Simple challenge to bombsaway on alleged physical "evidence of a genocidal program"

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Lamprecht
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Re: Simple challenge to bombsaway on alleged physical "evidence of a genocidal program"

Postby Lamprecht » 4 months 2 weeks ago (Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:41 pm)

bombsaway wrote:No I think they just didn't take photos of the cremains they analyzed

That's extremely suspicious. Did they take photos of anything at all?
If so, why not take any photos of the alleged cremains? It seems like the most obvious thing to do.

Oh yeah, I guess you can just call anyone "anti-Semitic" for disagreeing with you, so why bother?

bombsaway wrote:nor proceed with their investigation in a way that would be appropriate for a criminal case.

That's not necessary at all. I posted a link to various guidelines on mass graves written for the field of archeology, not for criminal cases. We're just talking about basic science at this point.

Go search for basic archaeological practices on mass graves. You will find that they all take photographs for granted, as if it's the most obvious thing in the world. Because it is. What they appear to disagree on is the exact nature of the photographs that need to be taken. The only exceptions appear to be in the case where publishing the photos could cause serious ethnic conflict, or perhaps if the exact victim(s) are known and it would in effect be showing a specific, known person's body. Neither of these are the case here.
Guidelines for International Forensic Bio-archaeology Monitors of Mass Grave Exhumations

It is commonplace to include photographs of bodies in a mass grave report as they can impart important information easily. However, such figures can be deemed to violate privacy concerns or to be inflammatory to a degree that militates against a fair trial or which may revive ethnic tensions.

- Skinner, M., Alempijevic, D., & Djuric-Srejic, M. (2003). Guidelines for International Forensic Bio-archaeology Monitors of Mass Grave Exhumations. Forensic Science International, 134(2-3), 81–92. doi:10.1016/s0379-0738(03)00124-5

That's just something I found very quickly. Ultimately there is no excuse. And cameras were cheap and widely available at the time. Also, if you look at their reports, you will find that they took all sorts of photographs of other things. But not of human remains. It raises so many questions but answers none.

It actually makes the claims of multiple enormous pits full of the remains of thousands of people even less believable.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
— Herbert Spencer


NOTE: I am taking a leave of absence from revisionism to focus on other things. At this point, the ball is in their court to show the alleged massive pits full of human remains at the so-called "extermination camps." After 8 decades they still refuse to do this. I wonder why...

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Re: Simple challenge to bombsaway on alleged physical "evidence of a genocidal program"

Postby Hektor » 4 months 2 weeks ago (Thu Jan 19, 2023 2:36 am)

bombsaway wrote:No I think they just didn't take photos of the cremains they analyzed, nor proceed with their investigation in a way that would be appropriate for a criminal case.



So what is the value then of this investigation or the results of it?

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Re: Simple challenge to bombsaway on alleged physical "evidence of a genocidal program"

Postby borjastick » 4 months 2 weeks ago (Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:11 am)

That's just something I found very quickly. Ultimately there is no excuse. And cameras were cheap and widely available at the time. Also, if you look at their reports, you will find that they took all sorts of photographs of other things. But not of human remains. It raises so many questions but answers none.

It actually makes the claims of multiple enormous pits full of the remains of thousands of people even less believable.

And yet in the middle of a war the Germans investigated the mass murder of Polish soldiers etc in the Katyn forest and photographed it all. Odd how cameras only work for some people in some areas and never work for those in other areas yet the blame the German game carried on apace...
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: Simple challenge to bombsaway on alleged physical "evidence of a genocidal program"

Postby Hektor » 4 months 2 weeks ago (Thu Jan 19, 2023 8:10 am)

borjastick wrote:
That's just something I found very quickly. Ultimately there is no excuse. And cameras were cheap and widely available at the time. Also, if you look at their reports, you will find that they took all sorts of photographs of other things. But not of human remains. It raises so many questions but answers none.

It actually makes the claims of multiple enormous pits full of the remains of thousands of people even less believable.

And yet in the middle of a war the Germans investigated the mass murder of Polish soldiers etc in the Katyn forest and photographed it all. Odd how cameras only work for some people in some areas and never work for those in other areas yet the blame the German game carried on apace...

