NEW Considerations on Treblinka and the AR Camps

[Butterfangers]

Please pardon the "NEW" in the title if I have somehow missed that this topic is already being discussed elsewhere in the forum but it was definitely new to me and I want to ensure it is brought further into the Revisionist sphere of discussion as it seems like a critical advancement on the topic of Treblinka and the AR camps and the looming question of "where did they [Jews] go?".

User "nazgul" at the new RODOH forum, in some of the posts there over recent months, has shared some analysis based on a German database which is currently still in development which, for the first time ever, maps out the thousands of additional Jewish internment sites (i.e. other than the well-known concentration camps and their satellites) for labor and detention of Jews and other groups. The project is the work of German Prof. Dr. Michael Fehr with the Karl Ernst Osthaus Museum, historian Cornelia Steinhauer and artist Sigrid Sigurdsson. From the website and database which is titled, simply, "List of national socialist camps and detention sites 1933 - 1945":

Between 1933 and 1945, the national socialist regime established a system of crime sites throughout Europe. In addition to concentration and extermination camps, sites termed “labour reformatory camps,“ “camps for the protection of juveniles“ and “police detention camps“ were erected, although the living conditions in these camps differed very little from those in the concentration camps.

Many of these crime sites have been forgotten and the extent of the persecution is practically unknown. A majority of these “forgotten sites” have been systematically collected in this database. So far over 3600 sites have been recorded. For the first time, various maps that visually present the topography of persecution were created based on collected facts.

Here is the site/database: http://www.deutschland-ein-denkmal.de/

It is interesting to see the movement of these labor camps (those to the east closed and apparently moved further west) as the war progressed. Comparisons for 1942 (before the war turned) and 1944 (when there was a retreat):

1942

1944

It is said that roughly 1.2 million Jews were transported to the AR camps by the end of 1942, with some 860,000 Jews sent to Treblinka. Perhaps the most important document which is referenced for this claim is the Korherr report which cites the precise figure of 1,274,166 Jews.

Previously, establishment historians and revisionists alike have generally accepted the view that these 1.2 million Jews actually ended up in the Treblinka II (TII) camp... the point of contention has been "where did they go" thereafter.

The reason this figure has become so widely accepted is that the Fahrplananordnung (train schedule) documents seem to show that Jewish passengers were all sent to the train's final destination of Treblinka (note however that TI vs. TII, etc. is not specified in these documents).

On the train schedules is the various stops along the way to Treblinka and the arrival/departure times which indicate the duration of time spent at each stop.

Here is an example (Fahrplananordnung Nr 587, Sep. 21-23):

What has not been confirmed up until recently (via the information in the database) is that in most of the stops over the various train schedules, each stop was actually a labor camp (or up to several labor camps in the same area). For the above example, "nazgul" writes:

Lets us examine the places the train passed through to Treblinka as mentioned on the document. Most of these camps opened early 1942 and closed 1944.


Sędziszów...Zwangsarbeitslager für Juden
Kielce...Zwangsarbeitslager für Juden...8 camps
Skarzysko Kemienna... [note: at times this camp held 8,000 prisoners!; see database entry]
Radom...Zwangsarbeitslager für Juden...3 camps
Deblin...Zwangsarbeitslager für Juden...6 camps
Lukow...Zwangsarbeitslager für Juden
Siedlce...Zwangsarbeitslager für Juden...6 camps
Treblinka...Zwangsarbeitslager für Juden...

Here is another example (Fahrplananordnung Nr 587, Sep. 25-26):

[...] I will rewrite them below with any known information. The camps mentioned are "labour camps for Jews".


