co bottles / gas vans

[Scott]

Since when did SS members "prefer" to call themselves anything other than what was officially designated by the SS?

pradel was offically designated MAJOR and only had a so called equivelent ss rank.

His 'police rank'? That won't work either, the RSHA was part of the SS.

the police too. the ordinary police - criminal police was part of the RSHA anyway - was one of several main offices (hauptamt) of himmlers ss. this is why pradel could use an equivelent ss ranks for policemen. now,pradel called himself with his original rank major and was adressed as such by his comrades in the RSHA....!!! no forger, its just his rank...

"SS-Sturmbannführer und Major der Schutzpolizei, Gendarmerie & Feuerschutzpolizei."

[Hannover]

Germania:
It's interesting that both Rauff & Becker (mentioned in prior posts) were in the RSHA and only used SS rank designations. Are we then to assume that "Major" Pradel was a special case?

And, cutting to the chase, the document is necessarily a forgery since there were no 'gas vans', you can't show me a photo of one, or a drawing of one, or any 'documents' which aren't easily debunked by Revisionists.

- H.

[Sailor]

i see not a reason why co bottles should be found if true.i consider the ss so intelligent to sent the bottles back to the manufacture after use, dont you think so???

Do we know who manufactured and bottled the gas? Did any documents survive, like orders, billings, receipts?
Just asking.
Gas bottles are usually sent back to the manufacturer when they are empty, not when still half full.

also, i found this document: http://www.holocaust-history.org/194203 ... nderwagen/

For some reason I got into a different article of THH Project in my earlier message, which is not relevant to the discussion.

there it reads: "I request that you use steel bottles with carbon monoxide or respectively other remedies to get things started.".

This quotation is not clear to me. As is the whole letter. What does he need carbon monoxide for? What other remedies and what things have to be started? What is he talking about?
Do we know of other correspondence which is part of the exchange?

"Q: Where was that carbon monoxide obtained, by what process?

A: It was in a compressed gas container, like a steel oxygen container, such as is used for welding - a hollow steel container."

But Brach did not say where the gas was obtained. If they used it, the gas must have been in a gas bottle. I don’t think that it is carried in a grocery bag.

1:0 for euthanasia gassing!!!

But the referenced letter does not say anything about euthanasia. The THHP article did, but those people don’t know what they are talking about anyway. They are wishful thinkers.

what do you mean "to show"????? ask yourselve, if it were true, do we expect bottles to show? in other words is it likely that the ss forgot the bottles in the eutanasie institutes??? no...and honestly, it is absurd! infact,if we had bottles i would strongly doubt in their authenticy since it is just absurd that the ss left the bottles in the eutanasie institutes for months or even years!!!

When the places known for euthanasia, like “Sonnenschein” or others, were liberated, the Americans or whoever did the liberating may have found bottles with CO, if that was used for euthanasia. Since that stuff plays now such an important part in the Holocaust story, there must have been quite a few of these bottles around, and normally one does not return these steel bottles when they are still half full. So to me it does not seem so absurd that some of these CO bottles were found at that time.

assuming for the sake of argument it happened, is it likely that the ss forgot the bottles in the eutanasie institutes??? yes or no??? do you think the ss was stupid, yes or no???

If someone within the SS committed a criminal offence, say he murdered a person with CO, then it stands to reason that he probably tried to do away with the murder weapon.
But euthanasia of incurable mentally or physically disabled people was in Germany legal, at least for some time. If the euthanasia should have been performed with CO, why should anyone of the SS try to hide these bottles?

[Scott]

Germania:
It's interesting that both Rauff & Becker (mentioned in prior posts) were in the RSHA and only used SS rank designations. Are we then to assume that "Major" Pradel was a special case?

The Waffen-SS was under Wehrmacht command and necessarily used equivalent Heer rankings in addition to the usual ranks of the Allgemeine SS, particularly with the higher ranks that dealt with other services.

In addition, the German police used paramilitary ranks like the army and similar uniforms as the Heer. When the SS incorporated the criminal police they added SS or SD insignia to existing police uniforms which can easily be mistaken for Wehrmacht uniforms and collars if one is not careful. It is common to see what looks like a Wehrmacht uniform with an SD diamond on the pocket or sleeve, for example.

Otto Ohlendorf's full rank was:

SS-Gruppenführer und Generalleutnant der Polizei.

Reinhard Heydrich's was:

SS-Obergruppenführer und General der Waffen-SS und Polizei.

Ernst Kaltenbrunner's was:

SS-Obergruppenführer und General der Waffen-SS und Polizei.

