"A forensic anthropological study proving the holocaust happened"

[Eesti_mees]

A study relating to Sobibor was sent to me and I am not aware if this specific study has been addressed or not. Basically claims to show that Jews were systematically exterminated by the Germans. It is interesting because it claims that the artefacts found "could be rather classified as belongings of civilians." Is this evidence of Germans deliberately shooting Jewish civilians?
Link to the study:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.11 ... 21-02420-0

“the genetic analyses yielded confirmatory mtDNA and Y-chromosomal DNA haplotypes.

Full mitogenome sequences were obtained for all ten sets of remains (Additional File 1: Table S3). The sequences were assigned to haplogroups K1a1b1a (two individuals), K2a2a1 (two individuals), H3p, HV1b2, I1c1a, J1c14, V7a and X2b7 (each belonging to a single individual, Fig. ​Fig.1A).1A). We note that the remains S4 and S9 share the same mitogenome and could thus be maternally related. Eight of the ten control region (CR) mitotypes resulted in full matches in the mtDNA database EMPOP (, R13 (N = 38,361)) [13, 14]. All except one of those matches consisted of, or at least included, samples of known Ashkenazi origin (Additional File 1: Table S4). The mitotypes were also evaluated by contrasting the probabilities of the studied haplotypes in two populations of interest, namely Poles and modern Ashkenazi Jews (AJ).”

“seven mass graves, with the remains of camp victims, as well as five archaeological sites, located south of the mass graves, were discovered. One of them has been unambiguously determined as a relic of gas chambers… During the archaeological research, 22 graves were discovered. All were located within the area of Lager III/Camp III. Graves numbered 1–7 and 8/15 (Additional File 1: Fig. S1) were mass graves of cremation nature in the upper layer and of skeletal nature in the lower, where the remains of the victims showed signs of grave wax. Graves 9–11 and 17–20 were small cremation graves… As a significant observation, the layers of the burial pits were crossing the camp ground layers, namely dark sand (quite probably coming from time when the death camp was operating in 1942–1943) and grey sand (containing many burnt, crushed human bones). This last layer was most likely created as a result of the removal of remnants of burnt human remains in the area of above-ground crematoria,”

“The arrangement of the remains from grave 12 clearly indicates the disrespectful nature of the burial. The bodies were positioned in unnatural positions, as if having been thrown in, with legs curled up. It seems likely that the person buried in grave 13 had to first bury six people in grave 12 and later was also murdered and buried in the neighbouring grave. Next to almost all the remains, some pieces of fabrics, leather and other small items, such as buttons, knives, spoons, belt buckles and leather shoes, were found [indicating that the victims were civilians]”

“The localization of the entry wounds pointed to a systematic way of execution of the victims: shots (usually a single one) were aimed exclusively to the back of the head or near the neck.”

"Conclusions
The analyses of both the maternal and the paternal heritage of the ten unknown remains resulted for all the individuals in haplotypes that were at least very similar and, in some cases, even identical to the lineages observed in AJ. These genetic results, in combination with the non-genetic findings, such as artefact analysis and anthropological assessment, provide strong evidence that the Sobibór remains point at a Jewish origin of the victims, rather than the alternatively hypothesised European origin. In the light of these results, the prosecutor of the Institute of National Remembrance in Lublin, who incited the identification process, ordered the reburial of the remains. Following Jewish rite, the ceremony was led by a Rabbi and the victims were buried in separate graves at the places of their discovery."

What is your input on this specific study?

[Hektor]

Sorry, but before I look deeper into that. Why do they go to such length to try to prove that 'the Holocaust Happened'. I mean why move to rather obnoxious methods and arguments there.


If you want to prove that there were 500.000 people killed at a place, show us the remains. Plain and simple. Then you don't have to design ridiculous arguments with this sort of mental acrobatics.


10 corpses were of Jews at a place where Jews were in Labor camps? No shit. Sherlock.

Did you expect that nobody would die during world war two?

[Whodunnit?]

The first sentence is

"Six million Jews were killed by Nazi Germany and its collaborators during World War II."

So this is the introduction. In the introduction, you write what your work is about. There you go.

Besides of that: there's nothing to disprove here. Over the years, revisionists have brought forth people with expert knowledge in gas chamber-construction, cremation, other sorts of engineers, chemists, historians, witnesses including concentration camp-inmates - now you'd need a geneticist who could do a comparative analysis. I'm afraid nobody will be available, and even if you'd find somebody, the problem is that the bones have already been re-buried under jewish rites, and that means that the graves have to remain untouched.

So, what do you expect? You can just nitpick around this newest "evidence".

