Simple challenge for HistorySpeaks

[Lamprecht]

HistorySpeaks - can you show us that at any of the claimed "extermination camps" that there are mass graves full of human remains in quantities that are inconsistent with the positions of "Holocaust deniers"?

Can you show us a single "huge mass grave" from Treblinka 2, Sobibor, or Belzec that has been proven to contain just 0.1% of the remains of the claimed 1.5m+ victims?

You did not respond to my previous challenge here: viewtopic.php?p=105040#p105040

Maybe you missed it? If not, I wonder how you deal with the fact that there is no physical or material evidence in existence that supports your ridiculous "Holocaust" conspiracy theory.

[Otium]

Lamprecht, it would be a simple challenge if the claims were true. Fortunately for the Jewish people, they're not.

[HistorySpeaks]

HistorySpeaks - can you show us that at any of the claimed "extermination camps" that there are mass graves full of human remains in quantities that are inconsistent with the positions of "Holocaust deniers"?

Can you show us a single "huge mass grave" from Treblinka 2, Sobibor, or Belzec that has been proven to contain just 0.1% of the remains of the claimed 1.5m+ victims?

You did not respond to my previous challenge here: viewtopic.php?p=105040#p105040

Maybe you missed it? If not, I wonder how you deal with the fact that there is no physical or material evidence in existence that supports your ridiculous "Holocaust" conspiracy theory.

I will answer, but first I want to observe that your alleged need for "physical evidence" of what happened to the Jews is hypocritical. After all, you show no concern whatever with the complete absence of physical evidence for the alleged "resettlement" of 2 million Jews "transited" through the Reinhardt camps.

The leading deniers, Rudolf, Mattogno, Mike Enoch, etc, all claim that the 'disappeared' 2 million Jews sent through the Reinhardt camps were resettled. But common sense requires us to reject this, since there would be some kind of infrastructural, communicative, or economic residue of a "settlement" (country, really) of 2 million people that existed in the 1940s.

[Lamprecht]

I will answer, but first I want to observe that your alleged need for "physical evidence" of what happened to the Jews is hypocritical. After all, you show no concern whatever with the complete absence of physical evidence for the alleged "resettlement" of 2 million Jews "transited" through the Reinhardt camps.

People moving around does not leave physical evidence. Your position makes no sense. If I mail someone a treasure chest and tell them to bury it in their backyard, there is no physical evidence of it moving around. The physical evidence would be the presence of a treasure chest buried in their backyard.
The best we could get is documentary evidence, like shipping receipts. But this was before everything was digital, so such documents could be lost/destroyed or even fabricated. It just so happens that the documents we would expect to exist for these camps (regardless of whether or not the prisoners were killed or further transited) can not be shown to exist.

The leading deniers, Rudolf, Mattogno, Mike Enoch, etc, all claim that the 'disappeared' 2 million Jews sent through the Reinhardt camps were resettled. But common sense requires us to reject this, since there would be some kind of infrastructural, communicative, or economic residue of a "settlement" (country, really) of 2 million people that existed in the 1940s.

That's not true at all. Common sense would dictate that if hundreds of thousands were gassed, burned, and dumped into pits at specific locations that this would result in millions of pounds of burnt human remains. And it is indeed claimed that massive pits full of the remains of thousands of people are buried in precisely known locations at Treblinka 2, Sobibor, and Belzec. Yet these allegedly "proven to exist" huge mass graves are never actually shown to exist. At best, we see a handful of pits with the remains of a dozen or fewer people in them, which is not inconsistent with a minority of prisoners dying in transit, such as from disease.

Besides, all of the "Survivors" are proof that there was no extermination policy, since they would have been killed if there was.

Anyway, I await your answer to the challenge in the OP.

[Otium]

The other issue of course, is that the Jews were held in transit (camps), fled, or escaped after the war. I don't recall any revisionists claiming that there were fully fledged settlements. What went on during the war was merely preparations for these settlements. Thus it's nonsensical to claim that there must be physical evidence for them.

We actually have "communicative" facts in abundance, they're the discussion of all the most important "Holocaust" documents which all mention deporting the Jews to the east and resettling them in some sense or another.

[HistorySpeaks]

Okay, in response to OP's challenge.

Consider the archaeological investigations/digs by Kola et al at Belzec between 1997 and 2000. Kola et al identified 33 mass graves. It should be noted at the outset that this is a bizarre number of mass graves for a "transit camp" where (on the revisionist/denier account) the Jews supposedly stayed only fleetingly

As Kola writes, he declined to drill all the way into the mass graves, apparently because he didn't want to drill into "more or less full human corpses."* So he neither was able to excavate all the remains, i.e. conduct the kind of "skull count" that OP is absurdly asking for; nor was he able to traverse the entire mass graves. It is also quite possible that Kola missed some other mass graves in Belzec.

Even so, Mattogno acknowledges that the 33 mass graves uncovered by Kola could be "sufficient to inter (21,310×8=) 170,480 corpses."** This estimate is far too small (to get his low estimate, Mattogno absurdly over-estimates the average weight of starved ghettoized Jews arriving at Belzec), but it is still far more than your "0.1%".

