie team in the Toronto trial and ran away ever since, in fear of any new confrontations. I was surprised to learn that he is still at it while in hiding, developing new imaginative theories to bring about the messianic ressurrection of the mass-murderous gas chambers...
Finkelstein meets Hilberg
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Finkelstein meets Hilberg
Last edited by ASMarques on Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Laurentz Dahl
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ASMarques wrote:they unwittingly made him discover that all those Jews that he had thought had been murdered in the gas chambers with normal Zyklon B, were instead murdered only after the Nazis had "mixed it"
Yeah, sure. There is no evidence whatsoever for the homicidal gassings except patently unreliable "eyewitness" testimony, and there is even less "proof" for the "mixing theory". Obviously it goes something like this: 1) There were homicidal gas chambers, but 2) the alleged "gas chambers" could not be used for homicidal gassings, ergo 3) the gassings took place, but in some kind of modified form... errrmm... let's say they mixed Zyklon B with something...
that made the homicidal gassings possible, and 4) if this vague bs "theory" does not make gassings a possibility, remember that point 1 is always correct... ASMarques wrote:As for Hilberg, we all know how the "leading authority in the World" was trashed by the Faurisson / Christie team in the Toronto trial and ran away ever since, in fear of any new confrontations. I was surprised to learn that he is still at it while in hiding, developing new imaginative theories to bring about the messianic ressurrection of the mass-murderous gas chambers...
Yes the old Pope of Holocaustianity continues to be revered as the great know-it-all of the "Destruction of European Jewry" (at least at University of Vermont), and occasionally some embarassing ramblings from a poor man approaching second childhood issues forth from his stalwart pen of Orthodox Sham-anism, as can be read about here:
http://vho.org/tr/2003/3/Graf344-350.html
Finkelstein has an emotional problem with revisionism. He simply cannot face it.
The same man who wrote "Articulating the key Holocaust dogmas, much of the literature on Hitler's Final Solution is worthless as scholarship. Indeed, the field of Holocaust studies is replete with nonsense, if not sheer fraud." ("The Holocaust Industry", page 55). Yet in the same book he unlimbers his famous nasty mouth to refer to revisionist writings as "crank publications" and calls Arthur Butz a "nonentity" apparently because his book "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century" was published by "an obscure press" - this after he had complained about his own works being shut out by the mainstream media. You would think he might have some sympathy. He has spewed out this kind of thing denigrating revisionists in a mindless way elsewhere too. I doubt that he has read Butz or any other serious revisionist material. He is truly illiterate on the subject as we have seen.
On reading his books, including his latest masterpiece "Beyond Chutzpah", skewering Alan Dershowitz and the "new anti-Semitism" (any criticism of Israel) one gets the impression that he is about 90% down the road to revisionism but fears so much being associated with it that he retreats into these silly "defense" mechanisms. He should be ashamed of himself. After all, what more can the Holocaust lobby do to him? They got him fired at City University in New York. He's now a professor at a former Catholic University in Chicago.
Finkelstein reveres Raul Hilberg, calling his book, "The Destruction of the European Jews" a masterpiece. You can be quite sure that he hasn't read Jurgen Graf's "The Giant with Feet of Clay" which, ahem, casts some doubt on Hilberg's book. He likes Hilberg because Hilberg once gave him a favorable review.
The same man who wrote "Articulating the key Holocaust dogmas, much of the literature on Hitler's Final Solution is worthless as scholarship. Indeed, the field of Holocaust studies is replete with nonsense, if not sheer fraud." ("The Holocaust Industry", page 55). Yet in the same book he unlimbers his famous nasty mouth to refer to revisionist writings as "crank publications" and calls Arthur Butz a "nonentity" apparently because his book "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century" was published by "an obscure press" - this after he had complained about his own works being shut out by the mainstream media. You would think he might have some sympathy. He has spewed out this kind of thing denigrating revisionists in a mindless way elsewhere too. I doubt that he has read Butz or any other serious revisionist material. He is truly illiterate on the subject as we have seen.
On reading his books, including his latest masterpiece "Beyond Chutzpah", skewering Alan Dershowitz and the "new anti-Semitism" (any criticism of Israel) one gets the impression that he is about 90% down the road to revisionism but fears so much being associated with it that he retreats into these silly "defense" mechanisms. He should be ashamed of himself. After all, what more can the Holocaust lobby do to him? They got him fired at City University in New York. He's now a professor at a former Catholic University in Chicago.
Finkelstein reveres Raul Hilberg, calling his book, "The Destruction of the European Jews" a masterpiece. You can be quite sure that he hasn't read Jurgen Graf's "The Giant with Feet of Clay" which, ahem, casts some doubt on Hilberg's book. He likes Hilberg because Hilberg once gave him a favorable review.
