Green, Mathis refuted / cyanide: lice, humans, & more

[code yellow]

To aemathisphd:I still can't agree because of eyewitness accounts of the actual process of said alleged gassings.First of all,eyewitness acounts gave demensions of a room that was,if not too small for the amount of people said to be gassed at one time,would have been too tight on the inside to do much scrambling around for a door.Also,eyewitness accounts of the amount of people ellegedly gassed in a day(20,000?40,000?),would also make it implausible in my view,for the Zyklon B to work efficiently, as the amount of people being ellegedly gassed in a day,according to eyewitness accounts, would probably exceed the rediculous amount of people said to fit in the elleged gas chambers at one time ,also proposed by eyewitness accounts.The two versions,the amount of people put into the gas chamber at one time and the amount of people gassed in a day, contradict eachother

[aemathisphd]

To aemathisphd:I still can't agree because of eyewitness accounts of the actual process of said alleged gassings.First of all,eyewitness acounts gave demensions of a room that was,if not too small for the amount of people said to be gassed at one time,would have been too tight on the inside to do much scrambling around for a door.Also,eyewitness accounts of the amount of people ellegedly gassed in a day(20,000?40,000?),would also make it implausible in my view,for the Zyklon B to work efficiently, as the amount of people being ellegedly gassed in a day,according to eyewitness accounts, would probably exceed the rediculous amount of people said to fit in the elleged gas chambers at one time ,also proposed by eyewitness accounts.The two versions,the amount of people put into the gas chamber at one time and the amount of people gassed in a day, contradict eachother

No credible figure has ever claimed that 20,000 or 40,000 people were gassed in a day.

Höss claimed during the Hungarian Aktion that 12,000 were being "processed" a day. This was with five gas chambers and 52 crematory muffles, but still they had to resort to pit burnings.

That's the highest claim I've ever heard, and it strikes me as specious also.

a.m.

[aemathisphd]

Mathis said:

....But the fact is that the 1990 Cracow IFR report affirms enough cyanide on the walls of Krema II even after 45 years of exposure to corroborate homocidal gassing in that room.

Incorrect, The 'report' has been thoroughly refuted by Chemist, Germar Rudolf, in 'Critique of Claims Made by Robert Jan Van Pelt'.

the pertinent text:

http://www.vho.org/GB/c/GR/RudolfOnVanPelt.html#

Pardon me if I happen to be unimpressed. Green, in his report, makes it rather clear that the Cracow IFR report is reliable.

So we have Green on one hand and Rudolf on the other. You guys believe Rudolf, and I believe Green.

This is a position called loggerheads.

None of us are physical chemists (as far as I know), whereas both Green and Rudolf are. Green particularly has worked on a U.S. government grant project of defending against cyanide attacks as chemical warfare. So he has some practical experience in the area of cyanide gas used for homocide. (By the way, his Ph.D. is from Stanford University, which I think we Americans here can testify is one of the nation's top universities.)

As for Rudolf, as mentioned before, Irving saw fit to withdraw his affidavit from his application for leave for appeal in Irving v. Lipstadt after Green filed his, which doesn't say much for Irving's trust in Rudolf's work.

So I'm going to exit this thread at this point, since there's no real point arguing beyond this. You can, of course, respond further if you like.

See y'all in another thread, and thanks for having me back.

a.m.

[Hannover]

Mathis said:

No credible figure has ever claimed that 20,000 or 40,000 people were gassed in a day.

Yet frequently cited and praised 'eyewitness' Primo Levi stated:

"The horrendous record belongs to Auschwitz, with ***24,000 dead in a single day***, in August 1944."
Survival in Auschwitz....', Summit Books, 1986, p.388

- Hannover

[Turpitz]

So we have Green on one hand and Rudolf on the other. You guys believe Rudolf, and I believe Green.

This is a position called loggerheads.

But stepping down off the Theory chariot, which races round and round and round, the never ending solar of Bureaucracy, and puts us back on the cold plane of practice. An independently minded person would have to take Rudolf's opinion, for no other reason than Rudolf's calculations would leave no physical evidence, which there isn't. And Green's theory should leave masses of physical evidence, which there isn't !

