New research uncovers strong evidence that Jews were murdered BEFORE they reached Treblinka

[Zolton]

Zolton:

Is it possible that the lengthy stops included time taken to let the Jews (and the train crews) out of the trains to go to the toilet, get some water and some food, give sick Jews some care or drop off Jews who were too sick to continue, in the hopes that taking a break at a camp would help them get better so they could continue on at a later date?

Is it possible that for each Jew that was removed from the train, another Jew from a camp took his place and continued their journey east?

Nazgul:

Possible means "able to be done; able to happen or exist." Probable means "likely to happen or be true but not certain."

Possible also means:

1
a: being within the limits of ability, capacity, or realization

b: being what may be conceived, be done, or occur according to nature, custom, or manners

2
a: being something that may or may not occur

b: being something that may or may not be true or actual

3: having an indicated potential

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/possible

Nazgul,

Is it possible that the lengthy stops included time taken to let the Jews (and the train crews) out of the trains to go to the toilet, get some water and some food, give sick Jews some care or drop off Jews who were too sick to continue, in the hopes that taking a break at a camp would help them get better so they could continue on at a later date?

Is it probable that the lengthy stops included time taken to let the Jews (and the train crews) out of the trains to go to the toilet, get some water and some food, give sick Jews some care or drop off Jews who were too sick to continue, in the hopes that taking a break at a camp would help them get better so they could continue on at a later date?

Is it possible that for each Jew that was removed from the train, another Jew from a camp took his place and continued their journey east?

Is it probable that for each Jew that was removed from the train, another Jew from a camp took his place and continued their journey east?

[Nazgul]

Is it possible that the lengthy stops included time taken to let the Jews (and the train crews) out of the trains to go to the toilet, get some water and some food, give sick Jews some care or drop off Jews who were too sick to continue, in the hopes that taking a break at a camp would help them get better so they could continue on at a later date?

While it is possible, all of the witness accounts I have read speak of taking their own food, water. A bucket in the wagon was used for ablutions. In some instances water is given during transit. I have never read any account you have suggested above, which is not to say it did not happen.

Is it possible that for each Jew that was removed from the train, another Jew from a camp took his place and continued their journey east?

Once again it is possible. On some of the Treblinka schedules, there were not only cattle wagons but class 3 passenger cars. Whether these were used for inmates or staff is not known. There are reports of inmates arriving at Sobibor in a regular carriage. Witness reports speak of people often crowded into cattle cars, locked in until they arrive at their specific destination. Their wagons are removed from the train at those locations and then opened, often after the train has moved on. Whether new wagons were shunted onto the train is unknown.

Jews left Treblinka II. Here are some names.

• Linda Penn...February 43..Grodno-Treblinka-Majdanek
• Zelda Gordon...February 43..Grodno-Treblinka-Majdanek
• Alexander Goldsmith..43 Warsaw-Treblinka-Majdanek
• Sol Liber...late April 43...Warsaw-Treblinka-Lublin with 500 other men
• Eddie Bachner...May 43..Warsaw-Treblinka-Majdanek
• Riva Kramer...Feb 43..Grodno-Treblinka-Majdanek
• David Silver...April/May 43..Minsk-Treblinka-Budzyn with 100 men
• Thaddeus Stabholz...April/May 43..Warsaw-Treblinka-Majdanek with 300 men
• Henry Franket...May 43..Warsaw-Treblinka-Majdanek with 300 men
• Moshe Zylberberg...April 43..Warsaw-Treblinka-Majdanek with 300 men
• Sam Kulawy...42-43..Biala Podlaska-Treblinka-Auschwitz with thousands.
• Ben L..Treblinka a day then left by train to another camp.

While it is cited (Donat) that there were only 68 TII survivors, the above is evidence that thousands survived this place.

Chad Gibbs, PhD Candidate, History, University of Wisconsin-Madison has taken an interest in Treblinka, including the work of Donat,s 1979 volume The Death Camp Treblinka. Donat listed 68 Treblinka survivors. The research by Gibbs has produced the following information:

• 428 testimonies regarding Treblinka II
• 238 Treblinka survivor testimonies link

I have listed this before with the links.