They also invited foreign observers to inspect those sites of Allied atrocities. But today it's "rather don't go there". It destroys the 'good war' narrative. And 'the Greatest Generation' myth so important to patriotards, cucks and American Exceptionalism.

An honest approach could still hold to an exterminationist hypothesis. But it would have to admit that the evidence for it is rather insufficient despite being researched for for decades. They rather pretend that the 'evidence is overwhelming', when in fact it isn't. Admitting to be duped for decades is never easy. Especially when what one was duped into is a myth one did use to justify all kinds of foolishness. Most of cultural Marxism relies on this, so do 'wars for democracy'. So rather pretend that the premises used for this were at least 'true' and persecute anybody that dares to challenge them.

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Re: Simple challenge to bombsaway on alleged physical "evidence of a genocidal program"

Postby bombsaway » 4 months 2 weeks ago (Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:06 pm)

Lamprecht wrote:That's extremely suspicious. Did they take photos of anything at all?
If so, why not take any photos of the alleged cremains? It seems like the most obvious thing to do.


Yeah they took some photos for Belzec and all the camps, but nothing of cremains, other than possibly in the shovel photos you posted earlier (I have no idea what ash looks like).

I don't know why they didn't take any photos of the ashes. Ultimately I think they had very little incentive to, and certain Jewish groups might sensitive to it.

In any case, I don't consider the AR camp studies to be proper 'exhumations' as outlined paper you quote, which still provides extenuating circumstances. Going by Kola's description at the beginning, his study at Belzec was conducted to help the museum set up the monument, so any archeological discoveries would be a secondary goal.

Ultimately I believe Kola's story and I don't know what else to say. I'll admit that a big part of it of my belief is that in terms of documentary and witnesses evidence, the revisionist case seems vastly weaker. If I felt the opposite, I'm sure I would be right alongside you guys.

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Re: Simple challenge to bombsaway on alleged physical "evidence of a genocidal program"

Postby Lamprecht » 4 months 2 weeks ago (Thu Jan 19, 2023 8:49 pm)

bombsaway wrote:Yeah they took some photos for Belzec and all the camps, but nothing of cremains, other than possibly in the shovel photos you posted earlier (I have no idea what ash looks like).

Human remains don't really turn into "ash" like in wood ash. There would be bits of bone and teeth for sure.
Also, photos have been taken of burnt/unburnt remains.

I don't know why they didn't take any photos of the ashes.

There are such photos.

Ultimately I think they had very little incentive to

No incentive? Well of course there is no incentive to provide any evidence whatsoever for allegations of mass extermination when it's illegal to question publicly.

certain Jewish groups might sensitive to it

Ridiculous. They also claim to be "sensitive" to "denial" -- going so far as getting it banned in many countries - when actually proving the existence of the pits would debunk "denial" outright.
It is extremely obvious that physical evidence is the most definitive. Everyone knows this. That's why we have nonsense like this:

Another Treblinka "Archaeologist"? William Mitchell claims to have "vital evidence to prove the deniers wrong"
viewtopic.php?t=13050

I tried to get this alleged "vital evidence" from Mitchell. No luck. No response at all. Maybe you can get it

In any case, I don't consider the AR camp studies to be proper 'exhumations' as outlined paper you quote, which still provides extenuating circumstances. Going by Kola's description at the beginning, his study at Belzec was conducted to help the museum set up the monument, so any archeological discoveries would be a secondary goal.

All 3 of the sites I brought up allegedly had "investigations" that supposedly proved the existence of mass graves.
Yet, apparently, you can't even make the case for 1 pit with even 1mg of human remains. Out of what, over 70? It's a bad look.

Ultimately I believe Kola's story and I don't know what else to say.

What story?

I'll admit that a big part of it of my belief is that in terms of documentary and witnesses evidence, the revisionist case seems vastly weaker. If I felt the opposite, I'm sure I would be right alongside you guys.

