Mass Grave Found near Soldau (?)

[Mongol]

How far down did they have to dig to get to the "ashes"?

I now found an article where they said that it was about 1.5 meters (https://olsztyn.tvp.pl/61266399/w-lesie-bialuckim-odkryto-dwa-masowe-groby-z-prochami-ofiar-kl-soldau):

> "We discovered two mass graves; one was 28 meters long, the other 12 meters. The pits are about 3 meters deep" - said Jankowski, adding that the layer of human ashes started about 1.5 meters under the forest litter.

The article linked above also said that the items they found had low material value:

> Archaeologists found several hundred artifacts in the burial pits in the Białuty forest, incl. buttons, scapulars and crosses, and paper cutters. Prosecutor Jankowski said that these are things of low material value, which is confirmed by the robbing of the corpse before burning it, and in addition, these artifacts are not personalized enough to be able to reach their owners or their families with their help.

However in 2019, the IPN said that the items they found included religious medals and wedding rings (https://gdansk.ipn.gov.pl/pl2/aktualnosci/80334,Odnaleziono-grob-cialopalny-Bialuty-2631-pazdziernika-2019.html). I wonder how come the Nazis didn't remove the wedding rings before they buried the ashes, because the IPN says that the Nazis extracted bone fragments from the ashes and ground them up with a ball mill.

I earlier thought that the place where they did the excavations in 2022 and 2019 may have been about 1 km east-northeast of the memorial site (because on Google Maps, that spot looks somewhat similar to the aerial photos of the excavation site, where you can see that on the opposite side of the road from the excavation site, there's an obtuse angle in the area of the forest that has not been cleared out). But one article about the 2022 dig said that "About one hundred meters from the place where the Institute of National Remembrance conducted its research, there is a monument 'Victims of Hitler's Crimes'." (https://radioolsztyn.pl/w-lesie-odkryto-masowe-groby-z-prochami-wiezniow-niemieckiego-obozu/01646917)

The same article also said that the victims in Białuty were "most probably buried in three mass graves" (even though at the memorial site there's supposed to be five different spots where the victims were buried):

> The research carried out by the Institute of National Remembrance is to specify these numbers. They were mainly prisoners of the German concentration camp in Działdowo. The murdered were most probably buried in three mass graves in an area that covered about 200 hectares of dense forest.
> In 2019, one of the execution sites in the Białuty Forest was started by the Institute of National Remembrance.

Apparently some historians say that only around 1000-3000 people may have died in Soldau, but the IPN is trying to use these phony excavations to establish a higher minimum limit for the death toll at Soldau (https://polskieradio24.pl/39/156/artykul/3001776,ipn-odnalazl-prochy-8-tysiecy-osob-zamordowanych-przez-niemcow-w-obozie-w-dzialdowie):

> Tomasz Jankowski emphasized that the discovery of these two burial pits is extremely important for the knowledge of the scale of German crimes in Działdowo.
> - In the historical space, in the public space, it is assumed that from one thousand to three thousand people died in the camp in Działdowo. Many people believe that 30,000 people died here. During the investigation, we identified three thousand victims by name and surname, but we were sure that there were many more of these people. For this reason, this place is a breakthrough for us, because we are able to say that at least eight thousand people died in the Działdowo camp. Nobody will say that these are empty graves, nobody will question the crimes committed by the Germans anymore - he explained.

[borjastick]

So excavation is allowed here but never at Treblinka, Sobibor, Auschwitz etc or am I missing something?

[Reviso]

Soldau facts-

The example of Sachsenhausen should be considered...the Soviets murdered over 12,000 Germans in Sachsenhausen after May 1945.
When their bodies were uncovered in 1990 guess who got blamed? Yes, Germans. That was proven to be incorrect.

May I ask for a good reference about the fact that Germans were blamed and that it was proven to be incorrect ? I don't find this in the English, French and German Wikipedias. Thanks in advance.