Szydlowiec aka Szydlow...opened 1940..men..road construction
Radom...2 camps...opened 1941..closed 1944
Deblin obf (Oberpfaffenhofen or airport)..6 camps...runways and train tracks
Lukow...
Siedlce...6 camps
Treblinka


This journey deals with 16 labour camps for Jews. Then there is a return journey to Kozienice


Treblinka
Siedlce...6 camps
Lukow
Devlin obf...6 camps
Barowiec
Kozienice..2 camps


It seems that the timetable arrangements are going from Labour camp to Labour camp, not just in this journey but in the others mentioned as well. Ghettos are not being stopped at; this is clear when the Deblin airfield is specifically mentioned as a stopping point. It appears that workers were leaving the Treblinka camps with worker movement both ways.

More discussion and examples, here:
https://rodoh.info/thread/443/durchgang ... nia?page=1
...and beginning on page 11, here:
https://rodoh.info/thread/127/ar-camp-t ... ce?page=11

Since we now know there were forced labor camps at these stops, and since it has always been observed that the train routes were slower than one should expect for passengers being sent straight to Treblinka (Hilberg refers to it as "agonizing slowness"), it seems all but certain that a substantial number of Jews were let off at each of these stops. There are also apparently witness statements from those having traveled between labor camps along this line.

"nazgul" also outlines some compelling evidence which could suggest that Malkinia -- not TII -- actually served as the transit camp for those who would continue onto the Russian East. Reasons for this include:

- Statement from Arnulf Neumaier that, "there was another camp, Malkinia, 3.7 miles north of Treblinka. This was a transit and delousing camp ... probably for Jews being deported to destinations in Byelarus and Ukraine."
- Josepf Hirtreiter said he worked at the Malkinia camp (the judges decided it was TII)
- Early drawing of Treblinka map from Yankel Wiernik puts the camp at this general location
- Train schedules show that the time between departure at Malkinia and arrival at "Treblinka" is at or around just seven minutes (not at all long enough for a loaded steam engine train to travel to TI or TII, suggesting another camp nearby with this designation)

Here is a map of the surrounding area which also includes Rudolf's identified camp in the Malkinia area (if not a transit camp then possibly a POW camp with transit camp or site nearby):

In summary, the hypothesis being put forth is that the question of "where did Jews [sent to Treblinka II] go" is perhaps irrelevant (or less relevant) as it can be argued that a majority of them never arrived at TII in the first place. The train schedules for those allegedly killed at TII simply had written "Treblinka" (or even just "Malkinia", in some cases), indicating this as the final destination for the train--with or without any given number of passengers still on it. The chain of evidence for the train schedules as proof of 'extermination' at TII is broken due to the fact that in most stops over various schedules, each had one or more labor camps (and each of these holding up to thousands of inmates at any given time; more precise figures not yet known).

A couple more ideas were brought up on the subject of how this new information might fit into an understanding of TII. First, that TII may have primarily been a Judenlager to keep Jews separate from TI prisoners. As for any "extermination" to have occurred there, there would, of course, be those who were too elderly and/or ill to be able to work at any of the labor camps along the train route (or to be sent further east). It is suggested that these are the Jews (or others) who would most likely have been sent to TII, for euthanasia as part of Aktion 14f13... this could also explain why former T-4 staff were sent here as well.

Lastly, I have focused on the lines running to Treblinka however in the database hundreds of similar camps are shown in Austria, relevant to Hungarian Jews and Auschwitz, etc... Just something to keep in mind for future research.

[Lamprecht]

Since we now know there were forced labor camps at these stops, and since it has always been observed that the train routes were slower than one should expect for passengers being sent straight to Treblinka (Hilberg refers to it as "agonizing slowness"), it seems all but certain that a substantial number of Jews were let off at each of these stops. There are also apparently witness statements from those having traveled between labor camps along this line.

That's an interesting take and it makes a lot of sense.

Here is the site/database: http://www.deutschland-ein-denkmal.de/
...

1942

The maps are informative but unfortunately they do not show the camps any further east.

For example, if you go under the section:
Forced labour camps for Jews the Baltic states, Belarus, and Ukraine ("Reichskommissariate Ostland and Ukraine")
You will find 81 entries with the following map entry:
"Der Ort befindet sich außerhalb des Kartenausschnitts." (The location is outside the map section)

This is different from "Nein" (No) map entry.
Do they have no intention of ever mapping out the camps in the eastern territories?
This seems like a very unnecessary limitation.

