German Labour camps - shocking truth decrypts / Jew transits

[astro3]

Sorry if I haven’t replied to all of Bob’s comments. He obviously knows a lot more about this topic than I do, and for most of the debate on this thread he’s been right in correcting errors of mine. I’m grateful for this. .

Could he clarify his quoting from the 3rd Edition of Jürgen Graf, Carlo Mattogno, 'Concentration Camp Majdanek: A Historical &Technical Study', 2012, pp. 268ff., pp. 269ff. As I said, there is not a page 268 in the online version of the book http://vho.org/GB/Books/ccm/

There is a load of stuff on this Hoftle telegram and the Korherr Report: ‘Sobibor: Holocaust propaganda and Reality’ by Kues, Graf and Mattogno from page 311 onwards, but it seems not to be online.

I’ve written to Irving asking him if he’ll correct my careless error of putting L127621 instead of L12761.

I have trouble believing the eight hundred thousand visitors in 6 months given how small the place was (as recalled by the only real witness as far as I can see http://www.vho.org/tr/2004/1/Faurisson78-82.html Marian Olszuk, a farmer who lived nearby) – they all have to be fed, housed, have somewhere to shit, get deloused, how could there have been enough to cope with that many? There is only a green field there now. I need a bit more evidence than a little scrap of paper.

[Bob]

Could he clarify his quoting from the 3rd Edition of Jürgen Graf, Carlo Mattogno, 'Concentration Camp Majdanek: A Historical &Technical Study', 2012, pp. 268ff., pp. 269ff. As I said, there is not a page 268 in the online version of the book http://vho.org/GB/Books/ccm/

Yes, pages refer to pdf version, html version is out of date, download available at holocausthandbooks.com

There is a load of stuff on this Hoftle telegram and the Korherr Report: ‘Sobibor: Holocaust propaganda and Reality’ by Kues, Graf and Mattogno from page 311 onwards, but it seems not to be online.

Yep, but there isn´t anything new related to your problems with the document i think, anyway, download available at holocausthandbooks.com

I’ve written to Irving asking him if he’ll correct my careless error of putting L127621 instead of L12761.

Let him know about "Ss515 - Wrong - S515 is correct and L24735 - Wrong - L24733 is correct." too.

I have trouble believing the eight hundred thousand visitors in 6 months given how small the place was (as recalled by the only real witness as far as I can see http://www.vho.org/tr/2004/1/Faurisson78-82.html Marian Olszuk, a farmer who lived nearby) – they all have to be fed, housed, have somewhere to shit, get deloused, how could there have been enough to cope with that many? There is only a green field there now. I need a bit more evidence than a little scrap of paper.

They needed only food to "survive" before reaching their final destination, they got food and other things before leaving their starting locations, here is point 21 under the guidelines of a circular:[1]

“The following must be taken along by each person:
a) 1 pair of sturdy work boots, 2 pairs of socks, 2 shirts, 2 pairs of underpants,
1 work suit, 2 wool blankets, 2 sets of bedding (pillow cases and
sheets), 1 bowl, 1 drinking cup, 1 spoon and 1 sweater, and also the toilet
articles necessary.
b) Each Jew has to take a food supply with him for a 3-day march. Only 1 piece of baggage is allowed to be taken along (1 suitcase or backpack).”

Under points 6 and 7 are the instructions:

“A food supply for a total of 14 days (bread, flour, barley, beans etc. in bags) is to be added to the transport in a special freight car. […]
One Jew, who is responsible for keeping order during the trip and for the cleaning of the car at the end of the trip, is to be in charge of each car. This Jew is to also bring cleaning materials with him.”

Or:[2]

“I am hereby announcing that all persons who will be resettled according to the instruction of the authorities will voluntarily report for the journey on the 29th, 30th, and 31st of July of this year, will receive 3 kg of bread and 1 kg of jam. Place of assembly for distribution of the products – Stawikiplatz at the Wildstraße corner.”

Or as Carlo Mattogno adds “The German authorities were providing 180,000 kg of bread and 36,000 kg of jam for the volunteers.”[3]

I think that all of these things are enough for their journey. Of course, in the case of extermination, one has to wonder about what they did with the tons of food hauled by the people into the camp in their luggage or in the freight car, food kindly provided to their victims before they were allegedly gassed, this does not hold much water. They wasted it? They moved it back and forth with each transport? Not plausible at all, food was valuable commodity of course and trains returned empty as reported even by exterminationists, no transports of food returning from the camp as far as I know.

