Polish Atrocities against Germans before 1. September 1939

[Moderator]

Mr. Toshiro:
By simple observation here's what you are doing:

- Saying thing's like 'It's my guess'.
- Questioning the meanings of words for which meanings are well known.
- Downplaying 'atrocities' which means a bit more than 'protest'.
- You're asked for the German text of a single speech by Goebbels and fail to produce it. But you admit that Goebbels mentions killing in that one speech.
- You ask for sources, but when they are given you ignore them and ask for 'documents', even though the document is referenced.
- You call everything 'propaganda' in today's context while ignoring the original meaning of the word as used by Goebbels when he was Minister of Propaganda.
- You say empty phrases like "get real' while not addressing issues.
- You say things like 'Put up, or shut up' when your opponents have put forth sources which you requested.
- You ignore the words of Degrelle, who has openly stated his position. Remember, you asked for 'sources' and many sources were provided. If you don't like them, then fine, but sources are what were asked for and sources are what you received.
- You ignore a modern source, a Bundeswehr officer, hardly a 'Nazi', even though you asked for sources.
- You say "there are "some" people out there who are doing everything possible to blame the Poles ..." When in fact none of the participants here said anything of the sort.
- You claim that a source presented by Mr. Haldan goes back into much earlier historical periods. Well, true enough, but that doesn't mean the period included within that Porter source, which is relevant to this thread, should be ignored. But you do ignore it.
- And you insinuate that the moderator is a basher of Poles, even though you have no such proof. And frankly, the moderator resents it.

This forum would be much better served if you ceased such methods. If you having nothing else to say, other than the above sorts of behavior, I suggest you call it a day.
Thanks, M1

[Hektor]

I'd appreciate, if we could stick to the subject. Sources have been provided, but the critique of them was nothing more then blanket statements. We would have to look in detail into them first.

[Jerzy Ulicki-Rek]

even in the one cited he does make note of three pre-war atrocities.

Certainly we are not equating anti-German protests with atrocities, are we?

Now, as far as I understand, this is the WWII revisionist forum, and one would of course expect in a thread titled: "Polish Atrocities against Germans before 1. September 1939" evidence for atrocities committed in a relatively close time-frame pertaining to WWII, a couple of years perhaps, but certainly not 20. I'm pretty sure this is what Hektor was after.

Now, if we go back far enough (since the 20's are considered "okay"), to the time of Prussia, between 1885 and 1915, the Poles experienced mass expulsions, discrimination and even more "atrocities" than the Germans ever did by the Poles. Surely one cannot then blame the Poles for their anti-German sentiment and accuse them of being "ruthless bullies" or whatever. They were practically asking for it for over 30 years. So I fail to see how these post-WWI atrocities are relevant, for they were simply a long overdue response to the Prussian atrocities. So if this is why the Germans justified the attack on Poland, maybe they should have thought about that before doing the same to the Poles 30 years ago.

As for the book "Dokumente polnischer Grausamkeiten," this wouldn't happen to be the book containing photos of the Bromberg Massacre, and a ridiculous claim of 58,000 victims, would it? And the English book wouldn't happen to be an English translation of said book, would it? This was an excellent propaganda book, a German version of Ehrenburg's Black Book, I would say. I haven't read it, but I bet it mentions no atrocities between 1930 and 1939 except for the Bromberg Massacre. Or am I mistaken?

Of all the crimes of World War II, one never hears about the wholesale massacres that occurred in Poland just before the war. Thousands of German men, women and children were massacred in the most horrendous fashion by press-enraged mobs. Hitler decided to halt the slaughter and he rushed to the rescue. Young German boys, when captured by the Poles, were castrated.

A ridiculous claim uttered for no other reason than propaganda. Not based on any documented evidence, I'm afraid. Worth as much as Irene Zisblatt's diamond story.

I'm open to the idea of Poland attacking first, on August 31st, the German army, if any such evidence will be submitted, but this search for "Polish atrocities" against innocent Germans prior WWII (not 20 years before...) will produce no results, as no massacres of innocent Germans happened before September 1939.