Yet you ignore that the documents consistently show that "Final Solution" was defined as resettlement/deportation, not extermination.
You also are ignoring the hierarchy of evidence, knowing full well that there is both documentary and testimonial evidence that supports the revisionist position and goes against the exterminationist narrative.
However, there is ZERO physical evidence that supports the exterminationist narrative (defined as, disproving the "deniers") -- even though, if the "Holocaust" story was true, there would be millions upon millions of pounds of physical evidence in the form of burnt remains, bones, teeth, etc in exactly known locations.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
— Herbert Spencer


NOTE: I am taking a leave of absence from revisionism to focus on other things. At this point, the ball is in their court to show the alleged massive pits full of human remains at the so-called "extermination camps." After 8 decades they still refuse to do this. I wonder why...

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Re: Simple challenge to bombsaway on alleged physical "evidence of a genocidal program"

Postby bombsaway » 4 months 2 weeks ago (Thu Jan 19, 2023 10:45 pm)

Lamprecht wrote:What story?


In his study https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/holocau ... t1174.html

he says “it was necessary to conduct archaeological research in order to thoroughly examine the topography of the former camp, so as to exclude areas with human remnants."

So in my mind he did not fail to prove remnants because he was not trying to prove their existence, but rather doing a service for the museum.

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Re: Simple challenge to bombsaway on alleged physical "evidence of a genocidal program"

Postby Jäger » 4 months 2 weeks ago (Fri Jan 20, 2023 4:27 pm)

Aren't there photos of heaps of ashes and bones littering the Treblinka camp post-44? Granted, that does not prove 700,000 people died, and you can't even prove the photos were taken AT Treblinka, but that would be true even if pits were dug up today--you couldn't take a photograph of that much ash in any case, and the provenance of the photos could always be doubted.

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Re: Simple challenge to bombsaway on alleged physical "evidence of a genocidal program"

Postby Lamprecht » 4 months 2 weeks ago (Fri Jan 20, 2023 11:57 pm)

bombsaway wrote:
Lamprecht wrote:What story?

In his study https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/holocau ... t1174.html

he says “it was necessary to conduct archaeological research in order to thoroughly examine the topography of the former camp, so as to exclude areas with human remnants."

So in my mind he did not fail to prove remnants because he was not trying to prove their existence, but rather doing a service for the museum.

Ah, yes, of course, a huge inconvenience to take just a modicum of additional effort to actually provide verifiable evidence for the existence of these alleged massive pits - or even just one of them...
And the other two sites as well? They didn't even try, we're just supposed to believe that they didn't try, that the pits are certainly there, and there's nothing suspicious at all about it?

Ultimately his published results are consistent with what revisionists claim and they are inconsistent with the exterminationists' conspiracy theory about the site, as explained previously.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
— Herbert Spencer


NOTE: I am taking a leave of absence from revisionism to focus on other things. At this point, the ball is in their court to show the alleged massive pits full of human remains at the so-called "extermination camps." After 8 decades they still refuse to do this. I wonder why...

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Re: Simple challenge to bombsaway on alleged physical "evidence of a genocidal program"

Postby Lamprecht » 4 months 2 weeks ago (Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:11 am)

Jäger wrote:Aren't there photos of heaps of ashes and bones littering the Treblinka camp post-44? Granted, that does not prove 700,000 people died, and you can't even prove the photos were taken AT Treblinka, but

Keep in mind there was a Treblinka 1 labor site.
You are welcome to try and answer the questions directed at the other poster

And this is what I found a couple of years back when I looked:

Photographs of mass graves from "Extermination camp" Treblinka II
viewtopic.php?t=13692

that would be true even if pits were dug up today--you couldn't take a photograph of that much ash in any case

Huge mass graves have certainly been photographed in the past.

and the provenance of the photos could always be doubted.

Indeed. Anything can be doubted. That's not a valid reason to refuse to provide such evidence. Actually, their refusal to show the alleged pits is what is causing the growing doubt about this event around the world; or, at least, it isn't helping.
Imagine being accused of mass murder in a court of law, and it is said you dumped a body in your back yard. And then your lawyer tells the prosecution to show the body, and they refuse on the basis of "you would just doubt it anyway."
It's kind of ridiculous. I posted a link in the OP detailing mass grave excavation guidelines that can be used to avoid this.
The problem is that these massive pits as claimed simply do not exist.
But if they did exist, then they could be shown to exist rather easily.