Here are two combat commanders for comparison...

Josef "Sepp" Dietrich:

SS-Oberst-Gruppenfuhrer und Panzer-Generaloberst der Waffen-SS.

Paul Hausser:

SS-Oberst-Gruppenführer und Generaloberst der Waffen-SS.

And here are two WVHA commanders for comparison; they are nominally in the Waffen-SS but are not combat commanders nor police officers.

Oswald Pohl:

SS-Obergruppenführer und General der Waffen-SS.

Dr.-Ing. Hans Kammler:

SS-Obergruppenführer und General der Waffen-SS.

Thus an SS-Sturmbannführer could easily be a Major in the police and might go by either title in correspondence.

"SS-Sturmbannführer und Major der Schutzpolizei, Gendarmerie & Feuerschutzpolizei."

Hope that helps.

[Hannover]

I'll accept the possibility that Pradel could have designated himself as 'major', but as mentioned, other RSHA's used offical SS designations.
It would be helpful to see other documents that Pradel is alleged to have to signed. The point is not worth going to war over though, the real point of emphasis was/is the absurdity of the alleged homicidal 'gas vans' and alleged 'CO gas in welding tanks' used for euthanasia or any other killing.

- Hannover

[Scott]

The point is not worth going to war over though, the real point of emphasis was/is the absurdity of the alleged homicidal 'gas vans' and alleged 'CO gas in welding tanks' used for euthanasia or any other killing.

I don't know of CO being used for welding gas, unlike CO2 (which is used to weld aluminum) or other inert gases used as flux for specialized welding. Normally welding uses oxygen and acetylene, with oxygen especially to cut red-hot metal. Acetylene is made from calcium carbide and water (as used in old-fashioned miner's lamps) and the bottled gas was in extremely short supply during the war. It is therefore possible that some other combustible gas (such as CO) was used for welding, along with O2 and sometimes CO2. One thing about CO is that it must be pressurized quite a bit to store a usable amount, as it does not liquify at room temperature under pressure, unlike CO2. But finding any tank of welding gas and calling that a smoking-gun is absurd. For one thing we don't know if it really contained CO or something else. And to fill anything but the smallest gaschamber would require quite a bit of bottled CO, which would be expensive to transport. CO on the other hand is one of the cheapest gases to generate, and burning waste wood will do. Furthermore, at Monowitz, an I.G. Farben synthetic oil plant where SS concentration camp labor was used only FOUR miles from Birkenau, there would have been plenty of available industrial CO for tankage or gassings. Yet here the SS chose to use its much-needed Zyklon insecticide for homicidal gassings.

[Germania]

Do we know who manufactured and bottled the gas?

the steel bottles were manufactured by mannesmann and the gas was filled by ig farben. the bottles were not ordered directly by hitlers office but by the chemistry department of the criminal police. regarding this it corresponds that this letter requesting co steel bottles is adressed to the criminal police ("to the Criminal Technical Institute at the Reich Criminal Police Office"). so the letter makes perfectly sense.

Did any documents survive, like orders, billings, receipts?

there seems correspondence left in the basf archive.

What does he need carbon monoxide for?

guess....?

When the places known for euthanasia, like “Sonnenschein” or others, were liberated, the Americans or whoever did the liberating may have found bottles with CO, if that was used for euthanasia.

why??? the gassing was stoped loooooong before "liberation" and there was plenty of time to get rid of the bottles.

If the euthanasia should have been performed with CO, why should anyone of the SS try to hide these bottles?

because it was illegal (though ordered by hitler who trumped any law), because it was secret, because it was killing , because it was a shame, because there was no reason to present any evidence for history.

[Sailor]

because it was illegal (though ordered by hitler who trumped any law), because it was secret, because it was killing , because it was a shame, because there was no reason to present any evidence for history.

We are not talking about the morality aspect of euthanasia? In that case I am out. The next thing then would be abortion, which some people here in the US also consider as murder.


The question is: Was euthanasia legal in Germany at a certain time during that period? And if it was legal as long as certain rules were followed, how can it legally be criminal?

It is true that in 1938 Hitler signed an order for "mercy killing" after considering the anguished pleas of two parents begging him to allow euthansia for their son, who was born severely deformed. The family's name was Knauer. The grandmother of the child also pleaded with the German Fuehrer to permit euthanasia. Hitler reluctantly gave his permission only after the case was thoroughly investigated and upon the recommendation of physicians. Hitler received many other pleas of this nature, another being submitted by a man who had been blinded and severly disfigured after falling into a cement mixer.