[Hektor]

Indeed the advantage for the story-tellers with this approach is that it forms a high hanging fruit. You'd need a geneticist to do investigation and write a report (rather expensive, I'd guess) and then you'd need access to the remains to take samples, etc. Not gonna happen easily. And probably no finding will be concisely disproven neither... Just open to interpretation, perhaps.

But it yielded another journal-article with affirmed Holocaust claims somewhere in the text. That's how the gas lighting propaganda works. And it has the appearance of 'science' as well. Even a 'natural science', since it deals with molecules and genetics. I'm of the opinion that there are problems with genetical proves, but most people think that it is 'exact science' since it's done in a lab. Well, it isn't science but applied technology happening there. Science is about establishing causal relationships how they work and what they do. Most things that go by a science label are application of technology that may or may not use knowledge from fields classifiable as science. And a lot of stuff that is just expert opinion extrapolated into untestable spheres is also called frequently science, when it actually isn't.

That said: What would ten remains at a site that was a transit/labor camp in the past mean. It's even possible that this wasn't even related to the facility at all. Yeah, know... this was world war two with a lot of fighting and dying for all kinds of reasons.

[borjastick]

A dozen or so bodies in a labour/transit camp during a war no matter what origin/race/religion they are proves absolutely nothing least of all that the holocaust happened.

As said above the simplest way to prove mass murder happened would be to show the bodies or solid evidence. They have not done so.

Then the painful and frankly embarrassing dna profiles trying to show these people were poor poor joos who must have died in an unconscionable manner is typical of our friends in the Holy Land trying ever so slightly too hard to be the corpse at every funeral, the bride at every wedding.

And even though I am a sole voice in the wind I will say it again, if they are ashkenazis they ain't jews.

[EtienneSC]

A study relating to Sobibor was sent to me and I am not aware if this specific study has been addressed or not. [.....]
What is your input on this specific study?

The study dates from 2021 so it could only be mentioned in very recent work. I'm not aware of any relevant revisionist comments. The archaeological research that the article mentions led by Andrzej Kola is discussed by Mattogno et al, e.g. in Sobibor: Holocaust Propaganda and Reality (Castle Hill, 2010) and The "Extermination Camps" of Aktion Reinhard (2013). There are several editions of Sobibor. Kola has also been discussed on this forum:
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=11276
Some of the graves mentioned in the study scarcely appear to be "mass graves, e.g:

In grave 12, which measured 1.90 by 1.90 m and was 0.80 m deep, six people were buried. Grave 13, which was located near grave 12, was much shallower and only contained one person’s remains.

Others are larger, according to the descriptions. Deaths by shooting are not a major part of the received narrative. Shots to the back of the head are an NKVD execution method - which is not to say that that is what happened here. The following sentence from the article reflects the revisionist view:

Evidence supporting the functioning of the extermination camp in Sobibór is scarce and only based on a few testimonies of Ukrainian and German guards, as well as a few prisoners who succeeded in escaping from the camp

However, the revisionist view adds that the prisoner testimonies are propagandistic in nature and the that statements from the Germans were given under duress and hence both are unreliable.

You can see the method of the study from the first sentence and introductory paragraph, namely to incorporate a little original research into the expected narrative without questioning the fundamentals of the story. This is a little different from the work of Sturdy-Colls at Treblinka, where she conceded that it might be necessary to "manage expectations". We should obviously be grateful for such factual studies.

[hermod]

“ five archaeological sites, located south of the mass graves, were discovered. One of them has been unambiguously determined as a relic of gas chambers… ”

Anything can be unambiguously determined as a [add what best suits your wishes, beliefs or needs] when you call "deniers" all the people disagreeing with you...

This is what a "study" looks like in Holohoaxers' echo chamber...

The Treblinka Archeology Hoax

[fireofice]

To me, this looks like good evidence against the extermination camp thesis. None of these Jews were gassed. They were all shot. So we have a dozen or so Jews that were shot, not cremated, and dumped into some pits at this camp. As borjastick stated, none of this is unexpected. They were probably considered troublemakers, something like stirring up resistance against the Nazi government. If this was a place where Jews were gassed, why not just gas them with all the other Jews? And why didn't they cremate the remains of these Jews that were shot but did so for all the other ones? This is all very odd under the official story.

The paper mentions an earlier thesis that these people were killed by Soviets due to the method of execution. Of course, the mere fact that they were Jews doesn't exclude the possibility that they were killed by the Soviets. It's not like Jews were never killed by the Soviet regime.

[Hektor]

To me, this looks like good evidence against the extermination camp thesis. None of these Jews were gassed. They were all shot. So we have a dozen or so Jews that were shot, not cremated, and dumped into some pits at this camp. As borjastick stated, none of this is unexpected. They were probably considered troublemakers, something like stirring up resistance against the Nazi government. If this was a place where Jews were gassed, why not just gas them with all the other Jews? And why didn't they cremate the remains of these Jews that were shot but did so for all the other ones? This is all very odd under the official story.

