New research uncovers strong evidence that Jews were murdered BEFORE they reached Treblinka

[Nazgul]

Hour long stops are needed for this process. Anyone familiar with railways will know there are "sidings" where a train will pull into to allow another train to pass. This are located at various places along all railways, not in cities and not regarded as a stop.

Nazgul, reading into the context of your post, to clarify, I am pretty sure you meant to say "Hour long stops are not needed...", correct?

Thx fixed now

[Lamprecht]

When I read that there were several thousand camps along the rail route and people were dropped off and collected from these camps once more I want to scream! There were never thousands of camps they were simply collection points that normal people would refer to as train stations... If they existed at all.

The website here claims there were a bunch of camps: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14794

[Nazgul]

When I read that there were several thousand camps along the rail route and people were dropped off and collected from these camps once more I want to scream! There were never thousands of camps they were simply collection points that normal people would refer to as train stations... If they existed at all.

It would appear that the poster borjastick has not read the material presented by "Butterfangers" here. If this poster has evidence that those Zwangarbeitslager (Zwl) did not exist but are somehow fabrications invented by Deutschland-ein-denkmal.de or collection points, that input would be most welcome. .

The site lists labour camp locations, along with names, and other details:

• Poland-1030 Zwl
• Ostland-123 Zwl
• Austria- Hungarian Jews-230 Zwl

Some of Jews were transited to important labour camps from Treblinka and Sobibor. (Rytz, Cohen). Some camps had 8 000 workers such as Skarzysko-Kamienna. In addition to Zwangarbeitslager, Jews were also contained within konzentrationslager. I will add that Deutschland-ein-denkmal.de who compiled this data are not revisionists but are trying to find, as we all are, forgotten data.

It is clear that the 3600 sites discovered, previously unknown may have profound implications. Until now the extent of the Jewish labour camps had been grossly underestimated. Historians such as Ulrich Herbert Universitaet Freiburg (Forced Laborers in the Third Reich: An Overview) appear to have underestimated the Jewish Labour contribution to the Reich.
There were 17 camps in the Sobibor area; these were Zwangarbeitslager für Juden. Those interested can read what was written.
Zwangarbeitlager für Juden Sobibor. I recently discovered that there were 17 camps in the Sobibor area; these were Zwangarbeitslager für Juden. These camps are located at Adampol, Czerniejow, Dorohusk, Kamien, Krychow, Luta, Nowosiolki, Osowa, Ruda Opalin, Sawin, Siedliszcze, Sobibor village, Staw-Sajczyce, Tomaszowka, Ujazdow, Wlodawa, and Zmudz.

In addition I am finding more and more camps in the Ukraine not listed.

I have written about these here. link

[borjastick]

borjastick:

Stop avoiding the main claim that you have made and start trying to prove the points you think you know about. This isn't third grade playtime here, we are all equipped with X-Ray specs and bags of experience at this train stop mate and can sniff out half wits and fools from a mile off and in the dark!

borjastick, do you deny that the revisionist thesis on the Holocaust is The Final Solution to the Jewish problem was a forced emigration program and not an extermination pogrom?

Removal or expulsion was the programme and the delivery method of the so called 'final solution', a term I would add that was used by the jews themselves prior to all this happening, and no there was no extermination 'pogrom'.

[Hektor]

borjastick:

Stop avoiding the main claim that you have made and start trying to prove the points you think you know about. This isn't third grade playtime here, we are all equipped with X-Ray specs and bags of experience at this train stop mate and can sniff out half wits and fools from a mile off and in the dark!

borjastick, do you deny that the revisionist thesis on the Holocaust is The Final Solution to the Jewish problem was a forced emigration program and not an extermination pogrom?

Removal or expulsion was the programme and the delivery method of the so called 'final solution', a term I would add that was used by the jews themselves prior to all this happening, and no there was no extermination 'pogrom'.