The Nazi Euthanasia program was never designed for indiscriminate application. If abuses occurred in the administration of this program, such abuses were clearly outside the scope of the decree. Popular protest did indeed result in abandoning the euthanasia program entirely, by direct order of Hitler himself. What remains to be considered is the fact that the German program, when in operation, rested upon a solid legal foundation, Hitler sought the advice of Hans Lammers, who was the government's legal advisor. Mr. Lammer's office was located in the Reich Chancellery in Berlin, thus being in constant and close communication with Hitler himself. Mr. Lammers shall be referred to later, as his testimony concerning the alleged extermination of the Jews may end up being a thorn in the side of exterminationist theories.

The most significant point to be established in this regard is the fact that Hitler acted within the perameters of the law, in a situation not too different from the sterilization and medical experimentation programs in place in the United States at the same time.

[Hannover]

Scott:

I called these alleged bottles "CO gas welding tanks" in jest. They're about as silly a story as is possible from a vertitable encyclopedia of absurdities called the 'holocau$t'.

- H.

[elbod]

A résumé:

Hannover wrote:

I suggest that Erdmann's statements about coercion are valid since there is no corroborative evidence for euthanasia gassings,

you have to say it opposite!!! i suggest erdmanns statement about threats are invalid since there is no coroborabitive evidence for threats. on the other hand,there is corresponding evidence for eutanasie gassing, see above....

Quote:
and by your own words, all were acquitted.


because they were legaly not guilty, but not because there was no gassing!!!

(Germania Posted: Sun May 04, 2003 9:06 am )

A: Perhaps I had better explain this in some detail. Bouhler's basic requirement was that the killing should not only be painless, but also imperceptible. For this reason, the photographing of the patients, which was only done for scientific reasons, took place before they entered the chambers, and the patients were completely diverted thereby. Then they were led into the gas chamber which they were told was a shower room. They were in groups of perhaps 20 or 30. They were gassed by the doctor in charge.

Testimony of Brack, regarding gassing of insane people in Germany.
Quoted in "Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals" - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. I, p. 876-886.

(Germania Posted: Sun May 04, 2003 9:13 am )

It seems that we don’t know the full testimony of the nurse P. Kneissler who said

»In the beginning the euthanasia was done by gassing«.

How do we know that in the sixties when she said this, that she was not influenced by the stories of the alleged homicidal gassings in Auschwitz? Or that her defence lawyer influenced her to say something like that?

(Sailor Posted: Sun May 04, 2003 9:34 pm)

From another thread

Quote:
what do you mean "to show"????? ask yourselve, if it were true, do we expect bottles to show? in other words is it likely that the ss forgot the bottles in the eutanasie institutes??? no...and honestly, it is absurd! infact,if we had bottles i would strongly doubt in their authenticy since it is just absurd that the ss left the bottles in the eutanasie institutes for months or even years!!!

When the places known for euthanasia, like “Sonnenschein” or others, were liberated, the Americans or whoever did the liberating may have found bottles with CO, if that was used for euthanasia. Since that stuff plays now such an important part in the Holocaust story, there must have been quite a few of these bottles around, and normally one does not return these steel bottles when they are still half full. So to me it does not seem so absurd that some of these CO bottles were found at that time.

Quote:
assuming for the sake of argument it happened, is it likely that the ss forgot the bottles in the eutanasie institutes??? yes or no??? do you think the ss was stupid, yes or no???

If someone within the SS committed a criminal offence, say he murdered a person with CO, then it stands to reason that he probably tried to do away with the murder weapon.
But euthanasia of incurable mentally or physically disabled people was in Germany legal, at least for some time. If the euthanasia should have been performed with CO, why should anyone of the SS try to hide these bottles?

(Sailor Posted: Tue May 06, 2003 5:35 pm )

Quote:

When the places known for euthanasia, like “Sonnenschein” or others, were liberated, the Americans or whoever did the liberating may have found bottles with CO, if that was used for euthanasia.

why??? the gassing was stoped loooooong before "liberation" and there was plenty of time to get rid of the bottles.

Quote:
If the euthanasia should have been performed with CO, why should anyone of the SS try to hide these bottles?

because it was illegal (though ordered by hitler who trumped any law), because it was secret, because it was killing , because it was a shame, because there was no reason to present any evidence for history.

(Germania Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 1:18 am )

……………..

The “evidence for history” presented by the euthanasia of the Third Reich seems to be that it corroborates the gas chambers of Auschwitz, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka etc. If the Germans were able to do such things to individually “inferior” fellow Aryans, why wouldn’t they do it to the collectively “inferior” Jews(according to their race ideology)?