In fact a worker nearby the camp, Marian Olszuk often spoke with the guards and inmates. He could see inside the camp and saw absolutely nothing untoward. One day he saw old clothing being burned. link

Olszuk said:

Those Jews worked at various tasks in the woods, supervised by Ukrainian guards who, for their part, often deserted.

It is interesting to note that Francesco Zabecki the station master of Treblinka had plenty of opportunities to take photos of cremation pyre smoke, but never did so. He took a single image of the camp burning after the revolt.

[Zolton]

Zolton:

Is it possible that the lengthy stops included time taken to let the Jews (and the train crews) out of the trains to go to the toilet, get some water and some food, give sick Jews some care or drop off Jews who were too sick to continue, in the hopes that taking a break at a camp would help them get better so they could continue on at a later date?

Nazgul:

It is possible

Right, which also means this has never been proven to not have happened.

Zolton:

Is it possible that for each Jew that was removed from the train, another Jew from a camp took his place and continued their journey east?

Nazgul:

It is possible

Right, which also means this has never been proven to not have happened.

Nazgul, Is it plausible that the lengthy stops included time taken to let the Jews (and the train crews) out of the trains to go to the toilet, get some water and some food, give sick Jews some care or drop off Jews who were too sick to continue, in the hopes that taking a break at a camp would help them get better so they could continue on at a later date?

Nazgul,Is itplausible that for each Jew that was removed from the train, another Jew from a camp took his place and continued their journey east?[/quote]

Nazgul, Is it probable that the lengthy stops included time taken to let the Jews (and the train crews) out of the trains to go to the toilet, get some water and some food, give sick Jews some care or drop off Jews who were too sick to continue, in the hopes that taking a break at a camp would help them get better so they could continue on at a later date?

Nazgul,Is itprobable that for each Jew that was removed from the train, another Jew from a camp took his place and continued their journey east?[/quote]

Nazgul, do you deny that the revisionist thesis is that the Nazis Final Solution to the Jewish problem was a forced emigration program and not an extermination pogram?

[Zolton]

Zolton:

Is it possible that Jews were not dying by the thousands, and the long stops were necessary to let the Jews off to get fresh air, go to the bathroom, get some water, cook some food, take care of the sick, etc?

:

Lamptrecht:

It's possible they stopped for breaks of this nature, but it's also possible that they did not.

Which means that it has never been proven that this did not happen.

Lamptrecht, Is it plausible that the lengthy stops included time taken to let the Jews (and the train crews) out of the trains to go to the toilet, get some water and some food, give sick Jews some care or drop off Jews who were too sick to continue, in the hopes that taking a break at a camp would help them get better so they could continue on at a later date?

Lampbrecht, has the revisionist "Holocaust by train" thesis ever been proven?

[Lamprecht]

Zolton:

It's possible they stopped for breaks of this nature, but it's also possible that they did not.

Which means that it has never been proven that this did not happen.

Correct. However, there were concerns about escape attempts. If they wanted to prevent the Jews from escaping the trains, they would not be letting them out.

Lamptrecht, Is it plausible that the lengthy stops included time taken to let the Jews (and the train crews) out of the trains to go to the toilet, get some water and some food, give sick Jews some care or drop off Jews who were too sick to continue, in the hopes that taking a break at a camp would help them get better so they could continue on at a later date?

On whether it was possible / plausible / probable:
They could have done it, but I do not think this was taking place, at least on a large scale.

Lampbrecht, has the revisionist "Holocaust by train" thesis ever been proven?

There are multiple documents/testimonies describing Jews dying on the trains en route to these so-called "pure extermination center" AR camps. That alone is not sufficient beyond a mere suggestion that this in fact took place, but you have not posted any contrary evidence - such as testimonies/reports - showing that Jews were let out during these stops to eat or have the sick cared for.