So they were sent to the camp already equipped with lot of things.

Latrines, housing, delousing facilities, I think that no problem with the reported area of some 14 hectares (in fact 13,45 rounded up by me for easier calculations), some 140 000 square meters (in fact 134,500 rounded up by me for easier calculations)[4]. In Auschwitz, one accommodation barrack with dimensions of approx. 40m x 10m can accommodate some 550 people or 744 people as newly indicated by Bischoff.[5] So only some 6-7 of these barracks (from wood and not brick in Treblinka I guess) can accommodate 5,000 transport in area of only 2,400 to 2,800 square meters. Latrines, and etc. no problem at all.

Maybe this helped you to clarify this issue. I do not see anything impossible, this was possible in Auschwitz on large scale, why not in Treblinka on smaller scale. If I missed something or if something does not make sense or if something is wrong, let me know.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notes

[1]A circular by SS-Hauptsturmführer Dannecker, July 26, 1942, RF-1221.; Carlo Mattogno, Jürgen Graf, Treblinka: Extermination Camp or Transit Camp?, The Barnes Review, 2010, p. 248.
[2]The director of the Jewish Ordnungsdienst (constabulary) on July 29, 1942 in Faschismus – Getto – Massenmord. Dokumentation über Ausrottung und Widerstand der Juden in Polen während des zweiten Weltkriegs, Röderberg Verlag, Frankfurt/Main 1960, p. 309.; Carlo Mattogno, Jürgen Graf, op. cit. (note 1), p. 276.
[3]“Likwidacja Zydowskiej Warszawy,” in: Biuletyn Zydowskiego Instytutu Historycznego, Warsaw, January-June 1951, no. 1, p. 80.; Idem.
[4]Plan drawn by the sworn surveyor K.Trautsolt, November, 1945.;Carlo Mattogno, Jürgen Graf, op. cit. (note 1), p. 91. See Document 7 in the Appendix. A similar, simplified plan was reproduced by A. Neumaier, “The Treblinka Holocaust”, in: G. Rudolf (ed.), op. cit. (note 81), p. 483; cf. Document 8. As is obvious from the plan, it originates from the archive of the Main Commission for the Investigation of Hitler Crimes in Poland (Glównej Komisji Badania Zbrodni Hitlerowskich w Polsce).
[5]Plan published in Debórah Dwork, Robert Jan van Pelt, Auschwitz 1270 to the present, W.W. Norton & Company Inc. 1996, table 13, p. 337 (page not indicated in the book).; Feel free to request a scan.

[astro3]

Statement by Head of British Intelligence about gas-chamber stories
Public Record Office Document, FO 371/34551

27 August, 1943
In my opinion it is incorrect to describe Polish information regarding German atrocities as “trustworthy.’ The Poles, and to a far greater extent the Jews, tend to exaggerate German atrocities in order to stoke us up. They seem to have succeeded.

Mr Allen and myself have both followed German atrocities quite closely. I do not believe that there is any evidence which would be accepted in a Law Court that Polish children have been killed on the spot by Germans when their parents were being deported to work in Germany, nor that Polish children have been sold to German settlers. As regards putting Poles to death in gas chambers, I do not believe that there is any evidence that this has been done, There have been many stories to this effect, and we have played them up, in P.W.E. [Psy Warfare Executive] rumours without believing that they had any foundation. At any rate there is far less evidence than exists for the mass murder of Polish officers by the Russians at Katyn. On the other hand we do know that the Germans are out to destroy Jews of any age unless they are fit for manual labour.

I think that we weaken our case against the Germans by publicly giving credence to atrocity stories for which we have no evidence. These mass executions in gas chambers remind me of the story of employment of human corpses during the last war for the manufacture of fat, which was a grotesque lie and led to the true stories of German enormities being brushed aside as being mere propaganda.

I am very sad to see that we must needs ape the Russians and talk about “Hitlerite” instead of “German.”

(signed) V Cavendish-Bentick

As a result of this statement, a telegram was sent off to Washington the same day, copied to Moscow, requesting that no allusion be made to 'gas chambers' re German atrocities in Poland.