And it really would seal the deal. The "deniers" would be forever refuted. To date, not a single "huge mass grave" has ever been shown to exist that disproves so-called "Holocaust denial."
It just hasn't happened.
Yet the claim is that millions of pounds of physical evidence at so-called "extermination camps" exists in exactly known locations, right now. Apparently it has been there, in the exact same spots, for about 8 decades. Yet it still hasn't been shown to actually exist.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
— Herbert Spencer


NOTE: I am taking a leave of absence from revisionism to focus on other things. At this point, the ball is in their court to show the alleged massive pits full of human remains at the so-called "extermination camps." After 8 decades they still refuse to do this. I wonder why...

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Re: Simple challenge to bombsaway on alleged physical "evidence of a genocidal program"

Postby bombsaway » 4 months 1 week ago (Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:17 pm)

Lamprecht wrote:Human remains don't really turn into "ash" like in wood ash. There would be bits of bone and teeth for sure.


According to youtuber Alan Heath, who seems to mainly do RV reviews, bone fragments "absolutely litter the place here". This is through one of David Irving's tours I think, he interviews him as well.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxM9z7KaY3Y

Roberto Muehlenkamp from Holocaust Controversies also recorded a video where he shows a bone fragment close up around minute 15 https://youtu.be/n5Du2wULidU?t=985

more photos here https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/holocau ... t1782.html

So it seems at least a few photographs of alleged cremains exist.. What really stands out is that the gravesites (at least at the time) were accessible, even during excavations, and people were able to study the ground without problems. I looked into whether any revisionists had done any surveys. Richard Krege,  a revisionist archeologist, apparently spent 3 weeks at Treblinka with a GPR scanner (and was able to extract core samples!) and came out with seemingly incontrovertible evidence that there was no death camp there https://www.bitchute.com/video/yxM5cWNVyTAO/

Graf tells the entire story here. It seems he fundraised the expedition, and accompanied Krege to Treblinka and Belzec, where were able to study the sites "undisturbed"
http://vho.org/tr/2004/1/Graf97-101.html

Over the following days Krege worked tirelessly with his radar equipment, checking out every square meter of ground in the area of the alleged mass graves. Since buses with (frequently Israeli) Holocaust tourists arrived continuously, I was on tenterhooks throughout. Luckily the industrious activity of my companion caused no suspicion among the Holocaust pilgrims, and we left Treblinka without any awkward incidents. Krege returned to his home via Germany the following day, while my path led me further east – first to Lemberg (Lviv), in Ukraine, where I researched for several days in the local archive, then to on Moscow, and two months later to the Orient. But that is another story.

Richard Krege presented the initial results of his research, displayed on slides, at two conferences (in June 2001 in Washington and in January 2002 in Moscow). While the scans of Birkenau showed evidence of massive ground disturbances, strengthening support for the presence of an earlier mass grave, all traces of similar soil disturbances are missing in Treblinka and Belzec. The only logical conclusion is that these huge mass graves, containing up to one and a half million corpses (per Encyclopedia of the Holocaust: 870,000 in Treblinka and 600,000 in Belzec), never existed. This fact alone suffices to make the official version of the Holocaust collapse like a house of cards.


Yet Krege's work received no mention in the response to the Holocaust Controversies pdf, though it was brought up by HC

from the pdf:

MGK and other deniers have also shown a blatant double standard in their demands and elevation of archaeological evidence, while ignoring the obvious failure of Revisionists to publish Richard Krege’s report after allegedly conducting ground penetrating radar work at the Treblinka extermination camp. Krege is said to have first conducted preliminary investigations in October 1999, with more results gathered in 2000, when Graf accompanied Krege to Treblinka, Auschwitz-Birkenau, and Belzec.[300] Krege’s work was initially expected to be included with Mattogno and Graf’s book on Treblinka (first published in 2002), but apparently was delayed for the purpose of its own separate publication. This work, which Graf valued as possessing “special importance,” has still not appeared more than ten years after the alleged occurrence of the study, despite the publication of several other Revisionist works as well (ruling out publishing limitations).[301] In his articles, prior to discovering Kola’s 2001 Polish article on the work in the Sobibor camp, Thomas Kues several times declared that without such a public article in any language, the value of Kola’s archaeological work was deemed to be “highly questionable,” if worth anything at all.[302] Kues also took the liberty to suggest that Kola or his associates “delayed the publication of documentation in order to avoid critical scrutiny.” Of course, these comments are irrelevant as Kola did publish material on his archaeological work in the camp in 2001; however, would MGK accept similar comments regarding the failure of Krege to publish the results of his work, formerly partnered with their own?