The "evidence" so far is a German propaganda book and its translation (that don't talk about any atrocities in the 30's, except for the one after WWII, I presume) and a ridiculous statement not backed by any evidence. The post-WWI happenings are irrelevant, unless one is desperate and will take any scraps he/she can find, in which case he/she will be limited to post-WWI activities only. But that would make one a hypocrite, by ignoring the very same things the Germans did to the Poles 30 years before.

So, let's stick to "atrocities" in a moderate time-frame before WWII. Fair is fair, after all.

I do agree with Toshiro.
First: because only the truth is interesting,second:because I'm a Pole:)
I will be glad if we can get more information on this subject.
Statement like:"Thousands of German men, women and children were massacred in the most horrendous fashion by press-enraged mobs. Hitler decided to halt the slaughter and he rushed to the rescue. Young German boys, when captured by the Poles, were castrated." on it's own are not good enough and carry a smell of shrunken heads in Buchenwald.

Jerzy

[Hannover]

I do agree with Toshiro.
First: because only the truth is interesting,second:because I'm a Pole:)
I will be glad if we can get more information on this subject.
Statement like:"Thousands of German men, women and children were massacred in the most horrendous fashion by press-enraged mobs. Hitler decided to halt the slaughter and he rushed to the rescue. Young German boys, when captured by the Poles, were castrated." on it's own are not good enough and carry a smell of shrunken heads in Buchenwald.

Jerzy

I think the issue here is that Toshiro wanted sources for such claims, thinking there were no sources, but sources were in fact brought forward. IMO, the issue of Polish atrocities against Germans is believable, but I'm not losing any sleep over the subject. With the way the Germans are demonized I doubt we'll ever get past the bias against them that is so prevalent in today's story telling.
I certainly hope you are not questioning Bromberg too, Jerzy. Yes I know, it's beyond the scope of this thread, but it does indicate that Poles were not saints in their treatment of ethnic Germans. And your being a native Pole may indicate a conflict of interest in this discussion.

Having said all of that, my main point of emphasis is that there are two sides to the 'helpless Poles' story that is so promoted in our directed history.

Always interested in your views.

- Hannover

[Hektor]

...
I think the issue here is that Toshiro wanted sources for such claims, thinking there were no sources, but sources were in fact brought forward. IMO, the issue of Polish atrocities against Germans is believable, but I'm not losing any sleep over the subject. With the way the Germans are demonized I doubt we'll ever get past the bias against them that is so prevalent in today's story telling.
....

Given that other minorities, like the Ukrainians were also persecuted in interwar Poland, I found this generally believable as well. I just don't buy the figures sometimes given for that and I find many of the claims poorly proven. That's why I am asking for sources and verification.

Toshiro got over the top offensive on the issue and he also tried to derail the debate.

[deathbat182]

Haha, I was browsing google to perhaps find some German propoganda towards Poles in WW2. This "bromberg massacre" as Hanns calls it was the one of the most heinous propaganda cover-ups that Germany did during WW2.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1939)


To sum things up: While Germany was invading, they had spies in Poland to add another form of disruption to the chaos. These plains clothed German spies would shoot at Polish partisans, and were killed. Other ethnic germans were killed in the crossfire -- thus fueling the "excuse" of Poles killing civilian germans.

There was simply zero wrong-doing on the Pole's part. This "58k germans dead" all came from Nazi's mouth's. That couldn't possibly be unbiased, could it?

[Hannover]

Note that the thread says "before 1. September 1939", the Polish massacre of Germans at Bromberg was Sept. 3-4.

Anyway, big talk deathbat, is this your best shot?
Where's your proof of such nonsense?

Now please show us the mass graves which are claimed and locations supposedly known.
As I expected, nothing.

As far as Wikipedia goes and speaking of "biased", Zionists who alter the Wiki texts lie through their teeth
see:
Jewish Internet Defense Force
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Int ... ense_Force
and:
Zionist Wikipedia Editing Course
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/139189

Oops.

Just like the 'holocaust' nonsense, all propaganda, no proof.
Haha.

- Hannover

[Moderator]

deathbat:
As previously mentioned, this thread deals with "Polish Atrocities against Germans before 1. September 1939".
And BTW, your crude name calling, which we consider a sign of weakness, is not acceptable here.
Please read all of our basic guidelines: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7267
examples:

No name calling, period.