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code yellow
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I can't exactly remember the full story,but wasn't there some sort of lawsuit being put aggainst Finkelstien for his french edition of the holocaust industry?Maybe they(and we know who they are) got to him,just like they got to David Cole,and just like they are probably getting at Irving.Apparently Irving has had a curious change of heart concearning his writings,all of a sudden.
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Barrington James
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Norman Finkelstein and Noam Chomsky are walking a very fine line. They know that if they tell the truth about the holocaust they will be destroyed financially and perhaps beat up or killed. They have gotten away with their opinions only because they are Jews. However no one can tell the truth about the holocaust without paying the price. I am sure we can all recall what happened to David Cole and he was just a kid. Remember we are talking about an organization that supports soldiers who shoot out the eyes of tens year olds, murders teenagers who get lost coming home from school, uses helicopters to murder anyone they wish to in Palestine and controls Hollywood and the media of almost every country in the world. Do any of you expect either Zundel or Irving to ever get out of prison for their relatively benign comments made over 15 years ago? What would you do if you were Finkelstein?
You can fool too many of the people most of the time.
Barrington, while I'm prepared to cut Norman considerable slack because of his many good writings I would say that he could refrain from the nasty outbursts agaisnt revisionists if all he wanted was to avoid being aligned with them. He seems to go a uneeded step further. Foolish, aggressive, personal attacks. He could just say nothing and continue to expose the "Holocaust Industry" and the pro-Israel steamroller. It's the gratuitous attacks that I can't understand.
And as a leftist academic how can he NOT speak out against the stifling of free speech in the case of the European laws criminalizing revisionism which are in the public eye now with the recent arrests of David Irving and the others? It would be very powerful if he would do that and he would not be running much more risk than he endures at present since he is literally hated by the Holocaust establishment which tries to disrupt his appearances, get him banned from campuses, not published, etc.
I have to agree with those who say he is a bit, shall we say, inconsistent...to use the mildest term possible.
And as a leftist academic how can he NOT speak out against the stifling of free speech in the case of the European laws criminalizing revisionism which are in the public eye now with the recent arrests of David Irving and the others? It would be very powerful if he would do that and he would not be running much more risk than he endures at present since he is literally hated by the Holocaust establishment which tries to disrupt his appearances, get him banned from campuses, not published, etc.
I have to agree with those who say he is a bit, shall we say, inconsistent...to use the mildest term possible.
Radar,
I think you have failed to see the distinction in left wing/liberal policies and policies which are favorable to judeo-supremacism. While the judeo-supremacists generally support 'left' causes (afterall, they were essentially the parents and protectors of communism) because it serves their interests in eradicating local government and state rights, creating a more easily controlled 'central' government. The left are by far the most censorship prone, the most likely to eliminate US constitutional guarentees. Judeo-supremacists such as Finkelstein are fine with some free speech as long as that speech doesn't conflict with their special interests. That of course, means there is no real free speech.
Finkelstein, while challenging of some of the financial scams of the 'holocau$t' Industry, is really nothing more than another judeo-supremacist who is worried that 'holocau$t' overkill will ultimately lead people to the doorstep of Revisionism. His interest is in protecting the sacred mythology from further scrutiny, he sees the profits made as an Achille's heel that must be protected before Revisionist research finds fertile ground created by mainstream anger over these profits.
Finkelstein benefits mightily from the existence of the 'holocaust' mythology. Not only his personal attachment via the tales from his parents, but he gets royal treatment in Europe .... 'a son of survivors who dares to criticize money made from misery'. It's his claim to fame.
I don't think the Industry ultimately really minds Finkelstein that much. As long as the absurd temple of gas chambers lies are not beset upon, Finkelstain is useful. He still maintains the basic lies while engaging in speaking tours, interviews, and appeareances.
Just because the knuckle draggers of Hillel stage a big show about Finkelstein, he ultimately serves their interests and they know it ... well, as much as the neanderthals of Hillel can know anything.
- Hannover
I think you have failed to see the distinction in left wing/liberal policies and policies which are favorable to judeo-supremacism. While the judeo-supremacists generally support 'left' causes (afterall, they were essentially the parents and protectors of communism) because it serves their interests in eradicating local government and state rights, creating a more easily controlled 'central' government. The left are by far the most censorship prone, the most likely to eliminate US constitutional guarentees. Judeo-supremacists such as Finkelstein are fine with some free speech as long as that speech doesn't conflict with their special interests. That of course, means there is no real free speech.