It has been called a “preview of the impending Holocaust”.

So the euthanasia “proves” the Holocaust; at least indirectly. It also includes a “Hitler order” to stop it, once the Germans couldn’t stomach it, although ordered by Hitler “who trumped any law” (The Knauer case).

Although the adult euthanasia project was conducted in secret, it was impossible to conceal such things from the German public, and by 1941, news of the mercy killings had been leaked. Growing public pressure on the Nazi government forced the abandonment of the program in that year.

http://www.white-history.com/hwr64ii.htm

So why shouldn’t Hitler have ordered a Final Solution of the Jewish Question, on the same grounds? (“Inferiority” on the race level).

The difference was that he had to order the implementation abroad (to avoid an eventual "public pressure"?).

The personell recruited for the Reinhard camps (Reichsamtsleiter Viktor Brack, Kriminalkommisar Christian Wirth, Stangl and others) were drawn from the euthanasia project – that’s another corroborating instance.

The technology of gas vans were used first on victims of euthanasia, it seems:

The "Kaisers-Kaffe"-van operated through the same principle as the gas-chambers of the "Euthanasie"- installations. CO was guided into a trailer through hoses from a cylinder which was fixed to the tractor. This was, hence, a gas-chamber on wheels [19]. Witnesses report that since september 1939 the Sonderkommando Lange [Special command/task force] killed mentally insane people in such vans in pommeranian, eastern-prussian and polish hospitals [20].
………………
…Himmler had visited a hospital/sanatorium for mentally insane people and afterwards ordered the Leader of Einsatzgruppe B, Nebe, to search/investigate means, fit to shorten the suffering of the people as far as possible [31], as he had concluded from the experience with the execution by shooting "that shooting wasn't yet the most human way" [32].
He [i.e. Nebe] should send "a report" about those investigations. Himmler addressed Nebe, as the KTI, subordinated to the 'Amt V', had excelled in the investigation/development of killing procedures during the "Euthanasia" program, so that their experiences could be employed now. Nebe was simultaneously head of that 'Amt V' [department] in the RSHA. Relying on this position, in beginning September he ordered Widmann to come to Minsk with explosives and two metal-hoses/tubes [33].
Widmann had had discussed this order with his immediate boss/superior Heess. This elucidates that apart of the stress for the execution squads/commands, a further reason was given for the following experiments:
"It was discussed with Heess also about the usage of [poisonous] gas in the killing of mentally insane persons, especially about the impossibility to transport the CO-cylinders in Russia." [34]
The CO-cylinders would have been necessary, if one was intending to use "Kaisers-Kaffe"-vans or gas-chambers as they were used in the "Euthanasia" program.
………
In the development of the gas-vans, the experience gathered during the "Euthanasia", which was stopped officially in 1941 was purposively applied/used in technical matters ("Kaisers Kaffee"-vans) as well as with the staff employed (KTI, Becker, Lange). Unlike the case of "Kaisers Kaffee"- vans, a participation of Führer's chancellery cannot be stated/found here. This staff worked during that time on the development of another method which was used in the destruction centers since 1942.
"Technical developments" were a precondition for the perpetration of the premeditated/intended crimes. The step- wise perfectioning of the killing-methods were the development of the gas-van was only one step in the sequel of national-socialist killing methods, result in the killing of ever more people, mainly Jews.

__
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/chelmno/sonderdruck.html

There is obviously a euthanasia/gas van connection.

(“Judicial proceedings in the case of the acts of cruelty committed by the German facist invaders and their accomplices in the territory of the town of Krasnodar and the Krasnodar area during the period of their temporary occupation (14 - 17 July 1943)”).

The famous trials conducted at Nuremberg between Oct0ber 20, 1945 and October 1, 1946 were not the first or the last trials of Nazi war criminals. The first trials were held in the Soviet Union in the city of Krasnodar on the northeastern edge of the Black Sea from July 14 to July 17, 1943. Thirteen Soviet citizens were tried for over 7,000 acts of murder committed by an auxiliary unit of Einsatzgruppen D under the command of Kurt Christmann. Using gas vans, the unit exterminated all the patients in the municipal hospital, a convalescent home and a children's hospital. Eight of the accused were hanged and three were sentenced to 20 years imprisonment.

http://www.mtsu.edu/~baustin/trials.html

http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/warcrimes-trials-krasnodar.htm
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Kharkov2.html

It seems that once this connection is established, there starts a sort of “contamination” of witness testimony. Suddenly there are euthanasia everywhere, in occupied Poland and Russia, and gas vans are popping up all over the place.

