Did Ante Pavelic and the Croatian Ustasha regime commit a Genocide against Jews and Serbs?

[sfivdf21]

Hello everyone, today I would like to open a debate about a topic in that I have recently been very interested and which at the same time I know little information (and practically none information from a Revisionist point of view). The topic is about the Croatian statesman Ante Pavelic, his Fascist, Catholic and Nationalist movement, the Ustasha) and the Independent State of Croatia (NDH in its Croatian acronym). Especially the issue related to the alleged genocide that is claimed to have been committed by the Ustashas against Serbs, Gypsies and Jews. When I have searched for information about it, I have often come across sensationalist and dubiously credible articles with titles such as "The Ustashas, ​​the monsters that horrified even the Nazis" or "Ante Pavelic, the bloodthirsty dictator who surpassed Adolf Hitler in cruelty." Although I am not an expert on Ante Pavelic, the Ustashas and the NDH and my knowledge about them is very little, considering that those who claim that the Croatian Ustashas committed genocide against the Serbs, Gypsies and Jews are the same people who claim that the German Nationalsocialists "murdered" "6 million" Jews (which, as we know is a lie and anti-German propaganda) I have my serious suspicions and it led me to think that Ante Pavelic and his Ustasha regime did not commit any genocide against Serbs, Gypsies and Jews. However, I want to base my conclusions on factual facts, not on conjectures or personal interpretations, that is why I have decided to open this thread, because as I also said before I have found very little information about the NDH from a Revisionist point of view (the only thing I have been able to find is an Inconvenient History article exposing the myths of the Jasenovac concentration camp, but no information about the NDH and the actions of the Ustashas and the Poglavnik as a whole). To summarize, the current narrative about the Ustashas is that they were an ultra-Catholic, Racist and Fascist terrorist organization that seized to power imposed by the Germans and Italians in April 1941 after the defeat of Yugolavia and that under the leadership of Ante Pavelic they ruled Croatia as a puppet state of the Germans and Italians with an iron fist and that in addition to a devastated economy and a totally impoverished Croatia, the Ustashas imposed a reign of terror in which they wanted to physically exterminate the Jewish, Serbian and Gypsy population in the country and whose atrocities horrified even their Germans allies (that is something that is often emphasized a lot and it strikes me, allegedly the Nationalsocialist leaders themselves condemned the alleged Croatian atrocities). All that story seems to me as I have said enough, quite implausible. And if someone could give me detailed and objective information about the Poglavnik and the NDH I would really appreciate it. And finally another thing that out of curiosity I would like to know, what is the perception in the current Croatia about the NDH era, the Ustasha movement and their Poglavnik? Did the NDH have popular support among the Croatian people or was it a puppet state imposed by Italy and Germany as the official account claims? Is Ante Pavelic considered a national hero or a tyrant? Is the Ustasha considered a heroic patriotic movement or a bunch of criminals? Does the account of Jasenovac and other alleged Ustasha atrocities enjoy support among Croats or is it dismissed as anti-Ustasha and anti-Croatian propaganda? If there is any user who is Croatian I would like that to answer that thread and explain more about the subject, greetings.

[cold beer]

Did Ante Pavelik identify as a fascist or are they just hanging that label on him?

[sfivdf21]

Did Ante Pavelik identify as a fascist or are they just hanging that label on him?

Hello cold beer, thanks for your reply. As I understand it, Ante Pavelic and the rest of the Ustasha leaders were exiled in Italy and directly protected by Mussolini during the 1930s when they were severely persecuted by the Yugoslav authorities. Also from what I have read the Ustasha movement was inspired and influenced by Fascism, it has all the characteristics of a Fascist movement: Revolutionary Nationalism, anti-Capitalism, anti-Communism, defense of traditional values ​​and the national culture of the country, paramilitarism (the Ustasha militias wore black shirts like the Italian Fascists), strong and authoritarian popular leader who is made a cult of personality (Ante Pavelic was called the Poglavnik, equivalent to the title of Duce for Benito Mussolini, Führer for Adolf Hitler or Caudillo for Francisco Franco ), etc. In addition, the Ustashas came to power in Croatia with the help of the Italian Fascists and the German Nationalsocialists and the Independent State of Croatia was a member of the Axis powers. Even being an expert on the Ustashas (as I said precisely for that reason I decided to open that thread, to learn more about it and what is true and false in the atrocities attributed to them), I believe that their connection with Fascism is obvious. Anyway, when I said that the Ustasha are a Fascist movement, I did not mean it in a negative or pejorative sense (as unfortunately so much is used today, the same happens with the term "Nazi", "Fascist" and "Nazi" are words that have been emptied of their real meaning and that today are used as an insult in the stupid and uneducated society in which we live).