[Iris]

Butterfangers:

Previously, establishment historians and revisionists alike have generally accepted the view that these 1.2 million Jews actually ended up in the Treblinka II (TII) camp...

Butterfangers, If "establishment historians have generally accepted the view that1.2 million Jews actually ended up in the Treblinka II (TII) camp" then why does this site:

https://hist1049-20.omeka.fas.harvard.edu/exhibits/show/treblinka

claim a figure of 750,000 dead?

Are you saying that "establishment historians" claim 450,000 Jews were transited through Treblinka II?

Can you name one "revisionist" who has "generally accepted the view that1.2 million Jews actually ended up in the Treblinka II (TII) camp"?

Butterfangers:

The reason this figure has become so widely accepted is that the Fahrplananordnung (train schedule) documents seem to show that Jewish passengers were all sent to the train's final destination of Treblinka.

So "previously" the 1.2 million figure was a "generally accepted view" but now its "widely accepted"?

Wasn't it previously claimed that, outside of a handful of Jews, virtually every Jew sent to Treblinka II ended up a a mass grave?

[Iris]

Butterfangers, what was the previous, generally accepted view of how many Jews ended up in a mass grave inside Treblinka II?

Butterfangers, what is the now widely accepted figure of how many Jews ended up in a mass grave inside Treblinka II?

[Butterfangers]

Butterfangers:

Previously, establishment historians and revisionists alike have generally accepted the view that these 1.2 million Jews actually ended up in the Treblinka II (TII) camp...

Butterfangers, If "establishment historians have generally accepted the view that1.2 million Jews actually ended up in the Treblinka II (TII) camp" then why does this site:

https://hist1049-20.omeka.fas.harvard.edu/exhibits/show/treblinka

claim a figure of 750,000 dead?

Are you saying that "establishment historians" claim 450,000 Jews were transited through Treblinka II?

Can you name one "revisionist" who has "generally accepted the view that1.2 million Jews actually ended up in the Treblinka II (TII) camp"?

Butterfangers:

The reason this figure has become so widely accepted is that the Fahrplananordnung (train schedule) documents seem to show that Jewish passengers were all sent to the train's final destination of Treblinka.

So "previously" the 1.2 million figure was a "generally accepted view" but now its "widely accepted"?

Wasn't it previously claimed that, outside of a handful of Jews, virtually every Jew sent to Treblinka II ended up a a mass grave?

The 1.2 million refers to all AR camps (Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec). This is how many people the documents say were sent out of the ghettos and to the East.

Revisionists and establishment historians have only really argued what happened to those Jews once they arrived at TII. No one (until recently) has really stopped to consider how many even made it that far along the train route(s). Many or most, it would seem, departed at various labor camps along the way.

[Iris]

Butterfangers:

The 1.2 million refers to all AR camps (Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec). This is how many people the documents say were sent out of the ghettos and to the East.

Oh, I see. So when you wrote this:

Previously, establishment historians and revisionists alike have generally accepted the view that these 1.2 million Jews actually ended up in the Treblinka II (TII) camp...

You were just being sloppy.

Thanks for correcting yourself.


Butterfangers:

Revisionists and establishment historians have only really argued what happened to those Jews once they arrived at TII.

If that's the case, then why does this site https://hist1049-20.omeka.fas.harvard.edu/exhibits/show/treblinka claim a death toll of 750,000, yet the USHMM claims a death toll of 925,000?


Butterfangers:

No one (until recently) has really stopped to consider how many even made it that far along the train route(s). Many or most, it would seem, departed at various labor camps along the way.

So you agree that the death toll claims made by establishment historians about Treblinka II are, at the very least, gross exaggerations?