The Nazi creation in Belzec of mass graves with enough room for hundreds of thousands of Jews is vastly more compatible with the extermination thesis than the "transit camp" one.

*http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/05/carlo-mattogno-on-belzec.html (I was unable to find the original book so am going off of this HC blog for quotes from Kola)

**http://vho.org/dl/ENG/b.pdf

[Lamprecht]

Consider the archaeological investigations/digs by Kola et al at Belzec between 1997 and 2000. Kola et al identified 33 mass graves. It should be noted at the outset that this is a bizarre number of mass graves for a "transit camp" where (on the revisionist/denier account) the Jews supposedly stayed only fleetingly

OK please show us these alleged huge mass graves. Simply writing about them and drawing pictures doesn't fly. Anyone could do that

As Kola writes

The standard practice is to excavate and photograph:

Mass grave excavation guidelines / The "Mass grave excavations don't produce photographed bodies" lie
viewtopic.php?t=12889

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/05/carlo-mattogno-on-belzec.html

I checked your link and didn't see any photographs of these alleged mass graves.
Can you post any photographic evidence supporting the existence of these alleged huge mass graves?
Or are we just supposed to blindly believe anything this Kola guy tells us?

[Lamprecht]

but it is still far more than your "0.1%"

Great, if there's some massive quantity of human remains in exactly known locations at this camp, then it should be easy enough to show a photograph (standard practice when making claims of "discovering mass graves") of just one single "huge mass grave" with 0.1% of the claimed 1.5m+

[Waldgänger]

The leading deniers, Rudolf, Mattogno, Mike Enoch, etc, all claim that the 'disappeared' 2 million Jews sent through the Reinhardt camps were resettled. But common sense requires us to reject this, since there would be some kind of infrastructural, communicative, or economic residue of a "settlement" (country, really) of 2 million people that existed in the 1940s.

Forgive me, I am not Lamprecht, but I do not personally agree with the leading deniers here. My belief is that these supposed resettled people never actually existed in the first place. Whether the Reinhardt numbers are real (German numbers made up to satisfy the SS), fake (made up by Allied propaganda), doctored (ditto), or describe something different from what we assume, they does not necessarily reflect mainstream explanations.

Even if the Nazi government attempted to resettle so many people East, the Eastern front collapsed very quickly in 1943-1944, and so many people dispersed or were possibly lost in a sea of typhus, Soviet shelling/bombing, or whatever. We must remember that very soon after WW2, the Iron Curtain fell, and many Jews went also to America, or Israel. One Jew not being able to contact her grandmother, or her grandmother not being able to find traces of her granddaughter, is not outside the realm of possibility in this situation. One could be in the USSR, one in Brazil, one in Mongolia. Millions of Jews went all over the world in 1945-1950.

Does anyone know the Jewish population of the area that would become Israel in 1945, vs. 1950, vs. 1960, for example?

[Waldgänger]

OK please show us these alleged huge mass graves. Simply writing about them and drawing pictures doesn't fly. Anyone could do that

Don't be silly, everyone knows they're there. The memorial stones and plaques say so! Besides, it would be disrespectful to disturb the dead just for some crank.

[borjastick]

HistorySpeaks - can you show us that at any of the claimed "extermination camps" that there are mass graves full of human remains in quantities that are inconsistent with the positions of "Holocaust deniers"?

Can you show us a single "huge mass grave" from Treblinka 2, Sobibor, or Belzec that has been proven to contain just 0.1% of the remains of the claimed 1.5m+ victims?

You did not respond to my previous challenge here: viewtopic.php?p=105040#p105040

Maybe you missed it? If not, I wonder how you deal with the fact that there is no physical or material evidence in existence that supports your ridiculous "Holocaust" conspiracy theory.

I will answer, but first I want to observe that your alleged need for "physical evidence" of what happened to the Jews is hypocritical. After all, you show no concern whatever with the complete absence of physical evidence for the alleged "resettlement" of 2 million Jews "transited" through the Reinhardt camps.

The leading deniers, Rudolf, Mattogno, Mike Enoch, etc, all claim that the 'disappeared' 2 million Jews sent through the Reinhardt camps were resettled. But common sense requires us to reject this, since there would be some kind of infrastructural, communicative, or economic residue of a "settlement" (country, really) of 2 million people that existed in the 1940s.

Not in post war Soviet Russia who benefited greatly from the myth of the six million dead jews arrangement and whose simple task at Nuremberg was to paint the Nazis as the worst criminals ever to walk this earth.

Are you really serious that in cold war Europe Russia would offer proof of millions of jews who were sent east?

This is of course the same Commie regime that killed all the Polish offices and men in Katyn and then blamed Germany and which up until very recently claimed the skull fragment they hold is that of Hitler even though it was shown to be from a female.

[HistorySpeaks]

HistorySpeaks - can you show us that at any of the claimed "extermination camps" that there are mass graves full of human remains in quantities that are inconsistent with the positions of "Holocaust deniers"?

Can you show us a single "huge mass grave" from Treblinka 2, Sobibor, or Belzec that has been proven to contain just 0.1% of the remains of the claimed 1.5m+ victims?

