Crushing millions of bones and teeth by pestles

[The Warden]

So in addition to the bone (fragments or grounds), there still must be ash from the fuel source.
Plus, there must be some sort of residue that gathers on the inside of the chimneys as the air cools.

This all had to go somewhere.

[ovd1965]

yes of course , see my estimate on saturday , jan. 08 in this thread ..... very very much material to handle !

[Anders]

J N

One reads everywhere, also in this thread, that the Germans used the burnt bones of their victims as fertilizer.

No JN, one reads everywhere that the Germans buried the burnt bones of their alleged victims in "huge mass graves."

...consider the following from Yitzhak Arad’s deluding book - BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA - (chapter 23) - The Erasure of the Crimes: “The camp command was confronted with the problem of disposing of the large piles of ash and bits of bone that remained… Ultimately it was decided to dump the ash and bits of bone into the ditches that had previously held the bodies and to cover them with a thick layer of sand and dirt… [Eyewitness] Abraham Goldfarb relates: …’we secretly placed in the walls of the graves whole skeletons and we wrote on scraps of paper what the Germans were doing at Treblinka. We put the scraps of paper into bottles, which we placed next to the skeletons. Our intention was that if one day someone looked for traces, they could indeed be found.’”

So JN is tacitly refuting the claims that graves have been found at Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka.

It that correct JN? What is your story - reinterred into the same 'huge mass graves" or used as fertilzer?

(My guess is he will refuse to answer the question)


T W

Once the body is cremated, the 4 or 6 pounds (est.) of remains (after the 1 1/2 to 2 hours of burning) consists of bone fragments only?

The remains of the cremated body are then swept from the oven. Larger bone fragments are still identifiable as Kraus is shown holding a part of the hip bone.

http://www.pointssouth.net/archives/art ... efault.htm

The time for cremation to be completed varies with the size and weight of each human remains, but usually takes between 1 1/2 and 3 hours.

Following a cooling period, the cremated remains are then swept or raked from the cremation chamber. Every effort is made to remove all human remains. However, a small residue my remain in the cremation chamber, resulting in incidental commingling with other cremated remains.

After the cremated remains are removed from the cremation chamber, all non-combustible materials that have not been removed prior to cremation will be separated and removed from the bone fragments by visible or magnetic selection and will be disposed of by the crematory in a non-recoverable manner.

Once the bone fragments have been separated from the other material, they may be further processed to reduce the size of the bone fragments to uniform particles.

Cremated remains, depending on the bone structure of the decedent, will weigh between three and nine pounds, and are usually white in color, but can be other colors due to temperature variations and other factors.

http://www.funeralplan.com/funeralplan/ ... ssing.html

[Anders]

Holocaust historians must discover evidence of the vast Treblinka burial pits

Pits enormous enough to have held close to 870,000 bodies would be detectable to this day. The composition and density and layering of the earth where the pits had been would differ from that of the surrounding land which had never been dug up. The fill lying deep inside such pits would contain things that would normally be found only at the surface — grass, sticks, insects, seeds, pollen. Experts can extract core samples from the Treblinka lands, and from these can make definitive statements as to the location and the dimensions of any pits that had been excavated.

Also, for a long time after the pits had been filled, they would settle. To this day, there might exist depressions where the pits had been. These depressions might be visible as shadows when viewed from the air at dawn or at dusk, and these shadows could be photographed.

Thus, it must be possible today to obtain definitive evidence as to the existence and the dimensions of the burial pits, and from these dimensions to evaluate the claim of 870,000 victims at Treblinka.

Holocaust historians must discover evidence of the 870,000 Treblinka bodies

Some bodies might still remain in Treblinka. However difficult it must have been to bury 870,000 bodies, to disinter and remove every last one of them must have been close to impossible, and so a number of these bodies might still remain in these pits today, probably at the very bottom of them. There are several reasons why removing every last body would have been difficult. First, the pits would have tended to fill with water. Second, whereas gravity alone could have carried the bodies to the bottom of the pit in the first place, gravity would later fight against their removal, and so the mechanics of raising bodies from the bottom of a deep pit would have militated against a complete pit evacuation. Third, the bodies would have decomposed, making the work of removing them both physically difficult and psychologically revolting. Fourth, the deeper that the diggers progressed, the less convinced would they have been that going still deeper was indispensible — in view of manpower and machine shortages toward the end of the war, in view of the difficulty and the repugnance of digging up the bodies, in view of the pit filling with water — how easy it would have been to decide that bodies lying below whatever extreme depth had been reached so far would never be discovered, and to just begin filling the pit with earth. Actually, as the disinterred bodies were being burned, a mountain of ash and charred bone would have begun to accumulate, and the temptation to begin disposing of this ash and charred bone into the pits — even though every last body had not as yet been removed from them — would have grown. Or perhaps some smaller pit was forgotten and never disinterred at all. Or, perhaps some branch of a pit, or some depression within a pit, was overlooked and still contains bodies to this day.