[Butterfangers]

Here is my take on some key points and context:

1. Soviets setup their "Extraordinary State Commission" in late 1942 to gather evidence (or propaganda) to prove (or frame) the guilt of Germany in mass murder.
2. As they advance west with the German retreat in 1943-4, Soviets reconquer territory that had been occupied by the Germans and are simultaneously producing reports which are, together, a mixture of very little truth and a whole lot of false or implausible narrative for propaganda purposes (see: Mattogno, 'Einsatzgruppen').
3. The effort of fabricating lies and half-truths continues. The largely-fraudulent narrative has become more developed, has the familiar elements of "Aktion 1005" (cremation, crushing bones, etc.).
4. In January, 1945, the Soviets take over the German camp at Soldau and install their own, which houses political prisoners including Germans, with numbers not precisely known. Similar Soviet camps had thousands of deaths.
5. Flash-forward to present day and the crushed remains of anywhere between 1,000 - 8,000 bodies (a number determined by whether wood ash, moisture, other materials were ruled out from the total-by-weight calculation) is allegedly or apparently found at the former Soldau camp(s).
6. The investigators assert with certainty this is proof of Germans hiding their crimes, do not acknowledge even a possibility that the Soviets planted evidence (tons of ash and crushed bone) against the Germans while potentially hiding their own crimes in this process. Nothing is known of what happened to those who perished at the hands of the Soviets in the Soldau camp.

[borjastick]

6. The investigators assert with certainty this is proof of Germans hiding their crimes, do not acknowledge even a possibility that the Soviets planted evidence (tons of ash and crushed bone) against the Germans while potentially hiding their own crimes in this process. Nothing is known of what happened to those who perished at the hands of the Soviets in the Soldau camp.

What tons of ash and remains etc??? Where is this ash?

[Butterfangers]

6. The investigators assert with certainty this is proof of Germans hiding their crimes, do not acknowledge even a possibility that the Soviets planted evidence (tons of ash and crushed bone) against the Germans while potentially hiding their own crimes in this process. Nothing is known of what happened to those who perished at the hands of the Soviets in the Soldau camp.

What tons of ash and remains etc??? Where is this ash?

I am not sure what you mean. Are you saying this is something other than tons of ash and bones?

[borjastick]

6. The investigators assert with certainty this is proof of Germans hiding their crimes, do not acknowledge even a possibility that the Soviets planted evidence (tons of ash and crushed bone) against the Germans while potentially hiding their own crimes in this process. Nothing is known of what happened to those who perished at the hands of the Soviets in the Soldau camp.

What tons of ash and remains etc??? Where is this ash?

I am not sure what you mean. Are you saying this is something other than tons of ash and bones?

I DON"T SEE ASH AND BONES I see discoloured earth which could be for example burnt wood ash from a fire pit or some other such rubbish etc. Until it is independently verified and reported on we simply cannot accept what these people claim.

[Butterfangers]

I DON"T SEE ASH AND BONES I see discoloured earth which could be for example burnt wood ash from a fire pit or some other such rubbish etc. Until it is independently verified and reported on we simply cannot accept what these people claim.

I agree there is reason to suspect this was a fraudulent excavation, simply because there are huge incentives (and available means) for those in power to orchestrate such a thing. But I am not sure if you are suggesting the IPN and its experts, in particular, are suspect. Have we seen any evidence of their lacking credibility or dishonest representations (or fabrications) in the past, which could weigh in favor of this suspicion?

I would like to consider all possible angles but I have for awhile been of the view that the Soviets were doing more than just fabricating documents and false testimony in their campaign of lies against Germany. If they had control of a territory that the Germans did immediately prior, were already claiming the Germans burned/crushed their victims, and were killing thousands, themselves, why not simply burn/crush their victims and bury them on-site, knowing the Germans would inevitably take the blame, should the remains ever be unearthed?