[Iris]

Butterfangers, I know you corrected your original mistake in your previous post, but, since you seem to be very knowledgeable about Treblinka II, I'm still interested in seeing your answers to the two questions I asked you:

Butterfangers, what was the previous, generally accepted view of how many Jews ended up in a mass grave inside Treblinka II?

Butterfangers, what is the now widely accepted figure of how many Jews ended up in a mass grave inside Treblinka II?

[Butterfangers]

Butterfangers, I know you corrected your original mistake in your previous post, but, since you seem to be very knowledgeable about Treblinka II, I'm still interested in seeing your answers to the two questions I asked you:

Butterfangers, what was the previous, generally accepted view of how many Jews ended up in a mass grave inside Treblinka II?

Butterfangers, what is the now widely accepted figure of how many Jews ended up in a mass grave inside Treblinka II?

I am not clear on what you mean by "previous" and "now". Do you mean before/after this new information regarding labor camps along the Treblinka train route?

If so, the point here is that we no longer have any idea how many ever made it to Treblinka (TII). The previously accepted view of how many got there was somewhere around 800,000.

As far as how many are "generally accepted" to have ended up in a mass grave before this information of these labor camps came about, I think that would depend on whether you are referring to Revisionists or establishment historians. If the former, close to zero. If the latter, close to 800,000.

With this new information, the number that either Revisionists or establishment historians can claim were either transited or killed in Treblinka is anywhere from 0 to 800,000 but probably much closer to zero (0), given that we know lots of people departed at these various stops (camps), that some were even transited between them, etc. We also know that T-4 staff were moved into the AR camps such as Treblinka which, I think, adds weight to the view that this camp had a more limited function of administering euthanasia to those few who were severely ill or otherwise meeting criteria for Aktion 14f13.

Those who remained could still have been transited further east but it is unclear how many this is.

To the establishment historians, given their chain of evidence is now further distorted, they are no longer simply having to answer the question of, "how many are buried in mass graves at Treblinka?" but also "how many even arrived there in the first place?". Their physical evidence was already entirely absent and now their documentary trail has been thoroughly broken as well. There were stops all along that route, virtually all of them had one or several labor camps, some (or perhaps all, precise data still unknown) of these camps had thousands of inmates at any given time. And those who made it further East would still need to be taken into account (all things considered, this total number may be much smaller than was previously thought, which further refutes the Believer notion that there should have been abundant evidence for those who were transited).

All in all, this is very good for Revisionism. It could ultimately be considered (or at least lead to) the "final nail in the coffin" for claims about AR camps being the final destination (and resting place) for those sent out of the ghettoes.

[Hektor]

Butterfangers:

Previously, establishment historians and revisionists alike have generally accepted the view that these 1.2 million Jews actually ended up in the Treblinka II (TII) camp...

....
Wasn't it previously claimed that, outside of a handful of Jews, virtually every Jew sent to Treblinka II ended up a a mass grave?

The 1.2 million refers to all AR camps (Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec). This is how many people the documents say were sent out of the ghettos and to the East.

Revisionists and establishment historians have only really argued what happened to those Jews once they arrived at TII. No one (until recently) has really stopped to consider how many even made it that far along the train route(s). Many or most, it would seem, departed at various labor camps along the way.

I think some at the documents presented at the IMT actually indicated resettlement and exactly the policy to move Jews to labor camps were there was some opportunity in doing so. In summary those documents don't indicate an extermination policy against Jews. Just that one wasn't to fond of them and that one actually would use maximum force against them, if necessary. Given the general treatment of this feature of war. There is really not a lot to write home to. That explains why there was lots of creative license in making atrocity claims. They needed story that would maximize outrage and grasp people's imagination.

[Iris]

Butterfangers:

the point here is that we no longer have any idea how many ever made it to Treblinka (TII).

Are you saying that we once did?

Butterfangers:

The previously accepted view of how many got there was somewhere around 800,000.

Then why does the USHMM claim 925,000 Jews were murdered at Treblinka II??