So to sum up, after looking into the issue, I find the extreme skepticism regarding "physical evidence" to be even less warranted.  
In doing research for this thread I discovered: 

1) Kola's core samples from Belzec show lots of cremains, completely undercutting Mattogno's 'he found so few bodies' critique
2) The sites are littered with what appears to be crushed burned bones, and these have been photographed and video recorded. I could not find a response from revisionists about this. 
3) The sites were completely open to the public to snoop around, and even scan the ground with fancy looking equipment. Chelmno site appears to still be completely open.
4) Revisionist researchers studied the ground and failed to produce evidence supporting their position (GPR scans). Unlike Kola, they were by their own admission trying to prove a given narrative.  

PS It definitely bothered me to hear Muhlenkamp call revisionists liars and propagandists in his video. I don't think that's true, for the record. But I can tell he's also been hurt by the insults he gets.

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Re: Simple challenge to bombsaway on alleged physical "evidence of a genocidal program"

Postby Lamprecht » 4 months 1 week ago (Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:59 pm)

bombsaway wrote:
Lamprecht wrote:Human remains don't really turn into "ash" like in wood ash. There would be bits of bone and teeth for sure.


According to youtuber Alan Heath, who seems to mainly do RV reviews, bone fragments "absolutely litter the place here". This is through one of David Irving's tours I think, he interviews him as well.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxM9z7KaY3Y

Roberto Muehlenkamp from Holocaust Controversies also recorded a video where he shows a bone fragment close up around minute 15 https://youtu.be/n5Du2wULidU?t=985

more photos here https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/holocau ... t1782.html

So it seems at least a few photographs of alleged cremains exist.. What really stands out is that the gravesites (at least at the time) were accessible, even during excavations, and people were able to study the ground without problems. I looked into whether any revisionists had done any surveys. Richard Krege,  a revisionist archeologist, apparently spent 3 weeks at Treblinka with a GPR scanner (and was able to extract core samples!) and came out with seemingly incontrovertible evidence that there was no death camp there https://www.bitchute.com/video/yxM5cWNVyTAO/

Obviously we should expect human remains there, if "deniers" are correct. But not massive pits full of the remains of thousands or even 10s of thousands.

Image
Sorry but this just doesn't make much of a case for huge mass graves full of 100s of thousands. Consider the alternative which is a single-digit % died in transit, or upon arrival, or were even executed for various reasons (escape attempts, revolts, incurably sick, etc. It has been discussed).

The dispute is not whether any quantity at all of human remains is present. The dispute is whether or not the quantity is consistent with the claim of ~1.5 million or so being gassed and dumped into pits at T2/B/S.

So to sum up, after looking into the issue, I find the extreme skepticism regarding "physical evidence" to be even less warranted.  
In doing research for this thread I discovered: 

1) Kola's core samples from Belzec show lots of cremains, completely undercutting Mattogno's 'he found so few bodies' critique

Then you're ready to change your answers to the 10 questions?
Care to show us the largest pit ever found full of human remains at Treblinka 2, Sobibor, and/or Belzec? And it's estimated to contain what % of the total remains alleged? 0.1%? So there should be about 1,000 more just like it?

2) The sites are littered with what appears to be crushed burned bones, and these have been photographed and video recorded. I could not find a response from revisionists about this.

We should expect to find human remains. Can you show any pits with 0.1% of the 1.5m+? What about 0.01%?
3) The sites were completely open to the public to snoop around, and even scan the ground with fancy looking equipment. Chelmno site appears to still be completely open.

No, it's absolutely illegal to go digging around these sites.
4) Revisionist researchers studied the ground and failed to produce evidence supporting their position (GPR scans). Unlike Kola, they were by their own admission trying to prove a given narrative.  