Body parts, or evidence of bodies, might still remain in Treblinka. But even if we accept the implausible conclusion that every last one of 870,000 or so bodies was removed from the pits — still, bodies leave traces. There might still be body parts buried deep underneath the soil. There might be hair. There might be bone or tooth fragments, or bullets, or shell casings resulting from the shootings that sometimes took place at the edges of the pits. There might still remain soil changes from the blood or from bodily fluids that soaked the bottom of these pits.

Thus, the Treblinka burial pits must be located and measured and excavated. If 870,000 bodies once lay in them, the bodies will have left their indelible traces.

Holocaust historians must discover evidence of the incompletely-burned remains of 870,000 Treblinka bodies

Here is some of your testimony outlining the burning of the 870,000 Treblinka bodies:

LEVIN: The crematoria, were they buildings, or what?

ARAD: The crematoria were like open grills, like an enormous bonfire, on which the corpses were built, but this was after February and March 1943. Until then they were buried in the enormous ditches that I mentioned. (Morning Session 17Feb87, p. 247)

ARAD: [...] it was in August, it was in summer, the Jewish prisoners at the time were busy burning the corpses and the work started at four in the morning and came to a close at midday, first and foremost so that the Germans who were supervising them would not have to be exposed to burning midday sun. (Afternoon Session, 17Feb87, pp. 287-288)

ARAD: Now, Himmler had a different idea about the blurring and obliterating of traces and messages. Already in the spring of 1942 when the first withdrawals of the German troops on the eastern fron took place, and certain regions of the Soviet Union were liberated, and the atrocities performed by the Germans became evident, the atrocities performed on Jews mainly, but also on the local population — when this became known and public knowledge, Himmler instituted a special unit under Sturmbandfuehrer S.S. Globl whose job it was to open up all thepits, all these hundreds of thousands of corpses of Jews who, whether it was at Babi Yar, whether it was in Kiev, whether it was in Riga or whether it was in Vilna, open upall these mass graves and burn the corpses.

He further instructed that also in the extermination camps all corpses henceforth were to be incinerated.

And when he found out that Treblinka and Belzec and Sobibor this practice was already instituted earlier. In Treblinka, when in February he found out this had not yet been instituted, he instructed the commander — it was Floss — a German — Fluss put in charge of the incinerating of the corpses. I would say that at the time of the liquidation of the camp was dependent on the incineration of the corpses there. For at the time of Himmler's visits, in February 1943, already knew that Operation Reinhardt had in fact come to an end, and Auschwitz-Birkenau was taking over with its four huge crematoria and there was in fact no longer any need for these three camps.

And in spring of 1943 instructed the commanders to start closing down these camps, but this was contingent upon the all corpses being incinerated and burned. (Morning Session, 17Feb87, pp. 266-267)

The residue of burning must be found. Burning 870,000 bodies creates a mountain of ash from the wood and a mountain of unburned bone from the bodies. In a real crematorium where high temperatures can be produced for the necessary duration, each cadaver leaves behind some three to nine pounds of bone. An open-air fire will not achieve the same high temperatures as a crematorium, and so in the same interval of time, and even in a longer interval of time, will leave behind a great deal more residue. If we assume a very conservative, and mathematically convenient, ten pounds of unburned residue per Treblinka victim, then that yields a total of 8.7 million pounds of residue, which equals 3.9 million kilograms. That is a lot of residue. Where could the Nazis have put it all? Saying that they "scattered" it, as you do say, is not adequate — how does one "scatter" 8.7 million pounds of unburned bone? Is it conceivable that 8.7 million pounds of charred bone could remain hidden today from investigators who tried to find it? As the most convenient location to dispose of the residue would have been the bottoms of the freshly-emptied burial pits, the 8.7 million pounds of charred bone might still exist in Treblinka, and thus could testify to the 870,000 Jews killed there.

An outdoor fire must not be called a crematorium. To call open-air burning cremation invites the conclusion that there is no appreciable difference between high-temperature cremation in a furnace and lower-temperature burning in the open air, and invites the conclusion also that the residue will be comparable in each case. But because the temperature is lower in open-air burning, and because the residue is greater, I tend to avoid calling open-air burning "cremation" and I protest vigorously against calling an open-air fire a "crematorium."

