As the opening poster I would just like to say that this subject is such an obstacle course. I've looked on a couple of other sites with opposing views and their arguments are convincing as well. I think it's these minor details that make it so difficult to establish a view. I am beginning to see the holocaust subject with a more critical eye though.
I can say is that I do know that it is possible to delude people on a such a great scale. In the modern Western world there's a terrifying, massive con trick that's taking place in front of everyone right now. I see it happening in front of my eyes. What I mean is the huge denial by most people of the problems created by the concept of racial or cultural integration. I've seen how a whole generation has been indoctrinated with a dishonest, contrived ideal. The truth that's happening in front of their eyes is completely disregarded. So I am aware that it is possible to embed a "truth" in people's minds.
Anyway, I'm still looking around here. The quote in a post above by Elie Weisel - I won't scroll back - about truth being not about things that happened is quite significant. Someone posted the longer quote on my Twitter timeline.
Why would they invent this ?
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borjastick
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Re: Why would they invent this ?
Hi Sweeney
I have just re-read your original post and wonder if you mean something rather different to what I thought.
You seem to perhaps mean that if it is real no one would question it and if it is made up how did so many people get in on the scheme?
Take the moon landings, which have long been the subject of conspiracy theorists. The general doubt about it being a conspiracy is that if it was a fake moon landing how did so many people join in and then keep the secret for so many decades? But that would suggest that at the outset a group of people, perhaps from the White House down, decided to scheme and fake the whole thing.
The holocaust is a completely different set of circumstances.
The jews had made an enemy of themselves in the eyes of the Germany leaders and had allowed them to put them in a stranglehold, which led to expulsions and an overall desire to rid all of Germany and a wider body of them. The zionist leaders saw an opportunity to exploit this golden one off chance to their advantage, a zionist state. The more blood on the pavement the better as far as they were concerned. That particular theory is well explored in a very good book - The Founding Myths of Modern Israel. A smooth exit for all jews under German control wouldn't persuade the outside world to give them or realistically, steal land from Palestine.
Thus it was in their interests to make the blood thicker, the pain greater and the suffering worse than any other in history. The PR/propaganda war went into overdrive.
On the subject of ordinary jews incarcerated in camps, they would have been tired, undernourished and scared. Rumours would have spread like wildfire. Nothing they heard subsequently could have changed their minds that all those jews who came in on last night's trains disappeared, when in fact they were shaved, showered and sent to work in the vastness of Auschwitz (40sq kilometers) or sent to other camps to work for the war effort. Many who went through Treblinka were simply expelled into the Russian hinterlands. Some of those died of course.
After the war their suspicions were absolutely supported and reinforced by the stories told at Nuremberg and retold in many a film, news reel, story of a survivor and like all stories they get repeatedly worse and more dire.
Indeed as a fact they never did hear from many or all of their extended families, but this wasn't because they were gassed or died in camps but because they went elsewhere in the world.
It isn't a conspiracy of a faked moon landing, after all that would be out of this world! No it was a set of circumstances that allowed many lying and scheming shysters to claim anything they like without fear of criticism, for that would be an act of evil anti semitism.
Your average Joe Schlomo was not 'in on it' save for the fact that it all made sense to him and being a good jew he couldn't possibly look his fellow jews in the eye in synagogue if he didn't go full metal holocaust and six million at every opportunity.
I have just re-read your original post and wonder if you mean something rather different to what I thought.
You seem to perhaps mean that if it is real no one would question it and if it is made up how did so many people get in on the scheme?
Take the moon landings, which have long been the subject of conspiracy theorists. The general doubt about it being a conspiracy is that if it was a fake moon landing how did so many people join in and then keep the secret for so many decades? But that would suggest that at the outset a group of people, perhaps from the White House down, decided to scheme and fake the whole thing.
The holocaust is a completely different set of circumstances.
The jews had made an enemy of themselves in the eyes of the Germany leaders and had allowed them to put them in a stranglehold, which led to expulsions and an overall desire to rid all of Germany and a wider body of them. The zionist leaders saw an opportunity to exploit this golden one off chance to their advantage, a zionist state. The more blood on the pavement the better as far as they were concerned. That particular theory is well explored in a very good book - The Founding Myths of Modern Israel. A smooth exit for all jews under German control wouldn't persuade the outside world to give them or realistically, steal land from Palestine.
Thus it was in their interests to make the blood thicker, the pain greater and the suffering worse than any other in history. The PR/propaganda war went into overdrive.