[code yellow]

I don't know if you would consider this credible, but a web site called David Hawkins site and homepage posted an article about Rosa Robota, the Jewish holocaust heroine (which they refer to her as). At one point of the mini-bio on Rosa, it states:

"With Himmler's orders to step up the pace of the gassings in the summer of 1944,the rate that people being annihilated each day was astronomical: 46,000 IN A 24 HOUR PERIOD on July 24 (the record for any of the camps)."

If the holocaust gas chambers are so true, why add the endless mountain of obvious lies to it? The protectors of the alleged holocaust are only damaging their own self interest.

[Hannover]

Mathis, before he bailed said:

Pardon me if I happen to be unimpressed. Green, in his report, makes it rather clear that the Cracow IFR report is reliable.

So we have Green on one hand and Rudolf on the other. You guys believe Rudolf, and I believe Green.

Rudolf utterly demolishes the Cracow report, says & shows exactly why it's a piece of intentionally fraudulent nonsense. Rudolf and those here have demonstrated the absurdity of characters like Green, whereas Believers cannot demonstrate anything of the sort in regards to Rudolf. It's simply real science vs. 'holocau$t' science; and real science always wins.

Wherever this Green character got his degree, he's in over his head.....as has been demonstrated. BTW, Rudolf is a master Chemist from the Max Plankt Institute.

Mathis also said, as if it can help his case:

As for Rudolf, as mentioned before, Irving saw fit to withdraw his affidavit from his application for leave for appeal in Irving v. Lipstadt after Green filed his, which doesn't say much for Irving's trust in Rudolf's work.

So what? Irving simply is not the least bit technically minded and chose not to argue points he didn't understand. Irving has written no books on the so called 'holocau$t' and does not claim to be well versed in the story.
It's a strawman to present Irving as if he is the #1 'holocaust' Revisionist.

Retain this thread, it's a Revisionist winner.

- Hannover

[Hannover]

Another indicator of the fraudulence of these claims is the alleged 'wire mesh insertion devices' said to have been used to deposit the Zyklon-B; they supposedly extended into the 'gas chambers'.

Big problem for the 'holocaust' story; these alleged devices would have drastically slowed the cyanide release time. Hence they would have increased the amount of time required to kill a large number of people in a large space.

But yet, 'eyewitnesses' said that everyone was killed in ca. 5 minutes; utterly impossible.
see:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=309

The 'holocau$t' Industry has met the enemy, it is their own lies.

- Hannover

[Hannover]

Mathis said:

This is one reason why Zyklon-B without indicator was requisitioned for Auschwitz. It put off the amount of time before panic set in -- otherwise it would set in the moment they smelled the indicator.

Incorrect.

There is no evidence that the option existed to order anything but the odorless Zyklon-B once it came into production. There are no orders indicating a choice.

By 1944 Zyklon was being supplied to Auschwitz without the warning ingredient, but the reason for this exceptional practice was a supply shortage rather than any desire, as alleged by Exterminationists, to deceive potential murder victims. One cause of considerable concern to some of the German technicians at the time was that since the warning ingredient also contributed to the chemical stability of the Zyklon-B, its removal could present a serious hazard to the end-user. One result of the removal of the warning ingredient seems to have been the shortening of the shelf-life of even properly sealed cans of Zyklon-B.
- footnote 7
http://vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/7/1/Berg73-94.html

The removal of the warning scent was decided upon by the DEGESCH manufacturers and not by the SS. This came out during testimony given by Mr. Breitweiser during the course of the Auschwitz Frankfurt trial in 1961. Breitweiser was in charge of disinfestation at Auschwitz. He was never charged with or convicted of a crime.

- Hannover

[Hannover]

Mathis said:

This was with five gas chambers and 52 crematory muffles, but still they had to resort to pit burnings.