Huh? Krege claims he didn't find anything, so there's nothing to publish there. Kola made that claim but it's rather obviously a ridiculous excuse. And you oddly only seem to focus on Kola when the other 2 camps listed have also been investigated.
Yet, not a single one of these investigations has produced verifiable evidence of a huge mass grave
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
— Herbert Spencer


NOTE: I am taking a leave of absence from revisionism to focus on other things. At this point, the ball is in their court to show the alleged massive pits full of human remains at the so-called "extermination camps." After 8 decades they still refuse to do this. I wonder why...

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Re: Simple challenge to bombsaway on alleged physical "evidence of a genocidal program"

Postby Hektor » 4 months 1 week ago (Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:39 am)

Just to be clear. The exterminationists had always opportunity to prove their case given access and resouces they had. But they didn't bother to do so. They found it sufficient to push their narrative. No hard evidence needed. There is sublime doubt in that. That they may find out that there isn't sufficient evidence to prove their case. The narrative is more important than being honest about what they can prove and what they can only allege.

A myth isn't about facts anyway, it is about the power a narrative has got in society.

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Re: Simple challenge to bombsaway on alleged physical "evidence of a genocidal program"

Postby bombsaway » 4 months 1 week ago (Sun Jan 29, 2023 4:55 am)

Lamprecht wrote:The dispute is not whether any quantity at all of human remains is present. The dispute is whether or not the quantity is consistent with the claim of ~1.5 million or so being gassed and dumped into pits at T2/B/S.


Lamprecht wrote:We should expect to find human remains. Can you show any pits with 0.1% of the 1.5m+? What about 0.01%?


Not just human remains, but burnt bone fragments, which is evidence of cremation and body destruction. Such fragments being found on the surface of these sites 80 years after the events in question, yes is consistent with their description in orthodox literature. I think this photographic evidence fulfills one of your requests (for at least 1 mg of human remains)  

Kola's core samples undercut Mattogno's argument, not yours. Mattogno does not make your argument as far as I can tell, instead taking Kola's findings at face value. So far no one here has taken up Mattogno's position. 

Lamprecht wrote:No, it's absolutely illegal to go digging around these sites.


Yes I suppose it is illegal, just like at any graveyard. But I never said that it wasn't, just that "the public could snoop around, and even scan the ground with fancy looking equipment". Though the bitchute video I posted said Krege took core samples, and according to Graf they were completely unmolested as they studied both Belzec and Treblinka.

Assuming the sites contain no mass graves, I would expect this secret (probably the greatest in modern times) to be safeguarded more closely.

Lamprecht wrote:Krege claims he didn't find anything, so there's nothing to publish there.


Where did you see such a claim? If there were no mass graves at this area, the GPR scans would have come up showing either no ground disturbance or disturbance consistent with sporadic digs of treasure hunters known to have occurred post war. Any results not indicating massive graves with clearly defined dimensions (GPR typically detects to depths of 18-24 feet https://www.gp-radar.com/article/gpr-ex ... %20to%208')

Krege definitively did say the GPR confirmed no mass graves, and even posted a scan http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Treblinka/IHRJ191000.html

Graf says regarding the scans: " Richard Krege presented the initial results of his research, displayed on slides, at two conferences (in June 2001 in Washington and in January 2002 in Moscow). While the scans of Birkenau showed evidence of massive ground disturbances, strengthening support for the presence of an earlier mass grave, all traces of similar soil disturbances are missing in Treblinka and Belzec. The only logical conclusion is that these huge mass graves, containing up to one and a half million corpses (per Encyclopedia of the Holocaust: 870,000 in Treblinka and 600,000 in Belzec), never existed. This fact alone suffices to make the official version of the Holocaust collapse like a house of cards." 

Given Mattogno and Graf (who funded Krege's study) give him no mention in further books, likely the scans indicated mass graves or Krege didn't know what he was doing.