On the subject of ordinary jews incarcerated in camps, they would have been tired, undernourished and scared. Rumours would have spread like wildfire. Nothing they heard subsequently could have changed their minds that all those jews who came in on last night's trains disappeared, when in fact they were shaved, showered and sent to work in the vastness of Auschwitz (40sq kilometers) or sent to other camps to work for the war effort. Many who went through Treblinka were simply expelled into the Russian hinterlands. Some of those died of course.
After the war their suspicions were absolutely supported and reinforced by the stories told at Nuremberg and retold in many a film, news reel, story of a survivor and like all stories they get repeatedly worse and more dire.
Indeed as a fact they never did hear from many or all of their extended families, but this wasn't because they were gassed or died in camps but because they went elsewhere in the world.
It isn't a conspiracy of a faked moon landing, after all that would be out of this world! No it was a set of circumstances that allowed many lying and scheming shysters to claim anything they like without fear of criticism, for that would be an act of evil anti semitism.
Your average Joe Schlomo was not 'in on it' save for the fact that it all made sense to him and being a good jew he couldn't possibly look his fellow jews in the eye in synagogue if he didn't go full metal holocaust and six million at every opportunity.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'
'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician
'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician
Re: Why would they invent this ?
Sweeney wrote:As the opening poster I would just like to say that this subject is such an obstacle course. I've looked on a couple of other sites with opposing views and their arguments are convincing as well. I think it's these minor details that make it so difficult to establish a view. I am beginning to see the holocaust subject with a more critical eye though.
Sweeny, you never replied to my earlier post, so let me try again.
In regards to the so-called "Majdanek holocaust," why is understanding the truth about it "an obstacle course"?
Do you deny that the death toll of the so-called "holocaust" at Majdanek has shrunk from 2 million down to 42,200?
Do you really think that it is "a minor detail" that over 1.9 millions deaths did not happen in one camp alone?
Here is the link again:
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6373&hilit=majdanek+microcosm
Re: Why would they invent this ?
The point Sweeny raises regarding "those other sites"- being "convincing as well" is important.
The very existence of these other sites is specifically to catch those who do not know or those who have been fed a kernal of truth from a revisionist/denier and to deliver to them a seemingly evidence-based believable lie-narrative and thus dissuade them from ever going on the learning the truth.
But the other thing that Sweeney said- that both sets of facts are equally weighted making it hard to decide- is utterly and completely false- and as such I must repeat- Sweeney's manner and alleged confusion is deeply suspicious in my view.
The problem- is that wherever there is a divergence, the revisionist argument renders the exterminationist one not only completely false, but exposes it as a deliberate shill.
If any exterminationist argument on any of these other sites can be shown by Sweeny which he believes are "convincing"- I'd like to see them, because their very exposure is what fortifies the denier position.
And Robert and his like know that. That is why revisionist solutions are censored.
That is why either no comments are allowed on those sites or all comments are filtered by their admins with nothing damning for their thesis at all being allowed. Quite unlike CODOH where the rules are simple. As soon as the rules are egalitarian- no exterminationist argument stands a chance.
The entire basis for these other sites existence is to trip people up before they learn the truth. Holocaust revisionism doesn't work like that though, it's a 1-way street. Once you know you know, and you can never not know again. Therefore it's a forlorn and losing battle.
So I'd ask people like Roberto Muehlenkamp and Andrew Mathis- why would you bother to lie about the inevitable? All your doing is stifling the truth that will inevitably come out and history will record your name as a disgraceful liar, and the revisionist as a visionary instead. Would you not rather a favourable history recording, rather than make a buck off the disgraceful H-myth industry? This applies actually to all exterminationist elite.
All professors like Green, Van Pelt, Reece, Pressac, Hilberg, Shermer, Berenbaum etc and top exterminationist enforcers like Roberto and Mathis etc- are "holocaust deniers" as well. The only difference is that they are running a business.
The very existence of these other sites is specifically to catch those who do not know or those who have been fed a kernal of truth from a revisionist/denier and to deliver to them a seemingly evidence-based believable lie-narrative and thus dissuade them from ever going on the learning the truth.
But the other thing that Sweeney said- that both sets of facts are equally weighted making it hard to decide- is utterly and completely false- and as such I must repeat- Sweeney's manner and alleged confusion is deeply suspicious in my view.