You did not respond to my previous challenge here: viewtopic.php?p=105040#p105040

Maybe you missed it? If not, I wonder how you deal with the fact that there is no physical or material evidence in existence that supports your ridiculous "Holocaust" conspiracy theory.

I will answer, but first I want to observe that your alleged need for "physical evidence" of what happened to the Jews is hypocritical. After all, you show no concern whatever with the complete absence of physical evidence for the alleged "resettlement" of 2 million Jews "transited" through the Reinhardt camps.

The leading deniers, Rudolf, Mattogno, Mike Enoch, etc, all claim that the 'disappeared' 2 million Jews sent through the Reinhardt camps were resettled. But common sense requires us to reject this, since there would be some kind of infrastructural, communicative, or economic residue of a "settlement" (country, really) of 2 million people that existed in the 1940s.

Not in post war Soviet Russia who benefited greatly from the myth of the six million dead jews arrangement and whose simple task at Nuremberg was to paint the Nazis as the worst criminals ever to walk this earth.

Are you really serious that in cold war Europe Russia would offer proof of millions of jews who were sent east?

This is of course the same Commie regime that killed all the Polish offices and men in Katyn and then blamed Germany and which up until very recently claimed the skull fragment they hold is that of Hitler even though it was shown to be from a female.

First, contrary to what many of you seem to believe, the USSR did not want to promote the Holocaust. In fact, the USSR censored the Holocaust, because the idea that Jews were made to suffer a special fate contradicted the "Great Patriotic War" narrative, of Soviet citizens suffering and sacrificing together, which the Soviet Union favored. Hence the Soviet Union censored books about Baba Yar and other Holocaust topics, and the edition of Pravda published after the liberation of Auschwitz didn't mention the fact that the camp's victims were predominately Jews.

Second, the USSR was extremely rigorous in documenting the movement of people in and to various parts of its territory. That is how we know so much about the deportations of the Chechens, Balkars, the Volga Germans, the Crimean Tatars, and other groups ethnically cleansed and brutalized by Stalin.

[borjastick]

First, contrary to what many of you seem to believe, the USSR did not want to promote the Holocaust. In fact, the USSR censored the Holocaust, because the idea that Jews were made to suffer a special fate contradicted the "Great Patriotic War" narrative, of Soviet citizens suffering and sacrificing together, which the Soviet Union favored. Hence the Soviet Union censored books about Baba Yar and other Holocaust topics, and the edition of Pravda published after the liberation of Auschwitz didn't mention the fact that the camp's victims were predominately Jews.

Second, the USSR was extremely rigorous in documenting the movement of people in and to various parts of its territory. That is how we know so much about the deportations of the Chechens, Balkars, the Volga Germans, the Crimean Tatars, and other groups ethnically cleansed and brutalized by Stalin.
Top

Complete bollocks and you know it. The Russians were engaged in the great patriotic war against Germany, those who got killed or died in the camps etc were simply the meat in the sandwich. I also don't think they hid anything about the jews dying if they could pin it on Germany. The reason they said little about Babi Yar is because it didn't happen. Auschwitz was a gift to these Russian propagandists who wanted to come over as the great liberators of Hitler's fascism. Didn't last long because Churchill etc soon saw right through the Russians. The Russians had no problem blaming everything on Germany and rather than share the pain with jews they just aimed all the lies and fake documents at Nuremberg so they could look like just and courageous in the face of a terrible enemy.

[EtienneSC]

Hence the Soviet Union censored books about Baba Yar and other Holocaust topics, and the edition of Pravda published after the liberation of Auschwitz didn't mention the fact that the camp's victims were predominately Jews.

The Soviets did indeed censor at least one book about Babi Yar, but it was still published in the USSR in edited form. Babi Yar: A Document in the Form of a Novel by Anatoly Kuznetsov came out in 1966. Kuznetsov fled to the West and an unexpurgated version was published in the UK in 1970. He claimed 200,000 were killed.

[jarno]

HistorySpeaks wrote:

Consider the archaeological investigations/digs by Kola et al at Belzec between 1997 and 2000. Kola et al identified 33 mass graves. It should be noted at the outset that this is a bizarre number of mass graves for a "transit camp" where (on the revisionist/denier account) the Jews supposedly stayed only fleetingly

As Mattogno notes in "Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec", the 33 mass graves have arbitrary delineation. For example, in pit (1), out of a total of 20 boreholes, 13 register positive for human remains and 7 register negative. What Mattogno concludes from this is that rather than being a mass grave there are actually three smaller adjacent graves. And he gives others examples as well. But the point is that Kola's derivation of 33 mass graves is probably fraught with errors. So much so that Mattogno states that the actual area of the graves are probably 50% of the 5,500 square meters that Kola claims. As Kola himself states: "One cannot exclude, however, that several of them (reported as graves of a big volume) were previously some separated smaller ones." Another rendition is drawn by Robin O'Neil. You'll notice how strangely the so-called mass graves are shaped. Because of this it's fair to assume that they probably weren't mass graves at all, but smaller ones that had been disturbed by digging.

Mattogno 2021, pp. 200-203.