[borjastick]

The fact that records of outbound or onward train journeys have 'gone missing' is no surprise, after all six million have 'gone missing' too. To me it is self explanatory that the trains from Treblinka would be empty, they would be returning to Germany. To expect the same trains that took the jews to Treblinka to then carry them forward to God knows where in the depths of Eastern europe is unrealistic. I am no railway expert but it is possible that the railway guage was different in Russia anyway.

We can argue and fiddle about with minor details concerning the running rate of deportations, and the decimal point which I think was in the right place, making the figure 71,355, but we cannot argue with the pure and simple fact that no scientific proof of 700,000+++ jewish deaths and remains exists. Why is that?

[Kingfisher]

Borjastick

The Russian railway gauge (5 ft) was different from the German standard gauge (4 ft 8.5 ins). According to Suvorov, when the Soviets invaded Poland in 1939 they immediately began converting the existing track to Russian gauge. Presumably some or all of the track in this area, which had been Russian until 1920, had been converted by the Poles to standard gauge. According to my earlier reading (sorry, no source), the Germans began converting the gauge back again after June 1941. This would make sense as the Russians would not have left working locomotives and rolling stock behind when they retreated.

However, according to Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broad_gauge#Russian_gauge:

The difference is clearly lower than the tolerance margin, so through running is feasible. Care must however be taken when servicing international trains because the wear profile of the wheels differs from that of trains that run on domestic tracks only.

For current procedure: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broad_gauge#Russian_gauge

Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and Romania (1,435 mm) vs. Former Soviet Union countries: Russia, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova (1,520 mm). Night trains are common, and they are often bogie-exchanged.

So it would seem that the idea that they had to detrain and board new trains because of the change in gauge, though attractive, is not necessarily valid. It seems unclear what the gauges would have been, but in time of war I suspect they would just run through if necessary. If gauge change was required it would have been a priority for moving troops and military supplies.

Nevertheless, a change of train might make sense just to avoid taking locomotives and rolling stock too far from their home depots.

What I have written is largely speculative. Any hard info would be welcome.

[chim-pa]

So it would seem that the idea that they had to detrain and board new trains because of the change in gauge, though attractive, is not necessarily valid. It seems unclear what the gauges would have been, but in time of war I suspect they would just run through if necessary. If gauge change was required it would have been a priority for moving troops and military supplies.

Nevertheless, a change of train might make sense just to avoid taking locomotives and rolling stock too far from their home depots.

Trains running from Wien to Minsk seem to have always runned via Wolkowitz / Wolkowysk using passenger trains, and there people were disembarked and trains were changed to freight trains. Wolkowitz is about 250 km west of Minsk.

[borjastick]

Borjastick

The Russian railway gauge (5 ft) was different from the German standard gauge (4 ft 8.5 ins). According to Suvorov, when the Soviets invaded Poland in 1939 they immediately began converting the existing track to Russian gauge. Presumably some or all of the track in this area, which had been Russian until 1920, had been converted by the Poles to standard gauge. According to my earlier reading (sorry, no source), the Germans began converting the gauge back again after June 1941. This would make sense as the Russians would not have left working locomotives and rolling stock behind when they retreated.

However, according to Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broad_gauge#Russian_gauge:

The difference is clearly lower than the tolerance margin, so through running is feasible. Care must however be taken when servicing international trains because the wear profile of the wheels differs from that of trains that run on domestic tracks only.

For current procedure: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broad_gauge#Russian_gauge

Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and Romania (1,435 mm) vs. Former Soviet Union countries: Russia, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova (1,520 mm). Night trains are common, and they are often bogie-exchanged.

So it would seem that the idea that they had to detrain and board new trains because of the change in gauge, though attractive, is not necessarily valid. It seems unclear what the gauges would have been, but in time of war I suspect they would just run through if necessary. If gauge change was required it would have been a priority for moving troops and military supplies.

Nevertheless, a change of train might make sense just to avoid taking locomotives and rolling stock too far from their home depots.

What I have written is largely speculative. Any hard info would be welcome.