Finkelstein, while challenging of some of the financial scams of the 'holocau$t' Industry, is really nothing more than another judeo-supremacist who is worried that 'holocau$t' overkill will ultimately lead people to the doorstep of Revisionism. His interest is in protecting the sacred mythology from further scrutiny, he sees the profits made as an Achille's heel that must be protected before Revisionist research finds fertile ground created by mainstream anger over these profits.
Finkelstein benefits mightily from the existence of the 'holocaust' mythology. Not only his personal attachment via the tales from his parents, but he gets royal treatment in Europe .... 'a son of survivors who dares to criticize money made from misery'. It's his claim to fame.
I don't think the Industry ultimately really minds Finkelstein that much. As long as the absurd temple of gas chambers lies are not beset upon, Finkelstain is useful. He still maintains the basic lies while engaging in speaking tours, interviews, and appeareances.
Just because the knuckle draggers of Hillel stage a big show about Finkelstein, he ultimately serves their interests and they know it ... well, as much as the neanderthals of Hillel can know anything.
- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.
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disillusioned
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Radar:
Noam is an anarchist. As such, it is part of his "religion" to believe that all states could easily (and quite naturally) evolve into genocidal regimes at some point.
The Nazi/Holocaust myth is "proof" of this tenet of faith, and thus proof that all forms of state are evil: i.e., Anarchism is good.
disillusioned
Noam is an anarchist. As such, it is part of his "religion" to believe that all states could easily (and quite naturally) evolve into genocidal regimes at some point.
The Nazi/Holocaust myth is "proof" of this tenet of faith, and thus proof that all forms of state are evil: i.e., Anarchism is good.
disillusioned
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Carto's Cutlass Supreme
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I'd recommend the Q and A session on Finkelstein's site. I watched most of it.
What's amazing is he mentions something to the effect that revisionists say they would have had to have mixed the zyklon B. I don't know what he's talking about. No revisionist I know of, has ever said that. That little piece in the Q and A section, is fascinating because it's so erroneous.
Few people can say what we're really about because what we're really about is very compelling.
Also, he ultimately greatly sticks up for David Irving.
What's amazing is he mentions something to the effect that revisionists say they would have had to have mixed the zyklon B. I don't know what he's talking about. No revisionist I know of, has ever said that. That little piece in the Q and A section, is fascinating because it's so erroneous.
Few people can say what we're really about because what we're really about is very compelling.
Also, he ultimately greatly sticks up for David Irving.
Hannover, it is rare day that I will differ with you. Norman Finkelstein is most certainly not a "judeo-supremicist". I hate to say this but I wonder if you have read his books? No judeo-supremicist could have written to critiques of Zionist and Israel policies and the misuse of the "anti-Semitism" cudgel that appears in his books "Beyond Chutzpah", "The Holocaust Industry", "A Nation on Trial", "Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict" and others. His harpooning of Wiesel, Dershowitz, Foxman, Wiesenthal and the rest is as good as any revisionist has done.
I admit that I am puzzled by what motivates him but it isn't "judeo-supremicism". He's not religiously motivated and he's no Zionist. He doesn't think Jews are racially superior. What is it that causes him to denigrate truth seekers about "the Holocaust"? Protecting his rear? Maybe. Dedication to his parents? Maybe.
I admit that I am puzzled by what motivates him but it isn't "judeo-supremicism". He's not religiously motivated and he's no Zionist. He doesn't think Jews are racially superior. What is it that causes him to denigrate truth seekers about "the Holocaust"? Protecting his rear? Maybe. Dedication to his parents? Maybe.
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Secret Anne X
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Raoul Hilberg, "the leading authority in the World on the Nazi Holocaust" is grateful to "the Holocaust deniers" because they unwittingly made him discover that all those Jews that he had thought had been murdered in the gas chambers with normal Zyklon B, were instead murdered only after the Nazis had "mixed it" (Finkelstein doesn't mention how, or with what, this "mixing" was achieved), because they couldn't have used Zyklon B in its pristine form to kill them...
Hi,
the only important thing here is that Hilberg says that Zyklon could never have worked on its own. That contradicts all the eyewitnesses.
Norm is a believer, and he loved his parents. I can't fault him for that.
Radar:
I believe your previous post supports my position on Finkelstein the supremacist:
These are the views of someone who considers the 'holocau$t' as sacred, beyond reproach. He may attack The Industry, but the cudgel of '6,000,000 & gas chambers' remains just that. I consider that the essence of someone is bound to a supremacist mythology that they can't bear to give up. And hey, it's fine if we do not agree on everything.