[Merlin300]

I DON"T SEE ASH AND BONES I see discoloured earth which could be for example burnt wood ash from a fire pit or some other such rubbish etc. Until it is independently verified and reported on we simply cannot accept what these people claim.

I agree there is reason to suspect this was a fraudulent excavation, simply because there are huge incentives (and available means) for those in power to orchestrate such a thing. But I am not sure if you are suggesting the IPN and its experts, in particular, are suspect. Have we seen any evidence of their lacking credibility or dishonest representations (or fabrications) in the past, which could weigh in favor of this suspicion?

I would like to consider all possible angles but I have for awhile been of the view that the Soviets were doing more than just fabricating documents and false testimony in their campaign of lies against Germany. If they had control of a territory that the Germans did immediately prior, were already claiming the Germans burned/crushed their victims, and were killing thousands, themselves, why not simply burn/crush their victims and bury them on-site, knowing the Germans would inevitably take the blame, should the remains ever be unearthed?

I think that Believers occasionally do excavate. What is exaggerated or incorrectly assigned are the results of the dig.

[Mongol]

I am not sure what you mean. Are you saying this is something other than tons of ash and bones?

In that photo, there's maybe 1.3*0.4*0.2=0.104 cubic meters of ashes visible (or some kind of gray stuff that's supposed to represent ashes). And ashes are supposed to weigh about 610 kg per cubic meter, so at my estimated volume, the ashes in that photo would weigh around 60 kg. (But it could even that there's not even that much ash and they just pressed a thin layer of ashes against the wall of of the hole.)

But I think it's more or less clear that they just threw the ashes in the hole after they had already dug the hole. If you look at the photos below, I think there's a spot where there was no ash visible at an earlier stage of the excavation but where later they mysteriously found ash:



And why would there only be such a thin layer of ash anyway? In the earlier photo, there's no ashes visible yet even though they've already dug almost to the same depth where later they mysteriously found ashes. And in the earlier photo, you can see that they were digging at the spot with regular shovels, but in the later photo, I can't see any sharp edges around the area of ashes or any shovel marks where you could see that part of the ashes were removed. And there doesn't seem to be any sand remaining on top of the ashes.

You can try yourself to dig a hole with an area of about 10m², cover the floor of the hole with a layer of between a few millimeters and few centimeters of ashes, and fill the hole with sand again. Then can you remove the sand with a shovel so that there's only a few millimeters of ashes left at the bottom of the hole, and there's no sand left on top of the ashes, and there's no sharp boundaries or scoop marks in the area of ashes?

The area of ash also looks like a rectangle with rounded corners, and it looks like it consists of several small piles or clusters of sand that have rounded corners. The small piles have a thicker layer of sand at the center and a thinner layer at the periphery, like what would happen if you dropped a series of small piles of ash on the ground so that they expanded radially outwards from the spot where they hit the ground.

In 2019, the IPN is supposed to have found 1.5 tons of ashes, but this was all the ashes that was visible in the photos from 2019:



The area of ashes from 2019 has a splat-like pattern like what would happen if you threw a bunch of ashes on the ground. The area has round corners, and I can't see any shovel marks or sharp edges, and I can't see any sand remaining on top of the area of ashes. There's also a thinner layer of ash at the peripheries of the area and a thicker layer at the center (even though if the ashes represented the remnants of 1.5 tons of ashes dumped into a hole, you'd expect that the entire bottom of the hole was originally packed with ashes). The pattern of ashes is somewhat similar to this photo:

[Iris]

I DON"T SEE ASH AND BONES I see discoloured earth which could be for example burnt wood ash from a fire pit or some other such rubbish etc. Until it is independently verified and reported on we simply cannot accept what these people claim.

I agree there is reason to suspect this was a fraudulent excavation, simply because there are huge incentives (and available means) for those in power to orchestrate such a thing. But I am not sure if you are suggesting the IPN and its experts, in particular, are suspect. Have we seen any evidence of their lacking credibility or dishonest representations (or fabrications) in the past, which could weigh in favor of this suspicion?