Also, given what we know, disease was common in this time period during wars, whereas effective medicine was scarce/rare/non-existent. Note that common+deadly diseases from the 1940s and before (particularly in poverty/war conditions) are often almost unheard of in Western countries in the present day, or are very effectively treated. Look into the 2018-19 Los Angeles "epidemic" of typhus among the homeless. There was no mass death. The WHO estimates millions of typhus deaths per year worldwide, but this is in poor/impoverished areas. Most of the world doesn't have this problem because cheap and widely available antibiotics are effective treatments. Without these treatments, there is a high death rate.

[borjastick]

Zolton is doing the classic Holocaust believers routine of obfuscation, derailment and delving far too deep into completely irrelevant detail.

There is no revisionists research nor agreement on this ridiculous idea and claim that thousands and thousands of jews died en route to Treblinka, perhaps fewer than the number of deaths at Treblinka. Complete nonsense. When I read that there were several thousand camps along the rail route and people were dropped off and collected from these camps once more I want to scream! There were never thousands of camps they were simply collection points that normal people would refer to as train stations... If they existed at all.

Stop avoiding the main claim that you have made and start trying to prove the points you think you know about. This isn't third grade playtime here, we are all equipped with X-Ray specs and bags of experience at this train stop mate and can sniff out half wits and fools from a mile off and in the dark!

[HeiligeSturm]

It is interesting to note that Francesco Zabecki the station master of Treblinka had plenty of opportunities to take photos of cremation pyre smoke, but never did so. He took a single image of the camp burning after the revolt.

During the revolt or uprising at Treblinka...

"[Kalman ] Taigman said he recalls the uprising vividly, and that resisting the Germans was a "dream" for the prisoners."
https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna39939248

He tells his escape story in BBC's Death Camp Treblinka Survivor Stories.
Kalman Taigman run away from the camp about 15 minutes, then turned back and was able to see how "The swastika
was burning and falling down. Everything was burning."
Just think about it. Escape from the secret camp located in the middle of thick forest
and RUN away from it about 15 minutes. Not knowing how fast Kalman was, it's difficult to tell how far he got.
But his sight apparently was something extraordinary if he could recognize how the swastika was burning and
falling down. Did he see the forest from the trees?
He said: "The feeling was...unbelievable."
Think about this story with reason and also something else is unbelievable.

Let's not forget the mine fields.
"Hundreds fled, but most were shot and killed by Nazi troops in the surrounding mine fields or captured by Polish villagers who returned them to Treblinka."
https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna39939248

[bombsaway]

Here's a document about Jewish "resettlers" being sent to Belzec.

https://www.ns-archiv.de/verfolgung/pol ... edlung.php

The delays at the train stations were caused because the "resettlers" kept trying to break out of the cars and repairs had to be made.

Other delays may have been caused by the train loading new "resttlers", guards having to hunt down escaped "resettlers", or having to execute old and sick "resettlers" unable to make the journey. Nothing about dropping "resettlers" off at labor camps along the way.

[Nazgul]

Nazgul, do you deny that the revisionist thesis is that the Nazis Final Solution to the Jewish problem was a forced emigration program and not an extermination pogram?

I have no idea if there is a "revisionist thesis". That is off topic for this thread and will not be commented on.



Cited from Mattogno & Grafs' "Treblinka" Treblinka-Extermination Camp or Transit Camp?

On October 5, 1942, the Polish underground newspaper Informacja bieżąca
(Current Information) circulated the following report
“Treblinka. The death camp is once more in operation. Transports arrive
from the entire country (most recently Radom, Siedlce, Międzyrzec). At
present 10 trains, rather than 20, are allowed to approach at a time, for it
takes a long time until the bodies of those who died on the way (20-30%)
have been unloaded.