The problem- is that wherever there is a divergence, the revisionist argument renders the exterminationist one not only completely false, but exposes it as a deliberate shill.
If any exterminationist argument on any of these other sites can be shown by Sweeny which he believes are "convincing"- I'd like to see them, because their very exposure is what fortifies the denier position.
And Robert and his like know that. That is why revisionist solutions are censored.
That is why either no comments are allowed on those sites or all comments are filtered by their admins with nothing damning for their thesis at all being allowed. Quite unlike CODOH where the rules are simple. As soon as the rules are egalitarian- no exterminationist argument stands a chance.
The entire basis for these other sites existence is to trip people up before they learn the truth. Holocaust revisionism doesn't work like that though, it's a 1-way street. Once you know you know, and you can never not know again. Therefore it's a forlorn and losing battle.
So I'd ask people like Roberto Muehlenkamp and Andrew Mathis- why would you bother to lie about the inevitable? All your doing is stifling the truth that will inevitably come out and history will record your name as a disgraceful liar, and the revisionist as a visionary instead. Would you not rather a favourable history recording, rather than make a buck off the disgraceful H-myth industry? This applies actually to all exterminationist elite.
All professors like Green, Van Pelt, Reece, Pressac, Hilberg, Shermer, Berenbaum etc and top exterminationist enforcers like Roberto and Mathis etc- are "holocaust deniers" as well. The only difference is that they are running a business.
Re: Why would they invent this ?
Posted twice by accident so deleted one and then the other disappeared. I'll post again later.
Last edited by Sweeney on Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Why would they invent this ?
Sweeney wrote:Posted twice by accident so deleted one and then the other disappeared. I'll post again later.
Indeed, I deleted one, while you scrubbed the other.
Yikes.
Please re-post.
Thanks, M1
Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.
Re: Why would they invent this ?
borjastick wrote:Hi Sweeney
I have just re-read your original post and wonder if you mean something rather different to what I thought.
You seem to perhaps mean that if it is real no one would question it and if it is made up how did so many people get in on the scheme?
Take the moon landings, which have long been the subject of conspiracy theorists. The general doubt about it being a conspiracy is that if it was a fake moon landing how did so many people join in and then keep the secret for so many decades? But that would suggest that at the outset a group of people, perhaps from the White House down, decided to scheme and fake the whole thing.
The holocaust is a completely different set of circumstances.
....
I recall people that equate "Holocaust Denial" to a "conspiracy theory". It's a pretty silly argument, if you reflect on this. But it is persuasive to many, due to the power of words being used.
They try to support their argument by stating that "if the Holocaust was a lie, someone would have come forward and tell the world that all has been made up".
The problem is that Holocaust is actually sold as a package deal, including:
1. National Socialist Policies regarding Jews
2. Forcing Jews to live in Ghettos and under curfews
3. Deportation and resettlement
4. Internment in concentration camps
5. Forced Labor and expropriation (certain valuables were generally confiscated at the time e.g. precious metals)
6. Mortality of camp inmates due to diseases and malnourishment
7. Measures against Communist and Partisans as well as their aides including executions and reprisals
8. An extermination program including the use of homicidal gas chambers run with Zyklon B and Diesel/Fuel Exhaust gasses
Exterminationists will subscribe to all those points and portray it as a kind of slippery slope.
Revisionists will agree with most points, except with no. 8 and perhaps debate context, motivation, causes or extent of the other points. That makes the later also a subject to interpretation. So there is agreement on large portions of the narrative, but it is deceptive to sell it as a package deal. When a lot of the circumstantial parts of the narrative are true and people heard rumors of whose validity they are uncertain, then it's no surprise that one would never hear of anybody disputing the narrative in total. What is however common is that contemporary witnesses will state that they didn't know anything about point 8 and perhaps point 7 and to a lesser degree didn't know about the others. Bear in mind that there is a large segment in society that is apolitical or simply ignorant about anything that happens outside their private sphere. On the other hand there is those that are well informed about events and some due to the simple fact that they are higher ups in the government. Remarkably they also disputed knowledge of any extermination program, until this was rubbed under their knows by their Allied captors.
What should not be forgotten is the role of war propaganda, polarization, rumors and psychological warfare. Something orthodox Holocaustians simply try to ignore or brush off.
A parade example of disparaging a figure was the one of Dr. Mengele:
https://archive.org/details/TheTruthAboutDrJosefMengele
They turned a enthusiastic medical practitioner into a caricature from a horror movie.
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