My argument is based on the reality of a finite supply of rolling stock etc. Thus at some point, and Treblinka seems to be that point, engines and cars would have to make the return journey or there would be no more transport. As we all seem to believe that Treblinka was a transit camps it needed to serve a specific purpose.
Detraining and distribution of deportees from that point would make sense, otherwise why build the camp there anyway? There had to be a reason of a practical nature to use Treblinka as a transit point. Rolling stock, the journey times, convenience all point to that.

[borjastick]

On the day of the much awaited Caroline Sturdy Colls tv documentary about Treblinka it seems to me that either way 71355 or 713555 in two weeks is a ridiculous figure and it certainly proves nothing about mass murder. If it were the higher of the two figures (713000+/-) how could they possibly have murdered that amount of people in two weeks?

If it's the lower figure it proves their figures of 800k total are unreasonable too.

I notice on youtube on the Caroline Sturdy Colls preview for the film has plenty of abusive comments from a certain Alan Heath. He seems to only have abuse in his armour, regularly calling all revisionists liars, deniers and racists. Though less obvious is any proof of the Treblinka claims. He says historians are revisionists but then doesn't accept any revision on the holocaust...

I am fascinated to see what CSC's programme shows tonight. My guess is not a lot except assumption and trotting out of the usual 'facts' about the place. The only sad facts they don't want to accept are that Treblinka was a transit camp, that they have no evidence for the 800k death claims and that when those passing through the camp had been and gone east, the camp was no longer needed and closed down.

[EtienneSC]

I'm not sure what video Borjastick means. She says here (posted 27 Nov 2013) that she or her team was allowed to dig:

Previously we were told they only allowed to use non-invasive techniques, but this seems to refer to a later trip. She also refers to using stories from Warsaw ghetto survivors to visualize what she was finding. There is also an older "Jewish News" report that refers to the transit camp hypothesis (disparagingly of course, but it's still recognition).

I do wonder about the AR figures from the Hoefle telegram and Korherr report: it seems apparent on reflection that these must derive either from each other or from a single common source. One source is hardly ideal evidence for such a large scale movement of people. Presumably matters have been gone into in more detail elsewhere though.

[Hannover]

The Colls business probably does not belong in this thread. Here are perhaps better ones:
Caroline Sturdy Colls Treblinka TV documentary
Caroline Sturdy Colls publishes

Anyway, she claims in the video that she was allowed to excavate in 'limited areas'. Of course the claimed really big mass graves are covered in a way that excavation could not be done without removing the material which has been placed there to PREVENT excavations. Why doesn't she get permission to dig into those? We certainly know why.

And note we see absolutely nothing from these claimed 'limited' excavations, nada. Why not? In fact, she's been working there for years and we haven't seen a single, verifiable excavated mass grave of Jews, not one. Colls claims to have excavated, but then dodges the results.

The entire matter is a fraud. The woman is a pretender who is desperately trying to buttress the easily demolished lies. It's no wonder that 'holocaust' Revisionism is growing.

More on the embarrassing Colls:
six gun @ Dr. Sturdy-Colls discoveries at Treblinka

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the 'holocaust' storyline is the message. The tide is turning.

- Hannover

[TheBlackRabbitofInlé]

On the day of the much awaited Caroline Sturdy Colls tv documentary about Treblinka it seems to me that either way 71355 or 713555 in two weeks is a ridiculous figure and it certainly proves nothing about mass murder. If it were the higher of the two figures (713000+/-) how could they possibly have murdered that amount of people in two weeks?

10,335 is the figure of Jews sent to Treblinka in the two weeks prior to 31.12.42 on the Höfle telegram, whilst the 71355(5) figure is the total of Jews sent there during 1942.

13/15. OLQ de OMQ 1005 83 234 250
State secret! To the commander of the Security Police,
for the attention of SS Obersturmbannführer HEIM, KRAKAU.
Re: 14-day report Operation REINHARD. Reference: radiogram from there.
Recorded arrivals until 31 December 42, L 12761, B 0, S 515,T 10335 totaling
23611. Situation [ ... ] 31 December 42, L 24733, B 434508, S 101370,
T 71355, totaling 1274166.
SS and police leader of Lublin, HOEFLE, Sturmbannführer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6fle_Telegram

[Moderator]

FYI, see more critiques on the Colls / Treblinka TV show here:
Caroline Sturdy Colls Treblinka TV documentary
M1