Today's NY Times has a report about a book, "Eavesdropping on Hell", by Robert J. Hanyok a National Security Agency employee at the Cryptologic Center in Maryland claiming that the Allies had information about the Nazi extermination of Jews but had not properly interpreted it because of bureaucratic indifference and anti-Semitism in high places in Britain and the US. The Times story presents the book as the verdict of a "US study", "official" - the usual credential trickery by the promoters.
I have not seen the book but hope that some of our sleuths can go to work on it.
There is not a single word about the gas chambers in the story. Hanyok claims a smoking gun in an allied intercept in January 1943 which allegedly "specified the number of Jews killed under 'Operation Reinhard' at four death camps - Lublin, Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka - through 1942: 1,247,166."
The Times reporter, Sam Roberts, in the usual Times style interviewed "experts" on the subject from the Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, the Weiesenthal Center in Los Angles and the Wyman Institute for Holocaust Studies at Gratz College in Pennsylvania. Sort of like interviewing Stalin for his opinion on the Gulags. Needless to say, no one from a revisionist organization was interviewed, God Forbid!
If I might hazard a guess I would say that Hanyok, who is said to have spent six years working on this 167-page book, discovered that the Allies didn't believe the gassing stories they were being fed by Rabbi Wise and the others and fell back on his "anti-Semitism in high places" explanation.
Any thoughts?
Heads up - new book claims Allies knew about Holocaust
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Sounds like a rehashing of news which appeared in January 2002.
Source : http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/Korherr/JTA150102.html
widukind
(...)
According to authors Stephen Tyas of England and Peter Witte of Germany, the recently declassified and decoded Nazi radio dispatches "for the first time" show the Nazis' own accounting of the numbers of Jews killed in 1942 in four Nazi camps.
In that year, a total of 1,274,166 Jews were killed in the extermination camps of Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka, as well as in the Majdanek concentration camp.
The decoded document indicates that 24,733 were killed in Majdanek, 434,508 in Belzec, 101,370 in Sobibor and 713,555 in Treblinka in 1942.
The information was broadcast in coded messages from occupied Lublin, Poland, on Jan. 11, 1943.
(...)
Source : http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/Korherr/JTA150102.html
widukind
Hanyok claims a smoking gun in an allied intercept in January 1943 which allegedly "specified the number of Jews killed under 'Operation Reinhard' at four death camps - Lublin, Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka - through 1942: 1,247,166."
Oh yawn, this is old news, we've shot down this absurd 'intercept' claim long ago.
see:
'Occam's Razor / 'Code Words' when no evidence exists'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=347
And they don't tell you that, the method of 'extermination' at those camps was supposed to have been diesel exhaust from a Soviet diesel submarine engine and/or, depending on which tale you hear, a Soviet diesel tank engine, which is scientifically absurd and has been thoroughly debunked by the rationally minded.
They also don't tell you that the alleged huge mass grave sites that are claimed have never been shown to exist.
There's plenty about each camp at this forum, the lies are shown to be simply laughable.
- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.
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comrade seinfeld
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I haven't got time to make detailed comments at this time, but referring to the website http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/05/07/Holocaust_NSA.html I think that you revisionists have a severe problem here, at least as far as the so-called Aktion Reinhardt camps are concerned. Saying that there is no forensic evidence for an extermination program here is not credible, as there is at least incomplete evidence. The fact that an intercepted Nazi message admits an extermination program is almost irrefutable evidence...
comrade seinfeld said:
Irrefutable? Oh please. Where does it say that? Where's your forensic evidence? Show us physical evidence. Tell us how the claimed diesel gas chambers worked. Show us the claimed mass graves.
I see you have dodged the other points in this thread. Little wonder you have no time for comment. You've been challenged.
While generally uninformed of Revisionist points, even David Irving says, from seinfeld's own, obviously unread link - http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/Ko ... 50102.html :
- Hannover
The fact that an intercepted Nazi message admits an extermination program is almost irrefutable evidence...
Irrefutable? Oh please. Where does it say that? Where's your forensic evidence? Show us physical evidence. Tell us how the claimed diesel gas chambers worked. Show us the claimed mass graves.