[Vukdar]

Did Ante Pavelik identify as a fascist or are they just hanging that label on him?

Hello cold beer, thanks for your reply. As I understand it, Ante Pavelic and the rest of the Ustasha leaders were exiled in Italy and directly protected by Mussolini during the 1930s when they were severely persecuted by the Yugoslav authorities. Also from what I have read the Ustasha movement was inspired and influenced by Fascism, it has all the characteristics of a Fascist movement: Revolutionary Nationalism, anti-Capitalism, anti-Communism, defense of traditional values ​​and the national culture of the country, paramilitarism (the Ustasha militias wore black shirts like the Italian Fascists), strong and authoritarian popular leader who is made a cult of personality (Ante Pavelic was called the Poglavnik, equivalent to the title of Duce for Benito Mussolini, Führer for Adolf Hitler or Caudillo for Francisco Franco ), etc. In addition, the Ustashas came to power in Croatia with the help of the Italian Fascists and the German Nationalsocialists and the Independent State of Croatia was a member of the Axis powers. Even being an expert on the Ustashas (as I said precisely for that reason I decided to open that thread, to learn more about it and what is true and false in the atrocities attributed to them), I believe that their connection with Fascism is obvious. Anyway, when I said that the Ustasha are a Fascist movement, I did not mean it in a negative or pejorative sense (as unfortunately so much is used today, the same happens with the term "Nazi", "Fascist" and "Nazi" are words that have been emptied of their real meaning and that today are used as an insult in the stupid and uneducated society in which we live).

Lots of questions. Country is divided about this, but there is propaganda that is mainstream where they try to push this story that you described here. Very similar to propaganda about Hitler and the Nazis.

If you want to see honest research about concentration camp Jasenovac (where alleged 80.000 people got killed) you need to google Igor Vukić. This man spent his life in archives and has a facebook profile where he shows us documents from this period. Also, he has no axe to grind because he is Serb actually, and some of his distant family members were in the camp.

[sfivdf21]

Did Ante Pavelik identify as a fascist or are they just hanging that label on him?

Hello cold beer, thanks for your reply. As I understand it, Ante Pavelic and the rest of the Ustasha leaders were exiled in Italy and directly protected by Mussolini during the 1930s when they were severely persecuted by the Yugoslav authorities. Also from what I have read the Ustasha movement was inspired and influenced by Fascism, it has all the characteristics of a Fascist movement: Revolutionary Nationalism, anti-Capitalism, anti-Communism, defense of traditional values ​​and the national culture of the country, paramilitarism (the Ustasha militias wore black shirts like the Italian Fascists), strong and authoritarian popular leader who is made a cult of personality (Ante Pavelic was called the Poglavnik, equivalent to the title of Duce for Benito Mussolini, Führer for Adolf Hitler or Caudillo for Francisco Franco ), etc. In addition, the Ustashas came to power in Croatia with the help of the Italian Fascists and the German Nationalsocialists and the Independent State of Croatia was a member of the Axis powers. Even being an expert on the Ustashas (as I said precisely for that reason I decided to open that thread, to learn more about it and what is true and false in the atrocities attributed to them), I believe that their connection with Fascism is obvious. Anyway, when I said that the Ustasha are a Fascist movement, I did not mean it in a negative or pejorative sense (as unfortunately so much is used today, the same happens with the term "Nazi", "Fascist" and "Nazi" are words that have been emptied of their real meaning and that today are used as an insult in the stupid and uneducated society in which we live).

Lots of questions. Country is divided about this, but there is propaganda that is mainstream where they try to push this story that you described here. Very similar to propaganda about Hitler and the Nazis.