I would like to consider all possible angles but I have for awhile been of the view that the Soviets were doing more than just fabricating documents and false testimony in their campaign of lies against Germany. If they had control of a territory that the Germans did immediately prior, were already claiming the Germans burned/crushed their victims, and were killing thousands, themselves, why not simply burn/crush their victims and bury them on-site, knowing the Germans would inevitably take the blame, should the remains ever be unearthed?

Butterfangers, can you prove that 17.5 tons of human remains were actually discovered in this alleged mass grave?

[Butterfangers]

In that photo, there's maybe 1.3*0.4*0.2=0.104 cubic meters of ashes visible (or some kind of gray stuff that's supposed to represent ashes). And ashes are supposed to weigh about 610 kg per cubic meter, so at my estimated volume, the ashes in that photo would weigh around 60 kg. (But it could even that there's not even that much ash and they just pressed a thin layer of ashes against the wall of of the hole.)

Yes, this is what is shown in the hole. So do you acknowledge that 60 kg of remains were found? I think it is possible that this photo was not meant to show the entire excavation, just one angle of it.

But I think it's more or less clear that they just threw the ashes in the hole after they had already dug the hole. If you look at the photos below, I think there's a spot where there was no ash visible at an earlier stage of the excavation but where later they mysteriously found ash:

There is clearly more earth in the hole in the earlier photo which was removed by the time of the later photo. It does look like they could have just thrown it (the ash) in. But it also looks like they could have dug it out and that it was just shuffled around on the top-layer as they did so (some shuffling would be expected from footsteps and other movement, especially if they saw no purpose to avoiding this).

You can try yourself to dig a hole with an area of about 10m², cover the floor of the hole with a layer of between a few millimeters and few centimeters of ashes, and fill the hole with sand again. Then can you remove the sand with a shovel so that there's only a few millimeters of ashes left at the bottom of the hole, and there's no sand left on top of the ashes, and there's no sharp boundaries or scoop marks in the area of ashes?

The area of ash also looks like a rectangle with rounded corners, and it looks like it consists of several small piles or clusters of sand that have rounded corners. The small piles have a thicker layer of sand at the center and a thinner layer at the periphery, like what would happen if you dropped a series of small piles of ash on the ground so that they expanded radially outwards from the spot where they hit the ground.

We are getting into the weeds, here. I do not claim to know exactly how an excavation (or this excavation, in particular) was dug. I.e. what the protocols are for digging out ash, if there were any at all, how and whether scoops of ash were taken out and then dropped adjacent to the spot they were dug from, etc. The photos are simply showing, I think, that ash was dug out in the approximate area shown. Even if I do believe what you are saying is possible or even plausible, it is at least my opinion that this will not be convincing enough to prove fraudulence of this excavation. Nor do we need to. The Soviets were also at this camp and were pushing propaganda already by the time that they were---propaganda of the Germans "covering up their crimes" with bone-grinding and burial of ashes. This gave a clear incentive for the Soviets to dispose of their own victims and casualties in this way. They could easily have had the means to do so.

In 2019, the IPN is supposed to have found 1.5 tons of ashes, but this was all the ashes that was visible in the photos from 2019:



The area of ashes from 2019 has a splat-like pattern like what would happen if you threw a bunch of ashes on the ground. The area has round corners, and I can't see any shovel marks or sharp edges, and I can't see any sand remaining on top of the area of ashes. There's also a thinner layer of ash at the peripheries of the area and a thicker layer at the center (even though if the ashes represented the remnants of 1.5 tons of ashes dumped into a hole, you'd expect that the entire bottom of the hole was originally packed with ashes). The pattern of ashes is somewhat similar to this photo:

Again, it is not clear to me what this is intended to portray. I might expect to see this if they had dug into a few large shovels full of thick, dark ash, threw them gently aside, then walked over them a few times. What they are showing here might not be, "here is proof of 17 tons" but, rather, "look, there is ash".