I see you have dodged the other points in this thread. Little wonder you have no time for comment. You've been challenged.
The document doesn’t say the Jews were killed, it only indicates the number at each camp: 24,733 at Majdanek, 434,508 at Belzec, 101,370 at Sobibor and 713,555 at Treblinka. The document also provides a total of 24,733 for Lublin (Lemberg), but since Lublin is not considered by the keepers of the Holocaust to be an extermination camp ....
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=347
While generally uninformed of Revisionist points, even David Irving says, from seinfeld's own, obviously unread link - http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/Ko ... 50102.html :
As for that January 1943 intercept showing that 1,247,166 Jews had been exterminated in the Lublin, Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka camps in the "Operation Reinhardt" plans of the Nazis. We notice that Sam Roberts puts words into the document which do not exist: namely, those four names -- the document refers only to L, B, S and T, although at least one of the camps was not known to the Nazis by that name in WW2 but by another.
We have diffidently expressed our own concerns about the authenticity of that document elsewhere, and we shall now invite the Public Record Office to examine it with the same energy with which they recently tested the "Himmler-murder" documents.
- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.
Comrade Seinfeld,
On the reasonable assumption that the intercepted document is the one that may be found at http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/Ko ... 11242.html [this seems reasonable because it is an intercept of January 11, 1943, the very date claimed by Times writer Roberts and I assume author Hanyok (I haven't seen the book), and mentions the very same number of victims, 1,274,166] an examination will show that it does not suggest the killing of any prisoners. It records the number of "arrivals" at four camps. Only by assuming that all these prisoners were killed can the claim of "killing" be justified, hardly a serious argument, and the other available evidence suggests that this was not the case, i.e. impossible killing methods claimed elsewhere [diesel exhaust, electric plates, etc.], no physical evidence, etc. So who has a problem? We are always thrown back on the same old lies about the camps as killing factories.
On the reasonable assumption that the intercepted document is the one that may be found at http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/Ko ... 11242.html [this seems reasonable because it is an intercept of January 11, 1943, the very date claimed by Times writer Roberts and I assume author Hanyok (I haven't seen the book), and mentions the very same number of victims, 1,274,166] an examination will show that it does not suggest the killing of any prisoners. It records the number of "arrivals" at four camps. Only by assuming that all these prisoners were killed can the claim of "killing" be justified, hardly a serious argument, and the other available evidence suggests that this was not the case, i.e. impossible killing methods claimed elsewhere [diesel exhaust, electric plates, etc.], no physical evidence, etc. So who has a problem? We are always thrown back on the same old lies about the camps as killing factories.
comrade Seinfeld wrote:
incomplete evidence for what? Certainly people died at those camps but are the soviet and polish(including recent work by Kola) finds in line with an extermination? NO, THEY ARE NOT! Several hundred bodies at Treblinka, several hundreds at Belzec, etc. And yet comrade seinfeld seems to think that is enough material evidence for the 900.000 at Treblinka, 600.000 at Belzec, etc.
Saying that there is no forensic evidence for an extermination program here is not credible, as there is at least incomplete evidence
incomplete evidence for what? Certainly people died at those camps but are the soviet and polish(including recent work by Kola) finds in line with an extermination? NO, THEY ARE NOT! Several hundred bodies at Treblinka, several hundreds at Belzec, etc. And yet comrade seinfeld seems to think that is enough material evidence for the 900.000 at Treblinka, 600.000 at Belzec, etc.
... are the soviet and polish (including recent work by Kola) finds in line with an extermination? NO, THEY ARE NOT!
The utter fraud of Kola's effort is exposed here:
Belzec: a fraudulent excavation
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=30
Belzec/Kola - Going to extremes to sell the lie
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=368
- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.
-
comrade seinfeld
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In relation to my previous post in this thread I was under the impression that the references to the Aktion Reinhardt camps referred to killing (on the basis of what Irving said), but I could be mistaken, and, when possible, I will examine the matter. At present I am utilizing a computer to which I have limited access in relation to employment.