Butterfangers:

With this new information, the number that either Revisionists or establishment historians can claim were either transited or killed in Treblinka is anywhere from 0 to 800,000 but probably much closer to zero (0),

Can you name one revisionist who claims that the number of Jews who actually set foot in the Treblinka II camp is zero?

Can you prove that Jews put on trains headed east were not transited past Treblinka without disembarking prior to or at Treblinka II?

Butterfangers:

We also know that T-4 staff were moved into the AR camps such as Treblinka which, I think, adds weight to the view that this camp had a more limited function of administering euthanasia to those few who were severely ill or otherwise meeting criteria for Aktion 14f13.

How many Jews have been proven to have been euthanized at Belzec? Sobibor? Treblinka?

Butterfangers:

To the establishment historians, given their chain of evidence is now further distorted, they are no longer simply having to answer the question of, "how many are buried in mass graves at Treblinka?" but also "how many even arrived there in the first place?".

They've always had to answer that question, as the number claimed to have been "buried in mass graves" was almost identical to "how many even arrived there in the first place."

Butterfangers:

And those who made it further East would still need to be taken into account

So Butterfangers, how many Jews can you prove were put on trains heading east but never made it further east than Belzec? Sobibor? Treblinka?

[Iris]

Butterfangers:

The 1.2 million refers to all AR camps (Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec). This is how many people the documents say were sent out of the ghettos and to the East.

So why does the claim of murdered and burred Jews at Bezec, Sobibor and Treblinka II total 1,775,000?

[Butterfangers]

Butterfangers:

The 1.2 million refers to all AR camps (Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec). This is how many people the documents say were sent out of the ghettos and to the East.

So why does the claim of murdered and burred Jews at Bezec, Sobibor and Treblinka II total 1,775,000?

I'm not sure where you are going with your line of questioning, at this point. It seems focused on the irrelevant / beside the point. The 1.2 million figure, if I recall correctly, is based on the Korherr report which calculates (or claims to) the totals through the end of 1942. My guess based on the number you cite is that more are said to have been sent to the AR camps in 1943, totaling to 1.775 million. Beyond that, I'm not sure.

[Butterfangers]

I didn't notice you had replied twice.

Butterfangers:

the point here is that we no longer have any idea how many ever made it to Treblinka (TII).

Are you saying that we once did?

No, if you are asking my own opinion, there are no mass graves in Treblinka, there never were. I would perhaps not be surprised to eventually find smaller grave(s) with up to hundreds of bodies or so which could account for euthanasia or other natural deaths within the camp but I do not think there is any proof of this currently. As of now, the evidence shows zero (other than those 4-5 bodies which were photographed, as I recall).

Butterfangers:

The previously accepted view of how many got there was somewhere around 800,000.

Then why does the USHMM claim 925,000 Jews were murdered at Treblinka II??

Again, I assume we may be working with figures for different time periods (either through 1942 or in total), or simply different estimates from different sources (whether establishment or Revisionist) based on documents that either are or are not taken into account. For the point I have addressed here, this isn't really all that important since these estimates are another question entirely. The topic I have raised here is the question of, what proportion of Jews---of those sent out of the ghettoes onto a train with the final destination listed as "Treblinka"---actually ever made it to Treblinka II at all. That's the only topic being discussed here. I am quite sure there are many other threads which deal with the various estimates of how many are said to have been sent down the line at all and for what time periods.

Butterfangers:

With this new information, the number that either Revisionists or establishment historians can claim were either transited or killed in Treblinka is anywhere from 0 to 800,000 but probably much closer to zero (0),

Can you name one revisionist who claims that the number of Jews who actually set foot in the Treblinka II camp is zero?

Can you prove that Jews put on trains headed east were not transited past Treblinka without disembarking prior to or at Treblinka II?

No, I can not name any Revisionists who say that. Can you name even one Revisionist who has taken these newly-discovered labor camps into account? This is new information, it has not been published before. Any works or discussion by any Revisionists (or establishment historians) with regard to arrivals at Treblinka will need to factor this information into their account, going forward. It has not been done as of yet.