There may be some validity in what you are saying but it will require more than some assertive interpretation of the subtle ambiguities in these photographs. The obvious questions are: if this is a fraudulent excavation, what motivated the "experts" to do so? How did they get away with it? It requires a more in-depth investigation than what can be surmised here from analysis of these photos, alone.

Butterfangers, can you prove that 17.5 tons of human remains were actually discovered in this alleged mass grave?

I cannot prove even 0.00001 tons were discovered in this alleged mass grave but it is not me who has set out to do so. I fully accept that there may, in fact, be zero human remains at this location, simply because I (like most of us here) understand the stakes and the depravity and unlimited resources of the liars we are up against. The issue is, the IPN is seen as a credible organization when it comes to something like the excavation shown here. People will find it convincing. It is our job to show that it is not. Saying "these photos kinda look like ______", alone, is not sufficient.

Also, I agree with Lamprecht's earlier analysis that, even if confirmed they found 17 tons of ash-remains, most of this was probably fuel and the actual human remains would have been substantially less.

[Iris]

So do you acknowledge that 60 kg of remains were found?

...

I cannot prove even 0.00001 tons were discovered in this alleged mass grave...

Why do you ask Mongol if he "acknowledges that 60 kg of remains were found" when you yourself admit that you cannot prove that even 0.00001 tons were discovered in this alleged mass grave?

Butterfangers:

Also, I agree with Lamprecht's earlier analysis that, even if confirmed they found 17 tons of ash-remains, most of this was probably fuel and the actual human remains would have been substantially less.

Yes Butterfanger, 0.00001 tons of "ash-remains" would be "substantially less" than 17.5 tons of human remains.

[Butterfangers]

So do you acknowledge that 60 kg of remains were found?

...

I cannot prove even 0.00001 tons were discovered in this alleged mass grave...

Why do you ask Mongol if he "acknowledges that 60 kg of remains were found" when you yourself admit that you cannot prove that even 0.00001 tons were discovered in this alleged mass grave?

I already explained this. I am not the one who set out to prove it. This organization (IPN) claims to have done so, which we are all discussing here. This organization's reputation to the general public holds weight. So, if we want to refute its findings, we need to provide evidence that these are not human remains and/or that this organization perpetrated a fraudulent excavation. Bickering at me about, "well, YOU can't prove these are even human remains!" is pointless.

I asked Mongol the question because I have no problem accepting that these may be human remains. Others here do and they make assertions as though they know with certainty these are not human remains.

Butterfangers:

Also, I agree with Lamprecht's earlier analysis that, even if confirmed they found 17 tons of ash-remains, most of this was probably fuel and the actual human remains would have been substantially less.

Yes Butterfanger, 0.00001 tons of "ash-remains" would be "substantially less" than 17.5 tons of human remains.

As would just a couple tons of actual, human remains. Either way, the question of who buried them remains at the forefront, unless you are suggesting evidence that they were never buried at all.

[Iris]

Butterfangers

Bickering at me about, "well, YOU can't prove these are even human remains!" is pointless.

No it's not. Prove that that the "human remains" allegations have been substantiated.

Butterfangers

I have no problem accepting that these may be human remains.

You accept something as true that only "may" be true? Let's see the proof that it's actually true.

Butterfangers

Others here do and they make assertions as though they know with certainty these are not human remains.

Then let's see the proof that these are human remains.

Butterfangers

Either way, the question of who buried them remains at the forefront, unless you are suggesting evidence that they were never buried at all.

Who is "them / they"? It needs to be proven that this alleged mass grave actually contains human remains before you can make assertions about "them / they" being buried.

Iris

Yes Butterfanger, 0.00001 tons of "ash-remains" would be "substantially less" than 17.5 tons of human remains.

Butterfangers

As would just a couple tons of actual, human remains.

How about just a couple ounces?

What can you prove Butterfangers?