Physical removal from society and territory. That's what the NS-policy towards Jews was. And that's what the relevant documents overwhelmingly say unequivocally (Evakuierung, Umsiedlung). It's also consistent with the provable actions undertaken. If you can have people ignoring this, you can of course make people believe another narrative on this... One of extermination and homicidal gassings. But does any of the evidence actually affirm this? What is done is using deportation, internment and disease outcomes as stat of slippery slopes to make people believe for which one doesn't present any evidence.

[Zolton]

Zolton:

borjastick, do you deny that the revisionist thesis on the Holocaust is The Final Solution to the Jewish problem was a forced emigration program and not an extermination pogrom?

borjastick:

Removal or expulsion was the programme and the delivery method of the so called 'final solution

Hektor:

Physical removal from society and territory. That's what the NS-policy towards Jews was. And that's what the relevant documents overwhelmingly say unequivocally (Evakuierung, Umsiedlung). It's also consistent with the provable actions undertaken. If you can have people ignoring this, you can of course make people believe another narrative on this... One of extermination and homicidal gassings. But does any of the evidence actually affirm this? What is done is using deportation, internment and disease outcomes as stat of slippery slopes to make people believe for which one doesn't present any evidence.

Hektor, you nailed it!


That's why Nazgul refused to anser this:

Zolton:

Nazgul, do you deny that the revisionist thesis is that the Nazis Final Solution to the Jewish problem was a forced emigration program and not an extermination pogram?

Nazgul:

I have no idea if there is a "revisionist thesis".

And falsely alleged this:

Nazgul:

That is off topic for this thread and will not be commented on.

And why he's dodging this:

Zolton:

Is it possible that the lengthy stops included time taken to let the Jews (and the train crews) out of the trains to go to the toilet, get some water and some food, give sick Jews some care or drop off Jews who were too sick to continue, in the hopes that taking a break at a camp would help them get better so they could continue on at a later date?

Nazgul:

It is possible

Zolton:

Right, which also means this has never been proven to not have happened.

Zolton:

Is it possible that for each Jew that was removed from the train, another Jew from a camp took his place and continued their journey east?

Nazgul:

It is possible

Z0ton:

Right, which also means this has never been proven to not have happened.

Nazgul, Is it plausible that the lengthy stops included time taken to let the Jews (and the train crews) out of the trains to go to the toilet, get some water and some food, give sick Jews some care or drop off Jews who were too sick to continue, in the hopes that taking a break at a camp would help them get better so they could continue on at a later date?

Nazgul,Is it plausible that for each Jew that was removed from the train, another Jew from a camp took his place and continued their journey east?

Nazgul, Is it probable that the lengthy stops included time taken to let the Jews (and the train crews) out of the trains to go to the toilet, get some water and some food, give sick Jews some care or drop off Jews who were too sick to continue, in the hopes that taking a break at a camp would help them get better so they could continue on at a later date?

Nazgul,Is it probable that for each Jew that was removed from the train, another Jew from a camp took his place and continued their journey east?

Nazgul, do you deny that the revisionist thesis is that the Nazis Final Solution to the Jewish problem was a forced emigration program and not an extermination pogram?

[HeiligeSturm]

Removal or expulsion was the programme and the delivery method of the so called 'final solution', a term I would add that was used by the jews themselves prior to all this happening, and no there was no extermination 'pogrom'.

Exactly.

This is the most famous book on the subject:
Theodore Herzl: Der Judenstaat/The Jewish State: An Attempt at a Modern Solution to the Jewish Question (1896)
https://knesset.gov.il/vip/herzl/eng/He ... 1_eng.html

Another book on the subject:
The Jewish Question History of a Marxist Debate by Enzo Traverso

To the question itself. And yes, many went or were sent to the EAST.

"I can today confirm that the aim of solving the Jewish problem in Lithuania has been achieved by EK 3.
In Lithuania there are no more Jews, apart from work Jews and their families."
Claimed to be from the report of Karl Jäger December 1 , 1941.