Interestingly Radom, Siedlce, Międzyrzec are the sites of major labour camps for Jews. Radom (3 Zwl), Siedlce(6 Zwl), Międzyrzec (2 Zwl). While Radom and Siedlce are mentioned in the Fahrplananordnung 587 and are the sites of Zwangarbeitslager (Zwl) those two locations are also the sites of major train junctions. Międzyrzec is not mentioned in any of the known Fahrplananordnung documents and has a railway track passing just south of the city. Not a junction. Deutschland. ein mentions that the camp for men opened August 1942, the work being " brush production, a sawmill and on Count Potocki's estate". This camp was last mentioned in July 1943 with a women's camp (sawmill) opened the same year.

The dead arriving at Treblinka continues.

Among the reports delivered to London on March 31, 1943, was one entitled
“Charakterystyka metód Treblinki” (Characteristic of the Methods of Treblinka),
in which three further murder methods were listed: shooting, trains
with unslaked lime, and water vapor:
the transports
were loaded into cars, which were sprinkled with a layer of lime and chlorine,
so that after the arrival in Treblinka, only corpses of a violet-blue
color were tossed out of the cars. All had suffocated under torment in the
cars. For these transports (for example from Międzyrzec Podl., Kielce)
Treblinka was but the place of burial.

These reports prompted me to suggest if true they would account for mass graves. A poster (Werd or Turnagain) suggested that there is no need as there would be cemeteries for Jews in the area. Sure enough I soon discovered these places of burial for Jews. These can be seen in the image below.

Jewish cemeteries in Treblinka area

Eugen Kogon

“Sometimes there were shipments that held only corpses. I believe these
people must have been gassed in the cars, for I never noticed any wounds.”

It is noted that these slaked lime stories in cattle cars is very similar to the ones described at Belzec.

[Zolton]

Zolton:

Nazgul, do you deny that the revisionist thesis is that the Nazis Final Solution to the Jewish problem was a forced emigration program and not an extermination pogram?

Nazgul:

I have no idea if there is a "revisionist thesis". That is off topic for this thread and will not be commented on.

You have no idea if there is a revisionist thesis to counter the extermination claims?

the·sis
[ˈTHēsis]
NOUN
a statement or theory that is put forward as a premise to be maintained or proved

Nazgul, revisionists obviously do not accept the extermination claims. On what grounds do revisionists counter the extermination claims? Do they just say uh-uh, or do they offer some kind of counter argument?

Nazgul, what do revisionists claim The Final Solution to the Jewish problem actually was?

[HeiligeSturm]

Hilberg says about Die Fahrplananordnung 587 in Shoah: "low class of secrecy"
and continues: "cannot see the word Geheim - secret. It's astonishing to me."

What is also astonishing here is that Claude Lanzmann is allowed to smoke a cigarette near this supposedly original document.
Go and try to do that yourself in the presence of any original document.

Hilberg mainly speculates the meaning and content of Fahrplananordnung and suggests that if it would say: "Geheim!" "Secret",
it would raise more curiosity among those who handle it. After all, Treblinka was a secret camp.

Eugen Kogon

“Sometimes there were shipments that held only corpses. I believe these
people must have been gassed in the cars, for I never noticed any wounds.”

It is noted that these slaked lime stories in cattle cars is very similar to the ones described at Belzec.

Eugen Kogon used second-hand hearsay which circulated three years before he was liberated from Buchenwald.
(like in The Evening Post, November 25, 1942. Full quote posted earlier.)
Interestingly, Paul Rassinier was also a prisoner in Buchenwald but he didn't write about this incident later.

In a trial against Ilse Koch, Eugen Kogon also "believed" persons were killed for their skins [in Buchenwald].
The West Australian Tue 9 Jan 1951

[Zolton]

Zolton:

Lamptrecht, Is it plausible that the lengthy stops included time taken to let the Jews (and the train crews) out of the trains to go to the toilet, get some water and some food, give sick Jews some care or drop off Jews who were too sick to continue, in the hopes that taking a break at a camp would help them get better so they could continue on at a later date?

Lamptrecht:

It's possible

Zolton:

Which means that it has never been proven that this did not happen.