The WWII Europe / Atlantic Theater Revisionist Forum forbids any threats or personal attacks against others, we will not tolerate links to sites which do engage in such behavior. We're about debate and only debate.

On topic posts only. The topic of the Forum is the lead-in to hostilities, WWII itself, and the immediate results of WWII. Associated subjects are bound to come up, be sure there is a tie-in, show the tie-in. Each thread represents a separate point, a post to a thread must be pertinent to that point.

Thanks, M1

[cold beer]

Funny, there are "some" people out there who are doing everything possible to blame the Poles and accuse them of being mindless aggressors against innocent Germans all the time. I'm not so sure why, or what the motive behind this would be.

I could not agree with you more.
I'd expect revisionists to be the least likely audience to see this as plausible.

Nothing can convince me that this type of mob violence (rape, murder, castrations etc) committed by Poles against Germans (or vise versa) requires anything other than an extreme circumstance.
I do believe that attacks against German populations in these areas triggered the invasion of Poland.
I don't believe we have anything close to the real or full story here.

I read an article a few weeks back written by a Pole who believes that the aggressions were triggered by Nazi agents, seeking to create a pretext to invade Poland.
That wasn't convincing to me.
I've also read claims that jewish led communist groups were behind the attacks in order to leave the Germans no choice but to invade.
That fits seemlessly with the run up to the war.

[Lamprecht]

Here's more from Goebbels' New Year address:

On 25 August Poland further intensified the situation by firing on a German plane with a Reich Secretary on board on international airspace.
[...]
German consulates reported 55 instances between 25 and 31 August of the most serious Polish attacks on ethnic Germans. Polish troops committed a series of serious border violations on 31 August.

Some more info on Poles shooting German planes:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=11383#p92169

[Lamprecht]

Richard Blanke, Orphans of Versailles – The Germans in Western Poland 1918-1939

Google Books (Preview): https://books.google.com/books?id=80r6M ... frontcover
A review of the book: https://archive.is/zk7dA
HMSendeavour also quotes some passages from the book in the following thread: viewtopic.php?t=12331#p92129

In this book, Blanke analyzes the situation that led to Polish massacres of ethnic Germans in August-September 1939. He concludes that about 5,000 Germans were killed by local Poles and organized death squads, in comparison to the German study which puts the death toll at 58,000. It is probably somewhere in the middle.

There is also a first-hand account of government-organized Polish atrocities and massacres in Eastern Poland during early September 1939 (against both ethnic Germans and Ukrainians):
George Nepomuk, Hell's mouth: confessions of Count Nepomuk (pages 13-15) https://books.google.com/books/about/He ... 0yAQAAIAAJ

[Lamprecht]

Some news clippings from before 1 Sept. 1939 on the Polish-German situation. They are from British newspapers so there tends to be an obvious anti-German bias, but still some revealing information can be found as the war had not yet actually broken out at this point.

[marekfreethought]

Hi all, it has been a very interesting read. I am new here. I am Polish but i am not going to defend a lie. I have read about these atrocities in many sources, many included in this thread and as far as I can tell, the atrocities really happened. Probably many pre-WWII were unreported so the extent of the violence could have been even worse than cited in the discussed sources. So yes, many innocent German civilians were killed by Poles.

[miket]

Video of Hitlers Speech.
Hitler Speech - Danzig Bromberg - The Massacres of Ethnic Germans in Poland

https://archive.org/details/hitlerspeec ... nsinpoland

Reference to the Bromberg Massacre in Louis Marschalko's book. The World Conquerors, The Real War Criminals 1958.
Page 58
https://ia800306.us.archive.org/19/item ... 8--OCR.pdf

German White Paper referred to in above book.

https://www.allworldwars.com/German%20White%20Book.html

[miket]

Correction to previous post; P.80

Reference to the Bromberg Massacre in Louis Marschalko's book. The World Conquerors, The Real War Criminals 1958.
Page 80
https://ia800306.us.archive.org/19/item ... 8--OCR.pdf