And vice versa.

Brack’s testimony combines the brutal proceedings described by Gerstein and others in Belzec and Treblinka (stuffing of people into a small room on pretext of showering them) with the “scientific” opportunities presented used to no purpose, à la Mengele in Auschwitz (since the photos etc would present “evidence to history”).

A: Perhaps I had better explain this in some detail. Bouhler's basic requirement was that the killing should not only be painless, but also imperceptible. For this reason, the photographing of the patients, which was only done for scientific reasons, took place before they entered the chambers, and the patients were completely diverted thereby. Then they were led into the gas chamber which they were told was a shower room. They were in groups of perhaps 20 or 30. They were gassed by the doctor in charge.

This was before the introduction of modern psychopharmaca.

If the persons to be killed were physically fit to move themselves, one would presume that they were not so easily “diverted” (by a “shot” of a photographer). Collective showerings are rather difficult to implement even to rational people, with “normal” paranoias. Yet we are to believe that these people were easily “led” naked to a shower room, after being “diverted” by a photographer.

“Imperceptible” killings, indeed.

Q. And these people thought that they were going in to take a shower bath?
A. If any of them had any power of reasoning, they had no doubt thought that.
Q. Well now, were they taken into the shower rooms with their clothes on or were they nude?
A. No. They were nude.
Q. In every case?
A. Whenever I saw them, yes.

http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/resource/document/DocEuth.htm


One is reminded of the meek people being lead to slaughter in the Reinhard camps, or to the Einsatzgruppen mass graves, according to testimonies from survivors and perpetrators:

Hannover wrote:

The Bruns document:
- And ofcourse they just stood around and merrily waited to be shot,
I quote:
"here they stood in a queue 1 1/2 km long which approached step by step - a queueing up for death. As they drew nearer they saw what was going on."

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?p=1515#1515

I think Sailor is right:

How do we know that in the sixties when she said this, that she was not influenced by the stories of the alleged homicidal gassings in Auschwitz? Or that her defence lawyer influenced her to say something like that?

(Sailor Posted: Sun May 04, 2003 9:34 pm)

This influence probably worked for Brack, too.

[Sailor]

It is amazing to observe how exterminationists, Holocaust believers and anti-revisionists explain the lack of hard evidence (and get away with it!):

- SS-man Blobel mastered the art of making huge mass graves disappear completely, never to be found again by any human being. Forever.

- The gas chambers were destroyed, dynamited, blasted to smithereens.

- All documents which might implicate the evil-doers were destroyed. (Which includes Hitler’s order for the genocide of 6 million people.)

- The “pure extermination camps” (Reinhard camps) destroyed completely and made disappear, including all documents, including the mass graves.

- And now according to Mr. Germania the CO gas bottles disappeared too.

I read through the NMT protocol U.S. vs Brandt (Medical Case) again. I find that stuff seriously lacking. I would have expected a detailed description of the alleged euthanasia gas chambers.

And how did Viktor Brack, who was not a medical doctor but some kind of an administrator in Hitler’s chancellery, a paper shuffler, know whether a person suffers from pain and when a person is dead? Was the alleged euthanasia gas chamber provided with a window so everybody could observe from the room next to it?

“Show me or draw me a Nazi gas chamber…”

CO is a very poisonous gas. How did the people who applied it protect themselves?
This from a car racing site:

Running bottled carbon monoxide through filters in the laboratories at the new R&D complex, "We found that nothing will filter it, because it's not a particle," Nelson said. "It goes through just like air.

[Germania]

- And now according to Mr. Germania the CO gas bottles disappeared too.

so you are one of those who think germans are stupid like a bratwurst and would likely forget the bottles in the institutes when they were closed...pah!

[Hannover]

On the contrary, German's are some of the most intelligent people on the planet. In fact, they're so intelligent that the idea they would use CO in welding tanks to kill people is ludicrous....not to mention the absurdity of diesel 'gas vans' & pesticide 'gas chambers'.

- H.

[Sailor]

so you are one of those who think germans are stupid like a bratwurst and would likely forget the bottles in the institutes when they were closed...pah!

Well, the obvious solution is that these CO bottles were never in these institutes to begin with.

And speaking of CO bottles:

The Soviets alleged that they discovered five CO steel bottles in Majdanek when they liberated that place.

I always wondered what happened to those. They seem to have disappeared too.

By the way, I like German bratwurst.