Regards, Hannover
I believe your previous post supports my position on Finkelstein the supremacist:
... he unlimbers his famous nasty mouth to refer to revisionist writings as "crank publications" and calls Arthur Butz a "nonentity" apparently because his book "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century" was published by "an obscure press" - this after he had complained about his own works being shut out by the mainstream media. You would think he might have some sympathy. He has spewed out this kind of thing denigrating revisionists in a mindless way elsewhere too. I doubt that he has read Butz or any other serious revisionist material. He is truly illiterate on the subject as we have seen.
Finkelstein reveres Raul Hilberg, calling his book, "The Destruction of the European Jews" a masterpiece.
These are the views of someone who considers the 'holocau$t' as sacred, beyond reproach. He may attack The Industry, but the cudgel of '6,000,000 & gas chambers' remains just that. I consider that the essence of someone is bound to a supremacist mythology that they can't bear to give up. And hey, it's fine if we do not agree on everything.
Regards, Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.
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Carto's Cutlass Supreme
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In his video lecture #1 at Yale, starting at minute 30, he talks about a knowledge about the world he once had, a product of studying and professors, and the big crisis he went through when he found out it was all false. He's nebulous about what he's talking about. He doesn't say. I think it's the holocaust.
Also, every good revisionist should know who Joan Peters is. Finkelstein speaks about Peters and it is so interesting and, metaphorically, directly related to the holocaust fraud.
--------------
Public figures have to deal with "polemics" whereas here at revforum we don't. Debate and Q and A is a chess game. With public figures, everything one says can be used against them for years. It's about stearing the boat one degree at a time. Here at revforum, we can stear the boat 90 degrees immediately.
MacDonald claims he's not a revisionist either. Finkelstein and MacDonald have to say that. Finkelstein's parents were at Auschwitz so they probably just told him it's a hoax. It might be that simple.
The Q and A section of that video gives a very good idea of the "polemical pressure" that happens to someone like Finkelstein.
The only way to really understand Finkelstein is by reading his own writing or by watching that video series. Because he has to play the polemic game so carefully, little quotes just don't work for him.
He's so good, that he shows you how to think in general.
Here at revforum, we take the "direct whole truth" approach. Finkelstein takes a different route. He'll claim the holocaust happened, but then say Elie Wiesel is a fraud. But imagine convincing an individual that Wiesel is a fraud: That could open a lot of doors of awareness for that person.
Finkelstein is "king" of close-reading of texts. And his big emphasis is to not consider the most canonical texts as necessarily true. These concepts are what revisionists are all about, and which the holocaust can't stand up to.
Also, every good revisionist should know who Joan Peters is. Finkelstein speaks about Peters and it is so interesting and, metaphorically, directly related to the holocaust fraud.
--------------
Public figures have to deal with "polemics" whereas here at revforum we don't. Debate and Q and A is a chess game. With public figures, everything one says can be used against them for years. It's about stearing the boat one degree at a time. Here at revforum, we can stear the boat 90 degrees immediately.
MacDonald claims he's not a revisionist either. Finkelstein and MacDonald have to say that. Finkelstein's parents were at Auschwitz so they probably just told him it's a hoax. It might be that simple.
The Q and A section of that video gives a very good idea of the "polemical pressure" that happens to someone like Finkelstein.
The only way to really understand Finkelstein is by reading his own writing or by watching that video series. Because he has to play the polemic game so carefully, little quotes just don't work for him.
He's so good, that he shows you how to think in general.
Here at revforum, we take the "direct whole truth" approach. Finkelstein takes a different route. He'll claim the holocaust happened, but then say Elie Wiesel is a fraud. But imagine convincing an individual that Wiesel is a fraud: That could open a lot of doors of awareness for that person.
Finkelstein is "king" of close-reading of texts. And his big emphasis is to not consider the most canonical texts as necessarily true. These concepts are what revisionists are all about, and which the holocaust can't stand up to.
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Mortimer McMuddle
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Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:"What's amazing is he mentions something to the effect that revisionists say they would have had to have mixed the zyklon B. I don't know what he's talking about. No revisionist I know of, has ever said that. That little piece in the Q and A section, is fascinating because it's so erroneous."
They might be confusing a delousing process through which Cyanocil was mixed with water, thus releasing cyanide gas for fumigation. Pressac's photo in the lower right from the Strutthof-Natzweiler camp in Alsace shows a funnel where a quantity of Cyanocil is poured in and a water tap opened a little. I'm not exactly sure how this was supposed to kill people unless the gas generator was in a separate room or something."
http://www.mazal.org/Pressac/Page%20Scans/Page015.jpg
Cyanocil is a cyanide-based pesticide whereby the dust is swept into cracks of buildings or ship holds and humidity causes it to release cyanide slowly and kill pests. It might be confused with Zyklon-B, although it is very different.
[EDIT: "Cyanosil" above should read "Calcid." My mistake. MM]
Last edited by Mortimer McMuddle on Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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