Lamptrecht:

Correct...On whether it was possible / plausible / probable: They could have done it

Lamptrecht, do you deny that the revisionist thesis on the Holocaust is The Final Solution to the Jewish problem was a forced emigration program and not an extermination pogrom.?

[Zolton]

borjastick:

Stop avoiding the main claim that you have made and start trying to prove the points you think you know about. This isn't third grade playtime here, we are all equipped with X-Ray specs and bags of experience at this train stop mate and can sniff out half wits and fools from a mile off and in the dark!

borjastick, do you deny that the revisionist thesis on the Holocaust is The Final Solution to the Jewish problem was a forced emigration program and not an extermination pogrom?

[Nazgul]

Hilberg says about Die Fahrplananordnung 587 in Shoah: "low class of secrecy"
and continues: "cannot see the word Geheim - secret. It's astonishing to me."
Hilberg mainly speculates the meaning and content of Fahrplananordnung and suggests that if it would say: "Geheim!" "Secret",
it would raise more curiosity among those who handle it. After all, Treblinka was a secret camp.

The labour camp locations and total number are new but the stories of people arriving dead at Treblinka is somewhat archaic. The Belzec deaths by train have been discussed.

Here are some excepts from Sobibor by Mattogno et al. Sobibór—Holocaust Propaganda and Reality

Rumors spread
that these people, about 300 of them, came from Majdanek where the gas chambers were out of order. When they alighted from the train, they literally collapsed. SS Frenzel met them and poured chloride on their heads, as though they were already dead. The arrival of another convoy distressed me in the same way. It was thought to come from Lvov, but nobody knew for sure. Prisoners were sobbing and told us a dreadful tale: they had been gassed on the way with
chlorine, but some survived. The bodies of the dead were green and their skin had peeled off.”

Interesting that chlorine is used and bodies treated with "Chloride of Lime", which is known chemically as Calcium hypochlorite (CaOCl2), What is "Chloride of Lime" used for?

Chloride of Lime is a deodorant sanitising bleach used for general purpose cleaning and sanitising of concrete floors in farm dairies. link

.

It is a "bleach" similar to the Sodium Hypochlorite used in bleaches sold at the supermarket. Calcium hypochlorite decomposes in water to release chlorine and oxygen; calcium hypochlorite solutions can react with acids to release chlorine or chloramine in toxic quantities.

Bleach is used as a disinfectant today. This would have been used in the transports for hygiene.

Chlorine has been described as the gas used at Sobibor for executions; this morphed into the modern gassing narrative using a combination of suffocation and carbon monoxide, perhaps with a touch of Zyklon B, chlorine or some blackish gas. Like at Belzec the Sobibor gas chambers opened the doors to put the dead into tippers. and taken away.

This is also archaic and certainly not new research as the OP mentioned but did not elaborate. The journey time from Lublin to Sobibor is 2 hours approx, though from Lviv it would be close to 8 hours.

Die Fahrplananordnung 587 has been taken out of context by Hilsberg and others, which was probably scheduling daily travel between Labour camps, railway junctions and manufacturing facilities. These were important for the movement of goods and people essential to the war effort. There would be no need to use the word "Geheime" (secret) regarding such routine scheduling.

Nessie postulated that the stops could be for coal, water, breaks and allowing important transports to use the lines.
I noticed that Zolten started asking the Gerdes type questions of a similar type; no information is offered in return.

Steam trains were serviced at various places, and could get water and fuel in a matter of minutes from machines and tanks above or near the track. This is depicted in the image below.

Hour long stops are not needed for this process. Anyone familiar with railways will know there are "sidings" where a train will pull into to allow another train to pass. This are located at various places along all railways, not in cities and not regarded as a stop.

[Butterfangers]

Hour long stops are needed for this process. Anyone familiar with railways will know there are "sidings" where a train will pull into to allow another train to pass. This are located at various places along all railways, not in cities and not regarded as a stop.

Nazgul, reading into the context of your post, to clarify, I am pretty sure you meant to say "Hour long stops are not needed...", correct?