"an official announcement that not a single Jew remained in the territory taken from Lithuania as it was occupied by German troops.
The last of several hundred remaining Jews, together with numbers of Lithuanian citizens,
were evacuated a few hours ago on the last six trains to leave Memel before the occupation."
Jewish Telegraphic Agency March 24, 1939
https://www.jta.org/archive/property-wo ... es-wrecked

The war haven't even started yet! (Evacuation is usually extermination, innit?)

"Another wave of Jews reached Siberia with the outbreak of World War II"
https://www.anumuseum.org.il/jewish-settlement-siberia/

"During World War II large numbers of Jewish refugees from the areas occupied by the Germans reached Siberia, and some of them remained there after the war ended."
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/siberia

"Highlights of the successful resettlement of thousands of Jewish evacuees from the Ukraine upon land in the Soviet interior in villages from the Volga to Siberia – were made public today by the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee here.

Agricultural machinery, cattle, seed, feed and other farming equipment and supplies were taken along. Only the bare land was left to the Nazis. "
Jewish Telegraphic Agency October 29, 1942
https://www.jta.org/archive/successful- ... lga-region

Even though many activists of Bund and his youth division, Tsukunft, managed to flee from the German occupied zone of Poland to the East, they were soon arrested by NKVD as ‚counterrevolutionary elements‘ and sent mainly to Altai Krai. After 1942, they started to create illegal organizations in Kuybyshev and collected information about other Bundists and their families. They aimed initially to leave the Soviet Union with the Anders’s Army, although finally many decided to stay in Central Asia and returned to Poland only in 1946.
https://www.hsozkult.de/conferencereport/id/fdkn-126550

[Zolton]

borjastick:

Removal or expulsion was the programme and the delivery method of the so called 'final solution', a term I would add that was used by the jews themselves prior to all this happening, and no there was no extermination 'pogrom'.

HeiligeSturm :

Exactly.

HeiligeSturm :

To the question itself. And yes, many went or were sent to the EAST.

"I can today confirm that the aim of solving the Jewish problem in Lithuania has been achieved by EK 3.
In Lithuania there are no more Jews, apart from work Jews and their families."
Claimed to be from the report of Karl Jäger December 1 , 1941.

"an official announcement that not a single Jew remained in the territory taken from Lithuania as it was occupied by German troops.
The last of several hundred remaining Jews, together with numbers of Lithuanian citizens,
were evacuated a few hours ago on the last six trains to leave Memel before the occupation."
Jewish Telegraphic Agency March 24, 1939
https://www.jta.org/archive/property-wo ... es-wrecked

The war haven't even started yet! (Evacuation is usually extermination, innit?)

"Another wave of Jews reached Siberia with the outbreak of World War II"
https://www.anumuseum.org.il/jewish-settlement-siberia/

"During World War II large numbers of Jewish refugees from the areas occupied by the Germans reached Siberia, and some of them remained there after the war ended."
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/siberia

"Highlights of the successful resettlement of thousands of Jewish evacuees from the Ukraine upon land in the Soviet interior in villages from the Volga to Siberia – were made public today by the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee here.

Agricultural machinery, cattle, seed, feed and other farming equipment and supplies were taken along. Only the bare land was left to the Nazis. "
Jewish Telegraphic Agency October 29, 1942
https://www.jta.org/archive/successful- ... lga-region

Even though many activists of Bund and his youth division, Tsukunft, managed to flee from the German occupied zone of Poland to the East, they were soon arrested by NKVD as ‚counterrevolutionary elements‘ and sent mainly to Altai Krai. After 1942, they started to create illegal organizations in Kuybyshev and collected information about other Bundists and their families. They aimed initially to leave the Soviet Union with the Anders’s Army, although finally many decided to stay in Central Asia and returned to Poland only in 1946.
https://www.hsozkult.de/conferencereport/id/fdkn-126550