Wrong.
The total 52 muffles of Auschwitz were **never used simultaneously.**

The six at Auschwitz I were taken out of action as soon as the new ones at Birkenau entered it. These were in turn liable to long periods of breakdowns and even idleness.

Assuming for the moment a program of mass-extermination, the desperate need for cremation capacity is obvious (as the absurd tales of the burning-pits clearly show).

Why then put six muffles out of action?

Why use exactly the same incineration techniques as in normal concentration camps, installing coke-fired ovens, even by the thirties a crude and primitive solution?

More efficient gas-fired and electrical crematoria had by this time already been used. The SS would have sought out the most efficient answer they were able to find, if the story was true. Why then not build the installations required? It doesn't make sense, that is obvious.

- Hannover

[Hannover]

This thread is revealing in that it shreds Andrew Mathis from the so called 'holocau$t' History Project. This is the same Handy Andy that threatens people and spams in frustration when he gets shown the door with his scientifically absurd assertions.

So what does this say about the so called 'holocau$t' History Project? Can you say New World Odor?

It's not difficult folks, the laughable stories shoot themselves in the foot, Revisionist are just the messengers.

The 'holocau$t', falling apart faster than a cheap suit.

- Hannover

[Secret Anne X]

Hi,

the idea of 4 inch introduction columns has been floated to account for the fact that the holes implied by Michael Kula's testimony (the famous wire mess things) would be 70 cm on each side. I think it was also the size of the holes Pery Broad argued for Auschwitz I.

The problem with either case is that, ever since Faurisson and Lueftl pointed out that Zyklon takes a long time to evaporate (I believe 2 hours), believers have been following Pressac in insisting that the Zyklon crystals were _removed_ with a wire contraption 10 minutes after being introduced into the gas chamber. There is _no_ evidence either in documents or in testimony for the existence of these Magical Zyklon Scoopers, but, again, to believers, if the existence of such things is necessary for the story to hang together, then such things existed. Anyway, if such scoopers _did_ exist, they would not have been able to work in a 4" diameter hole.

I don't want to dwell on other posts on this thread but I must say that the comment of Andrew Mathis above that water facilitates cyanide gas development, and as proof, points to the idea that US gas chambers put "crystals" in "water" has to be one of the most illiterate comments on the subject of the Holocaust I have ever read.

[Hannover]

Secret Anne X,
see:
Zyklon-B wire mesh insertion devices debunked
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=309

the late Bob Countess's reconstruction of the laughable 'wire mesh devices, plus an image of what is claimed to be the Zyklon-B columns by the absurd 'holocau$t History Project'

Note that the claimed columns could not have projected the long 'shadows' that the drawn-in blobs on the tampered aerial photos are said to be. I invite you to post to that thread.

Man, do we have them by the b___s, or what?

- Hannover

[Radar]

I understand Mathis postures himself as the representative of revisionism debunkers. Pretty funny since he debunks himself quite handily.


As Claudia pointed out Mathis has the condensation process exactly backwards with Zyklon-B. Mathis claims the humidity condensation caused by chemical reactions enhanced the outgassing process. Rudolf shows that these same reactions caused the pellet load to cool and collect condensation. This cooling and moistening SLOWS outgassing - it does not quicken it as Mathis says in this thread. This is a simple fact anyone who poses himself as a gas chamber studier should know. That is why they heated Zyklon in the delousing machines.

Another gaff by Mathis is his suggestion that Zyklon had its indicator substance removed in order to prevent those being gassed from knowing and panicking. This is silly since the alleged mesh columns would have had a clearly visible container of material being lowered on a string. Even non-mesh column chambers would have had pellets poured through the roof portals. How in the world would those inside not realize what was going on at that point? It's absurd to suggest that scented or unscented would make a difference at that point. This is just another case of so-called holocaust experts exposing their ineptitude and therefore the falseness of their claims.

Mathis never answered the point about condensation and cooling.

[Hannover]

Good work, Radar.

As for Mathis; well, he seems to serve a good purpose for Revisionists. His arguments are classic Believer drivel and shot down with ease. Handy indeed.

- Hannover