If you want to see honest research about concentration camp Jasenovac (where alleged 80.000 people got killed) you need to google Igor Vukić. This man spent his life in archives and has a facebook profile where he shows us documents from this period. Also, he has no axe to grind because he is Serb actually, and some of his distant family members were in the camp.

Hello Vudkar, thanks for your reply and for your information. Very interesting the information about Igor Vukić, I'll look for his work about the Jasenovac issue, until now I didn't know any NDH revisionist historian.

As I understand it, in your reply you state that the current Croatian society is divided around anti-Ustasha propaganda but that, like the case in the current occupied Germany, the authorities have imposed the anti-Ustasha narrative on the media and the educational system. It does not surprise me, taking into account that at the present day all of Europe is enslaved under the Jewish yoke and that Croatia was during the Second World War a member of the Axis powers and a loyal ally of Germany, for this reason it's understandable that the current political establishment wants to impose a very negative vision of the Independent State of Croatia.

Now, what interests me most about this topic from a sociological point of view is not what the current political establishment of Croatia think, but Croatian society think. The opinions of the political authorities (especially if they are sepoy authorities who don't serve the interests of their nation) do not always reflect what the majority of the population of the country that they govern really thinks. Making the comparison with Germany, just recently I also opened a thread to open a debate about what the majority of Germans really think and if they really believe in the version of Adolf Hitler, the Third Reich, the Second World War and the "Holocaust" that the authorities of the puppet regime of the FRG have imposed on them, I leave you in link of the thread here in case you are interested.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14059

Returning to the topic of the current Croatian society's opinions about the recent past of your country, I would like to know what is your opinion about everything related to the Independent State of Croatia and its Poglavnik, in your brief reply you have only told me that the country it's divided (so I guess there are Croats who have a good opinion of the NDH and others who don't). Do most or many Croatians consider Ante Pavelic a national hero or a genocide? Does pro-Ustasha sentiment or anti-Ustasha sentiment have more popular support in the current Croatian society? Do the majority of Croatian elders remember the NDH positively or negatively? Are all the alleged crimes that Pavelic and the Ustasha are accused of (not just the Jasenovac affair, the Ustasha allegedly commited many more "war crimes" and "genocides") are greeted by most Croats with skepticism or do they believe that Does the anti-Ustacha version fit the historical reality? ¿How strong is the pro-Ustasha sentiment and the NDH revisionism in the current Croatia?

Sorry for my insistence but this whole issue of the NDH in particular and the Second World War in the Balkans in general seems very interesting to me, at the same time that it has not been seriously studied and in my country there is no information about it beyond the headlines of tabloid press of dubious credibility and of course the Wikipedia. That is, no information that should be taken seriously.
Thanks in advance, greetings.

[Vukdar]

My grandfather joined Ustaša's when he was 18 years old, but through strange events ended up in Wehrmacht. On top of that he was captured by Americans in Berlin. Survived the war. So, my poisition is that they were legitimate Croatian army fighting for independent state. I see no difference between them back in the 1940. and Croatian army in 1991. war for independence. I don't think it was puppet state. It is just that they had Germans as allies. It is allowed to have allies.

The problem I see with it is that it was too big for us. Border on river Drina, I mean we would end up with 2 million Serbs in this new state, and almost as many muslims. It would fall apart from the inside. Also, at some point there would be war with Italy to get back our islands that they occupied.

In public people will often say negative stuff about Pavelić, but I feel like privately many think positive. It is hard to answer this question about sentiment of the people since I can't know what people really think. But as we speak there is huge controversy about hip-hop band and new album they made where they spit rhymes about Jasenovac being a myth. Band name is Tram 11. In facebook comments people fight about it. I think it will be best selling album.

Revisionism is getting stronger, and next to Igor Vukić you have Roman Ljeljak. A Slovenian. He is not even Croat. I think it is good that way. Only trouble I have with it is that I think they somewhat believe general Holocaust story about Germany. Or they pretend like they believe so they don't get cancelled.

Here is one video from that period so you can see how it looked.
https://youtu.be/vsQ5amMkt4E

Croatian Legion in Stalingrad.
https://youtu.be/bVbqdD6CmOI

And check on facebook page: Revisiting NDH.
There you have amazing pictures, documents, testimonies, etc.