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Re: Simple challenge to bombsaway on alleged physical "evidence of a genocidal program"

Postby Butterfangers » 4 months 1 week ago (Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:35 am)

bombsaway wrote:Not just human remains, but burnt bone fragments, which is evidence of cremation and body destruction. Such fragments being found on the surface of these sites 80 years after the events in question, yes is consistent with their description in orthodox literature. I think this photographic evidence fulfills one of your requests (for at least 1 mg of human remains)  

What you're describing is that items which are relatively easy to obtain [from literally anyone's dead relative(s)] have shown up at surface level of 'Holocaust' sites to which many thousands of tourists visit each year. It's a site for which a particular narrative has powerful political incentives for those who maintain said narrative. Much like the nail-scratches in the Auschwitz 'chambers', there's no doubt that [Jewish?] tourists are willing to add their own "flair" to alleged 'extermination' sites to add dramatic effect and to maintain the narrative. Please don't make me also dig up the numerous examples of Jews caught lying about the Holohoax so people "wouldn't forget". It's the same motive for the same act: deception.

Here are what cremains look like when your grandma goes to the oven (cremation), in today's world:

bones.png


But surely, Jews wouldn't ever fly allll the way out to the AR camps to sprinkle human cremains on the 'extermination' sites... would they?

Lol, yes they would:

ashes.png


All of these obvious problems with your assertion that a few scattered bone fragments = millions of dead Jews seems to suggest that, perhaps, you have not really thought this through.

bombsaway wrote:Kola's core samples undercut Mattogno's argument, not yours. Mattogno does not make your argument as far as I can tell, instead taking Kola's findings at face value. So far no one here has taken up Mattogno's position. 

Or, perhaps you misunderstand Mattogno's argument, which certainly seems to be the case in your suggesting that Kola's samples "undercut" anything at all. Mattogno, referring to Belzec in "The Operation Reinhard Camps" (TORC; p. 208):

On the other hand, when
it became a transit camp according to the revisionist thesis, at least 441,000
Jews passed through it. There undoubtedly occurred both natural and non-
natural deaths among them, the order of magnitude of which is difficult to es-
tablish. If one assumes with Dieter Pohl a mortality of some 5%,238 the death
toll would already be over 22,600.
This fact completely invalidates the orthodox commentators’ interpretation,
as it shows that the presence of human remains in the soil of the former Bełżec
Camp is not at all irreconcilable with the revisionist thesis. In order to truly re-
fute this thesis, it would be necessary to show that corpses in the order of mag-
nitude of hundreds of thousands are or were buried in the camp grounds.

https://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=28

The amount of human remains do not remotely account for claims of the "Holocaust". Out of 236 samples, only six were "positive" for human remains. Among these (TORC, p. 206-7):

...Pit No. 1 reportedly contains a layer of human remains of
indeterminate thickness. The presence of human remains is not documented by
the soundings for Pit No. 4. For Pit No. 10, human remains are present only in
three out of the seven samples published by Kola; since he says nothing about
the remaining nine, we have to limit ourselves to the reported data. In Pit No.
28, human remains were found in one out of three samples.
Therefore, the only legitimate conclusion that can be drawn from the core
samples is that the above-mentioned pits contain only scattered human re-
mains.


You keep repeating things like "substantial amounts of cremains" but you do not quantify these statements nor cite your source(s). It's confusing and I'm beginning to think you're just talking out of your behind.

1) Which specific core samples are you saying are confirmed to have had cremains identified?
2) Approximately how many human beings does the total mass of cremains you are saying have been identified amount to?
3) What significance do you ascribe to cremains in these quantities?

bombsaway wrote:Given Mattogno and Graf (who funded Krege's study) give him no mention in further books, likely the scans indicated mass graves or Krege didn't know what he was doing.


I added bold to your bullshit, above. The truth is, Krege simply wouldn't allow it to be published (ibid., ftn. 293):

Editor’s remark: Sturdy Colls’s remarks were probably aimed at a brief news article by Australian
engineer Richard Krege about his 1999 ground-penetrating-radar research at Treblinka as pub-
lished in a German-language revisionist magazine in 2000, which states (Krege, p. 63):
“The comparison of this [GPR] image with [GPR] images of areas where the soil is known to
be untouched and essentially free of disturbances shows that the radar images taken by the
Australians in the Treblinka Camp show an almost perfect soil untouched by man.”
However, Krege managed to scan only a small part of the former camp area. Due to a lack of
funding and time, he was unable to scan the rest of the camp. As a result, Krege refused to publish
his entire dataset, because he considered it highly incomplete and inconclusive. See Neumaier/
Rudolf, p. 505.


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