So not only were Jews being expelled from the west by the Nazis, as revisionists admit The Final Solution's goal was, Jews were escaping to the east. (Why on earth would a Jew want to stay in the west?) And the Soviets themselves were transporting Jews to the east. The intention of EVERYONE involved was to get the Jews from the west to the east. And yet, the thesis that Butterfangers is proffering here is

that evidence strongly suggests many (if not most) of them disembarked before ever getting as far as Treblinka... Since we now know there were forced labor camps at these stops... it can be argued a majority of them never arrived at TII... it seems all but certain that a substantial number of Jews were let off at each of these stops... most, it would seem, departed at various labor camps along the way... The evidence for Jews having disembarked is stronger than any evidence suggesting they did not.... there is sound evidence, that tons of people disembarked from the train before ever getting near TII... Many could have died by various causes in these camps before ever having any opportunity to get back on the line toward Treblinka...

And that this "new information" solves "the looming question of "where did they [Jews] go?". IOW, the answer to the question of "If the Jews weren't murdered at Treblinka II, then were did they go?" is, according to Butterfangers: Somewhere west of Treblinka.

[bombsaway]

The Belzec deaths by train have been discussed.

. . .

Hour long stops are not needed for this process. Anyone familiar with railways will know there are "sidings" where a train will pull into to allow another train to pass. This are located at various places along all railways, not in cities and not regarded as a stop.

This document (you can use google to translate) provides documentary evidence for what was causing delays on the Belzec line. I see no reason why the same might not apply to Treblinka, which was also taking resettlement trains, no doubt filled to capacity for maximum efficiency

https://www.ns-archiv.de/verfolgung/pol ... edlung.php

When the train left Kolomea at 8:50 p.m. as scheduled, the security detail moved into the accommodation. The escort detail was, as initially determined by me, with 5 Wchtm. (SD) on 1 passenger car at the beginning and 5 watch m. (SD) distributed to 1 passenger car at the end of the turn. Because of the length of the train and its total load of 8,205 Jews, this distribution proved to be impractical. train At the next stop, J. ordered the guards to be distributed over the entire train. the guard had to remain in the brake shacks during the entire journey in order to be able to counteract the escape attempts of the Jews most effectively in this way. After only a short drive, the Jews tried to break through individual wagons on all sides and even the wagon covers. It was also partially possible to carry out this project, so that 5 stations before Stanislau Zugw. J. asked the station master in Stanislau by telephone to have nails and boards ready for a temporary closure of the damaged wagons and to request the railway security to guard the transport. When the train arrived in Stanislau, craftsmen from Stanislau station and the railway security were present to carry out the necessary repairs and also to take over the guarding of the train.

The work took 1 1/2 hours. When the train continued after this time, when it stopped again after a few stations, it turned out that the Jews had broken out larger holes in several wagons and that most of the barbed wire attached to the ventilation windows on the outside had been torn off. In one wagon, the Jews had even worked with hammers and tongs. When questioned, they explained that the Sipo had given them this hand tool with the explanation that they could use it at their next place of work. train J. had the tools handed over to him by the Jews. As the transport train continued its journey, the train had to be temporarily nailed up whenever it stopped at a station,

The document does mention Jews being transported to forced labor camp called L. This would seem to be Lublin (Majdanek) and is one of the destinations noted in the Hoefle telegram:

At 11.15 the train arrived in Lviv. Since no relief for the escort detail had arrived, the escort detail J. had to take over the guarding of the train to Belzec. After a short stop at Lemberg station, the train drove to the Kleparow suburban station, where SS-Ostuf. Schulze was given 9 wagons, which were marked with an "L" and intended for the forced labor camp, and were unloaded here. SS Ostuf. Schulze then had about 1,000 Jews loaded in again. At around 1:30 p.m., the transport continued towards Belzec.

No doubt there was a forced labor camp near Lemberg (Lwow) but there was a massive ghetto there, and yeah, another cause for the delays could have been loading up non-employable Jewish "resettlers" from nearby ghettos.

[Nazgul]

And that this "new information" solves "the looming question of "where did they [Jews] go?". IOW, the answer to the question of "If the Jews weren't murdered at Treblinka II, then were did they go?" is, according to Butterfangers: Somewhere west of Treblinka.