I would hope that everyone in this forum, irrespective of ideological bias, would try to be historically objective, and, in this vein, I would think that if the references to Aktion Reinhardt do refer to killing in what is apparently an intercepted Nazi communication, then, in conjunction with what other (incomplete, i.e., the limited evidence of mass graves, and the unexplained Jew shipments) evidence, I think that it is only reasonable to conclude that there was genocide, although that might only be in accordance with the Functionalist perspective. For instance, Gitta Sereny (and she is no fool), has, I understand, always maintained that Auschwitz-Birkenau was not a death camp, but that the killing was at the Aktion Reinhardt camps.
I would hope that everyone in this forum, irrespective of ideological bias, would try to be historically objective, and, in this vein, I would think that if the references to Aktion Reinhardt do refer to killing in what is apparently an intercepted Nazi communication, then, in conjunction with what other (incomplete, i.e., the limited evidence of mass graves, and the unexplained Jew shipments) evidence, I think that it is only reasonable to conclude that there was genocide, although that might only be in accordance with the Functionalist perspective. For instance, Gitta Sereny (and she is no fool), has, I understand, always maintained that Auschwitz-Birkenau was not a death camp, but that the killing was at the Aktion Reinhardt camps.
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comrade seinfeld
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comrade seinfeld wrote:In relation to my previous post in this thread I was under the impression that the references to the Aktion Reinhardt camps referred to killing (on the basis of what Irving said), but I could be mistaken, and, when possible, I will examine the matter. At present I am utilizing a computer to which I have limited access in relation to employment.
I would hope that everyone in this forum, irrespective of ideological bias, would try to be historically objective, and, in this vein, I would think that if the references to Aktion Reinhardt do refer to killing in what is apparently an intercepted Nazi communication, then, in conjunction with what other (incomplete, i.e., the limited evidence of mass graves, and the unexplained Jew shipments) evidence, I think that it is only reasonable to conclude that there was genocide, although that might only be in accordance with the Functionalist perspective. For instance, Gitta Sereny (and she is no fool), has, I understand, always maintained that Auschwitz-Birkenau was not a death camp, but that the killing was at the Aktion Reinhardt camps.
A reference to the intercepted Nazi communication is http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/dec ... Hofle.html , and, although I cannot understand the German, I presume that there is no explict reference to killing, so that, contrary to what I thought, there is, indeed, no intercepted Nazi communication admitting genocide. In this regard, I cannot understand why Irving did not take the trouble to translate (even if roughly) this contentious document into English so as to avoid misunderstandings. As far as the Aktion Reinhardt camps are concerned, therefore, from a revisionist perspective, they are simply meant to be centres where the Jews were to be systematically robbed, immoral in itself, of course, but not part of an exterminationist program.
As a "Holocaust" agnostic, however, I will have to keep an open mind about the matter of the Aktion Reinhardt camps, since I really don't have the resources to reach definitive conclusions, as I doubt anyone else in this forum has either, although it is important to resist theoretically the official suppression of "Holocaust" debate by the exterminationists. In any case I have included the text below of the contentious Nazi communication so that someone could perhaps translate it.
12. OMX de OMQ 1000 89 ? ?
Geheime Reichssache! An das Reichssicherheitshauptamt, zu Händen SS Obersturmbannführer EICHMANN, Berlin ... rest missed ..
13/15. OLQ de OMQ 1005 83 234 250
Geheime Reichssache! An den Befehlshaber der Sicherheitspol., zu Händen SS Obersturmbannführer HEIM, KRAKAU. Betr. 14-tägige Meldung Einsatz REINHART. Bezug: dort. Fs. Zugang bis 31.12.42, L 12761,B 0, S 515, T 10335 zusammen 23611. Stand ... 31.12.42, L 24733, B 434508, S 101370, T 71355, zusammen 1274166.
SS und Pol.führer LUBLIN, HOEFLE, Sturmbannführer.
[...]
I am using a proxy server which always stops me from putting the text in the quotation format.
There is absolutely no evidence, neither documentary nor forensic, that the Reinhardt camps were extermination camps, where over a million Jews were gassed with diesel engine exhaust fumes.