Evidence must be found of the fuel used in burning. To burn 870,000 bodies in the open air would require a vast amount of fuel. If it takes a boxcar full of wood to reduce 100 bodies to ash in open-air fires, then 8,700 boxcars of wood would have been required. Or if 100 bodies require not just one boxcar of wood, but two or three, then the total number of boxcars of wood required would rise from 8,700 to 17,400 or 25,100, and the possibility that so much wood had been cut and shipped without it leaving a trace within documents or within human memory approaches the incredible. Wood freshly cut, furthermore, contains much water, and burns inefficiently while producing much smoke. Thus, as Himmler's decision to burn the bodies was implemented rapidly, we must conclude either that the Nazis had been maintaining a stockpile of seasoned wood equivalent in volume to thousands or tens of thousands of boxcars, or else that they suddenly conscripted armies of woodcutters to denude entire forests, and quickly burned the wood while it was still green.

The burning of bodies accomplishes nothing. What is gained by the burning of 870,000 bodies? Such a burning amounts to replacing an enormous volume of bodies with a somewhat less enormous volume of ash and charred bone from the incomplete combustion of the bodies, but where the ash and bone are as fully inculpatory as were the bodies themselves. Your story of the burning of Treblinka bodies is based on the premise that Himmler labored under the delusion that the discovery of a body could lead to a murder charge, whereas the discovery of ten pounds of human bone could not.

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=3166

[Anders]

So joachim neander is tacitly refuting the claims that graves have been found at Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka.

It that correct joachim neander?

What is your story - reinterred into the same 'huge mass graves" or used as fertilzer?

(My guess is he will refuse to answer the question)

Looks likw my guess was correct. But I would like to ask my question again just in case joachim neander missed it.


joachim neander, which of the two fraudulent claims are you espousing - reinterred into the same 'huge mass graves" or used as fertilzer?

[Atigun]

Anders,

Yankel Wiernick's explanation of the problem of cremation fuel at Treblinka was a work detail of Jews went into the forest each morning and gathered 'brushwood' to begin the cremation process. After an initial ignition, Jewish corpses would, if properly arranged upon the grill, continue burning with no further addition of fuel. On a different forum, Roberto Muehlenkamp explained that such a process was made possible by the flammable gasses produced by a decaying corpse. IIRC, Wiernick said that there were five graves, measuring 25 meters by 50 meters by 10 meters deep. Well, its been a while since I've read 'A Year In Treblinka' or anything by Roberto. His style of debating/writing quickly becomes tiresome.

[Anders]

Atigun2, how is it that you could be unaware that both Wiernick and Muehlenkamp are mentally and emotionally unstable, pathological liars? Their so-called "explanations" did not "explain" what happened; they both told absurd lies about something that didn't happen. So your point about retelling the lies of these mentlaly ill pathological liars is?

Atigun2

Wiernick said that there were five graves, measuring 25 meters by 50 meters by 10 meters deep.

And isn't the official story that there are the remains of 870,000 people buried in those 5 graves Atigun2?

So then Atigun2, the remains of how many people are buried in each grave?

And how many pounds of bones and how many teeth would be in each grave Atigun2?

[Atigun]

But...But...Anders, are you saying that you doubt the veracity of Yankel and Roberto? How can this be? Yankel said that the evil Germans forced him and some other jews to run, non stop from daylight to dark carrying corpses from the gas chamber to the burial pits, all without a drop of water to drink, a bite to eat and all the while being beaten with rifle butts and iron rods. You can doubt such a claim?

My apologies my friend, I suppose that I should have used a sarcasm smiley or something. I sometimes forget that there are indeed, still people who are unaware of the utter absurdity of many of the holohoax claims and I fall into the trap of assuming that my views are generally known. I like many of the claims made in "A Year In Treblinka" due to their absolute impossibility. In the corpse carrying claim, let's assume a 12 hour time frame for 'daylight to dark'. A brisk walk will accomplish four miles per hour so even a jog, let alone running should accomplish five miles per hour. So, we can assume that Yankel ran a minimum distance of 60 miles per day, somewhat more than two marathons per day, all while carrying up to 150 pounds, the weight of a corpse for half of that distance. Not bad for a middle aged sedentary man with no athletic training. Let us not forget that the rifles of that era were designed to be a weapon in their own right even without ammunition. I trained with the last of the old style battle rifles (giving away my age here) the butt plates were made of steel and properly used are a lethal weapon. A properly administered 'butt stroke' will result in serious injury or worse. Spending twelve hours a day being beaten with rifle butts...

As far as Roberto--I've followed some of his posts here at CODOH before he was 86'd and on other forums. As you pointed out, Anders, he is bizarre if not actually un-balanced. Also, I'm not actually a 'newbie' at CODOH. I was offline for several years so when I came back online I had to re-register, hence the 'Atigun2' rather than just plain Atigun.