There are discoveries of Jewish Labourer camps in the east. The use of Jewish Labour has been grossly underestimated by scholars.

It has been shown that thousands of previously unknown or forgotten camps of all kinds did exist in that period of turmoil which took the lives of some 70 million people. People were transited to the east as Korherr reported, many made it back again either to work in other labour camps or be incarcerated in konzentrationslager. Some of course did die.

Not all camps were military huts with barbed wire, some were places where workers live, often poorly guarded, if at all.

The two Treblinka camps housed about 4 thousand people. The sources from Germany, often quoted here, state that at Treblinka there were two Jewish Labour Camps, one for men and the other for women. Keep in mind that it would be illegal for them to state that the alleged extermination camp was not for that purpose; they would suffer the same fate at the Nazi "Granny" Ursula Haverbeck.

It has been shown here that there were a large number of labour camps for Jews on the lines heading to Treblinka from both directions. The trains did stop at these camps for extended periods, they also stopped at railway junctions.
They did not stop at any other locations.

Belzec had an extensive camp system as did Sobibor. Auschwitz had 40 camps within its jurisdiction. These have not been included in the data quoted.

Maps have been presented of the eastward progression of Jewish Labour Camps, then a westward drive as the Russians were advancing. The understanding of all this is still work in progress.

[Zolton]

And that this "new information" solves "the looming question of "where did they [Jews] go?". IOW, the answer to the question of "If the Jews weren't murdered at Treblinka II, then were did they go?" is, according to Butterfangers: Somewhere west of Treblinka.

Nazgul:

There are discoveries of Jewish Labourer camps in the east...

Notice how Nazgu continues to dodge these questions:

Nazgul, Is it plausible that the lengthy stops included time taken to let the Jews (and the train crews) out of the trains to go to the toilet, get some water and some food, give sick Jews some care or drop off Jews who were too sick to continue, in the hopes that taking a break at a camp would help them get better so they could continue on at a later date?

Nazgul,Is it plausible that for each Jew that was removed from the train, another Jew from a camp took his place and continued their journey east?

Nazgul, Is it probable that the lengthy stops included time taken to let the Jews (and the train crews) out of the trains to go to the toilet, get some water and some food, give sick Jews some care or drop off Jews who were too sick to continue, in the hopes that taking a break at a camp would help them get better so they could continue on at a later date?

Nazgul,Is it probable that for each Jew that was removed from the train, another Jew from a camp took his place and continued their journey east?

Nazgul, do you deny that the revisionist thesis is that the Nazis Final Solution to the Jewish problem was a forced emigration program and not an extermination pogram?

New questions added:

Does the dropping off of Jews from trains heading east on the Treblinka line provide any evidence that those same Jews weren't later put on other trains heading east?

What would it have made more sense; to empty trains as they headed east along the route towards Treblinka, or try to keep them as full as possible?

Nazgul:

Maps have been presented of the eastward progression of Jewish Labour Camps,

So you don't deny that the Nazis, Soviets and the Jews themselves made a steady effort to funnel and push the Jews eastward?

[HeiligeSturm]

This September 17, 1941 report must continuation or correction of Jewish Telegraphic Agency March 24, 1939 article
because "the actual invasion" is mentioned.
Anyway this casts some doubt over e.g. [Karl] Jäger Report

Who writes the history...
War criminal and illegal combatant Historian and heroic partisan Yitzhak Arad
participated in very interesting activities during the WWII. Like mining some TRAINS.
And of course he suffered from antisemitism as you can read from his Wikipedia page.
He avoided war crimes trial due to "public" outcry.

[Nazgul]

No doubt there was a forced labor camp near Lemberg (Lwow) but there was a massive ghetto there, and yeah, another cause for the delays could have been loading up non-employable Jewish "resettlers" from nearby ghettos.