Just because Gitta Sereny is no fool is not sufficient proof.
The intercepted Höfle telegram of Jan. 11, 1943 is about admissions of deportees to the Reinhardt camps, which served as transfer camps of Polish Jews for deportations further east.
In none of the post war German war criminal trials was it proven, that these camps were extermination camps. For the German judiciary this was ‘offenkundig’ (evident), which was similar to the IMT articles and did not have to be proven.
It is all bullshit.
Just because Gitta Sereny is no fool is not sufficient proof.
The intercepted Höfle telegram of Jan. 11, 1943 is about admissions of deportees to the Reinhardt camps, which served as transfer camps of Polish Jews for deportations further east.
In none of the post war German war criminal trials was it proven, that these camps were extermination camps. For the German judiciary this was ‘offenkundig’ (evident), which was similar to the IMT articles and did not have to be proven.
It is all bullshit.
comrade seinfeld, here is the thing in english:
comrade seinfeld wrote:
consider that at this forum there are people from different countries and
different political views. I have often voted for left wing politicians in my country, though I dont consider myself a leftist.
comrade seinfeld wrote:
I think that revisionist researchers in fact consider many of these camps, transit camps.
I´d like to point out to you how Reinhardt is spelled wrong in the german original too. odd.
Like Bergmann, Hannover and others have remarked, there is no material evidence, no murder weapon, nothing but claims made by witnesses under the stalinist soviets and poles.
13/15. OLQ de OMQ 1005 83 234 250
State Secret!
To the Senior Commander of the Security Police [and the Security Service], for the attention of SS Obersturmbannfuhrer HEIM, CRACOW.
Subject: fortnightly report Einsatz REINHART.
Reference: radio telegram therefrom.
recorded arrivals until December 31, 42,
L [Lublin]
12,761
B [Belzec]
0
S [Sobibor]
515
T [Treblinka]
10 335
together
23 611
sum total [as per] December 31, 42,
L
24 733
B
434 508
S
101 370
T
71 355
read: 713 555
together
1 274 166
SS and Police Leader Lublin, HOFLE, Sturmbannfuhrer
comrade seinfeld wrote:
I would hope that everyone in this forum, irrespective of ideological bias, would try to be historically objective...
consider that at this forum there are people from different countries and
different political views. I have often voted for left wing politicians in my country, though I dont consider myself a leftist.
comrade seinfeld wrote:
As far as the Aktion Reinhardt camps are concerned, therefore, from a revisionist perspective, they are simply meant to be centres where the Jews were to be systematically robbed, immoral in itself, of course, but not part of an exterminationist program
I think that revisionist researchers in fact consider many of these camps, transit camps.
I´d like to point out to you how Reinhardt is spelled wrong in the german original too. odd.
Like Bergmann, Hannover and others have remarked, there is no material evidence, no murder weapon, nothing but claims made by witnesses under the stalinist soviets and poles.
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Richard Perle
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From Irving:
Does anyone know which camps were known by other names at the time?
If the documents are genuine, then I think the fairest conclusion is that they could support either extermination or the revisionist alternative of resettlement. If we are to believe that this coded message was reporting numbers killed, then where are the other messages discussing such matters? The Germans were clearly not afraid to transmit such information.
The scarce (to put it mildly) nature of this type of evidence, to me, indicates the misinterpretation of the information by extermanationists. I can't help but feel that this, and extermination evidence in general, is a cherry-picking of the most ambiguous documents to support a conclusion that has been decided in advance.
the document refers only to L, B, S and T, although at least one of the camps was not known to the Nazis by that name in WW2 but by another.
Does anyone know which camps were known by other names at the time?
If the documents are genuine, then I think the fairest conclusion is that they could support either extermination or the revisionist alternative of resettlement. If we are to believe that this coded message was reporting numbers killed, then where are the other messages discussing such matters? The Germans were clearly not afraid to transmit such information.
The scarce (to put it mildly) nature of this type of evidence, to me, indicates the misinterpretation of the information by extermanationists. I can't help but feel that this, and extermination evidence in general, is a cherry-picking of the most ambiguous documents to support a conclusion that has been decided in advance.
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