I cannot prove where anyone did or did not disembark from the trains, I can only say that evidence strongly suggests many (if not most) of them disembarked before ever getting as far as Treblinka.

Butterfangers:

We also know that T-4 staff were moved into the AR camps such as Treblinka which, I think, adds weight to the view that this camp had a more limited function of administering euthanasia to those few who were severely ill or otherwise meeting criteria for Aktion 14f13.

How many Jews have been proven to have been euthanized at Belzec? Sobibor? Treblinka?

Precisely zero. But Aktion 14f13 is generally accepted by Revisionists to have administered the euthanasia of a small number of those meeting specific criteria in various camps, so it would not at all be unreasonable to assume that if T-4 staff were sent to a particular camp, we might think that some of these operations could have taken place there.

Establishment historians have said T-4 staff being at AR camps supports the idea of mass extermination of Jews but mass exterminating Jews was never their specialty---medical euthanasia was. So for them to be there for euthanasia purposes makes a lot more sense. And if TII sat at the end of a long line of labor camps but prior to transit further east, it seems like a sensible place for any such euthanasia operations to take place. It's just speculation, my own opinion. Feel free to share yours and we can compare ideas.

Butterfangers:

To the establishment historians, given their chain of evidence is now further distorted, they are no longer simply having to answer the question of, "how many are buried in mass graves at Treblinka?" but also "how many even arrived there in the first place?".

They've always had to answer that question, as the number claimed to have been "buried in mass graves" was almost identical to "how many even arrived there in the first place."

Right, but they used to be able to point to documents which show how many Jews were sent out of the ghettoes "to Treblinka" as the number which perished there. They still had no evidence of how many perished but now, it turns out, the number which documents show were sent "to Treblinka", in many cases, probably never arrived there at all. This is new information.

Butterfangers:

And those who made it further East would still need to be taken into account

So Butterfangers, how many Jews can you prove were put on trains heading east but never made it further east than Belzec? Sobibor? Treblinka?

I would not try to prove that. At this point, we don't have any precise estimate at all of how many Jews disembarked at any of the given stops or arrived at the nearby labor camps. Neither Revisionists nor establishment historians have this information. Without it, no one can even claim to estimate accurately (or even approximately) how many Jews ever arrived further east.

[borjastick]

No trains were sent directly to Treblinka as far as I know. This is because the train track that was installed was a small branch line and originally put in solely for access to T2.

All main line trains going east with deportees went into Malkinia Junction just a few KMs up the line. It was a major railway hub and as far as I have read it couldn't cope with the number of train arrivals and of course the human passengers who were transiting through the station changing trains for the different gauge Russian lines to take them into the Russian territories.

Treblinka 2 was thus built down the available spur line to allow an overflow location where passengers could disembark, take a shower, hang around a little until suitable services were available back up the line at Malkinia Junction.

I feel quite certain of this and am positive that if I was to go to Malkinia I would be able to find records, pictures etc of the mass migration activity at the time.

[Butterfangers]

No trains were sent directly to Treblinka as far as I know. This is because the train track that was installed was a small branch line and originally put in solely for access to T2.

All main line trains going east with deportees went into Malkinia Junction just a few KMs up the line. It was a major railway hub and as far as I have read it couldn't cope with the number of train arrivals and of course the human passengers who were transiting through the station changing trains for the different gauge Russian lines to take them into the Russian territories.

Treblinka 2 was thus built down the available spur line to allow an overflow location where passengers could disembark, take a shower, hang around a little until suitable services were available back up the line at Malkinia Junction.

I feel quite certain of this and am positive that if I was to go to Malkinia I would be able to find records, pictures etc of the mass migration activity at the time.

Did you perhaps already go through the discussion here:
https://rodoh.info/thread/443/durchgang ... nia?page=1

And here (starting on p. 11)?:
https://rodoh.info/thread/127/ar-camp-t ... ce?page=11

Both are very relevant to your point, with evidence provided in support.