Thanks for this interesting material. The article says that the train went from Lviv station to Kleperow, a northern suburb of Lviv. Kleperow is also a railway junction, with lines east, west and north. The Lviv railway station has lines directly to Belzec area so did not need to head to Kleperow first. The line heading north from Kleperow arrives at Lutsk labour camp for Jews, which was established a year prior. 9 days earlier (the mentioned transport) at lutzk, 2000 Jews which had escaped from the labour camp, joined partisans were captured and shot. Apparently the 500 artisans left at the camp were shot as collaborators. This camp was depleted of workers. There were 9 carriages with 200 in each that left Kleperow going to L, which account for 1 800 potential replacements of Jews if the carriages did arrive at Lutsk. There are no known labour camps in the Lviv area. Lutsk is about 140 km away.

Nine wagons of Jews were unloaded at Kleperow (~1 800 Juden). SS Obersturmbannführer (Senior storm leader) Schultz put another 1000 back in the unloaded cars for Belzec station.

Belzec had a series of labour camps for Jews, 10 in fact.

[bombsaway]

There are no known labour camps in the Lviv area. Lutsk is about 140 km away.

One of the major problems with your theory is there were labor camps everywhere in Poland, and especially by major ghettos.

Eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janowska_ ... ation_camp, literally on the outskirts of Lviv

Belzec had a series of labour camps for Jews, 10 in fact.

It should be explained (with evidence!) what happened to the Jews unfit for work who were the majority in the General Government, and who were seemingly filtered out and sent to Reinhard camps like Belzec. If they were put to work they should have been rehabilitated first, but where?

"From the General Government, starting at Lublin, the Jews are now being deported to the east. A fairly barbaric procedure not to be described in more detail is used, and there is not much left of the Jews themselves. In general, one can say that 60% of them have to be liquidated, while only 40% can still be used for work."

"1.) It would be useful to divide the Jewish transports coming to the Lublin district into workable and non-workable Jews at the departure station. If this distinction at the departure station is not possible, one might have to proceed to separate the transport in Lublin according to the above-mentioned criteria.

2.) Unfit Jews all come to Belzec, the outermost border station in the Zamosz district."

[Lamprecht]

It should be explained (with evidence!) what happened to the Jews unfit for work who were the majority in the General Government, and who were seemingly filtered out and sent to Reinhard camps like Belzec. If they were put to work they should have been rehabilitated first, but where?

Most likely they were sent either to an internment camp or a ghetto. We don't know exactly where everyone went. For Belzec, the train records were allegedly destroyed by an aerial Soviet bomb. But even if there were documents recovered explaining this, they could easily have been lost or destroyed.
If there are no "huge mass graves" full of hundreds of thousand at Belzec -- and there is no reason to believe that there are -- then the Jews sent there must have, for the most part, continued on to somewhere else.

Regarding Goebbels:

"From the General Government, starting at Lublin, the Jews are now being deported to the east. A fairly barbaric procedure not to be described in more detail is used, and there is not much left of the Jews themselves. In general, one can say that 60% of them have to be liquidated, while only 40% can still be used for work."

Goebbels was just giving his opinion. In multiple subsequent entries, he describes a policy of resettlement.

As for - 17 March 1942 note by Fritz Reuter:

"1.) It would be useful to divide the Jewish transports coming to the Lublin district into workable and non-workable Jews at the departure station. If this distinction at the departure station is not possible, one might have to proceed to separate the transport in Lublin according to the above-mentioned criteria.

2.) Unfit Jews all come to Belzec, the outermost border station in the Zamosz district."

Under point 6:

"Abschließend erklärte er, er könne täglich 4-5 Transporte zu 1.000 Juden mit der Zielstation Belzec aufnehmen. Diese Juden kämen über die Grenze und würden nie mehr ins Generalgouvernement zurückkommen."

---

"In conclusion, he explained that he could take on 4-5 transports of 1,000 Jews to the Belzec destination every day. These Jews would cross the border and would never return to the General Government [for the occupied Polish Region]."