The paper mentions an earlier thesis that these people were killed by Soviets due to the method of execution. Of course, the mere fact that they were Jews doesn't exclude the possibility that they were killed by the Soviets. It's not like Jews were never killed by the Soviet regime.

Since Jews were over-proportionally represented in the functional elites of the Soviet Empire, it is only too plausible that they'd be part of the targets of purges, then. Not all Jews went along with Marxism-Leninism neither. And for the 'extermination camp' thesis. This was just too convenient for the Soviets and Communist at the time. They finally had a distraction from their own atrocities. No wonder, they'd be pushing this narrative over and over again. Meanwhile it is induced in the 'common sense' of people. Meaning people just assume it to be true, even when it has never been proven to them. Transit camps were the go to location to claim genocide there. People were transported there and for the observers "never seen again" afterwards. However it is quite preposterous to assume that people you've 'never seen again afterwards' were exterminated. But this is how the 'logic' of dimwits does work. They find it logical to assume that somebody you've never seen again, must have been exterminated, gassed, cremated, etc. The 'never seen again' is of course not the root stimulus to think so. It's the omnipresence of those claims in media followed by conversations, if the subject comes up... The "But I've seen it on TV" and "That history professor told us".

But well. If 100.000s were gassed at a camp during world war two. You won't have to be convinced by 'asking where they went'. You'd be able to find plenty of remains of that kind of extermination project. That would easily settle the question of a massive figure of people being killed here. Some ditched corpses somewhere in the surrounding wouldn't even be a go-to argument there.

And yes, I deem it perfectly possible that during operation by NS-Germany that there were people executed as well. Nothing strange about it. After all, they viewed the Germans as enemy and Jews are taught from childhood to hate the Goyim, especially Edom and Amalek (which according to some traditions is Germany). Now not all Jews are 'religious' of course. In the traditional sense that is, but one can also secularize believe systems. Edom and Amalek can then easily become Fascists and Nazis. And as I've pointed out previously the term "Nazi" has resemblance with Nas/zir, which is the Hebrew word for regent/prints and sounds like a short for Nazarenes, which was a name for Christians. And that's of course something Judaists, even the secularized ones hate with a passion. This preprograms conflicts.

[tyger]

The use of wood in funerary pyres: results of excavations of bronze and iron age burial sites in Poland. This provides a perfect compare and contrast with Sturdy Coll's "scientific" technique.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... via%3Dihub

[Hektor]

The use of wood in funerary pyres: results of excavations of bronze and iron age burial sites in Poland. This provides a perfect compare and contrast with Sturdy Coll's "scientific" technique.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... via%3Dihub

That there is no evidence for what is alleged (and now shrined) on Treblinka is all to obvious. But this is where the superstition kicks in. Since the Nazis were so diabolically evil, they of course had magical powers, which explains any absence of evidence. "It was possible with the German Method".

Ultimately all this 'newer research' on alleged 'extermination camps' proves that the Revisionists were right from the beginning. But of course that can't be admitted. It can't be admitted that one was wrong, actually pretty dumb, and that those one loathed, disparaged and even persecuted were right. The only thing that helps them right now is the general dumbing down since the 1960s and that education is designed to produce procedure followers and regurgitators. This lack of thinking capacity and vigor is what my main concern is.

[Hydra]

What the the point of this article? What the hell is this even supposed to prove? They found 10 skeletons, tested DNA to see their Jews, and determined they were executed by gunshot. Ok that's ten bodies down, 5,999,990 left to go to prove the "Holocaust". These "mass graves" don't really shape up to what the people that "discover" them hope. Because it's really just a trick, when most people think of a "mass grave" they think of a massive swimming pool sized pit in the ground with a conveyer belt of Nazis loading off bodies from a truck and handing them over one by one and tossing them in filling up huge craters with 1,000s of bodies at a time. When in reality it's a group of morons digging up a cemetery in rural Poland and finding a handful of bone fragments and claiming they "discovered a mass grave" like a kid in his back yard digging up sharp rocks and claiming he found arrow heads. It's retarded

[Hektor]

If you demand 'six million' bodies, this will trigger the response that 'you're demands for evidence are unreasonable'. I'm not demanding 'six million bodies'... My demand is that they present something that one reasonably can conclude for that mass executions in the form they allege did take place. And nothing they show does support the conclusion they suggest aggressively in anyway. Camps and evidence of people actually dying there, may not contradict the Holocaust Thesis, but it doesn't support it neither. It's for sure not a better explanation than the Revisionist thesis about those camps.


And well. They never could offer a single corpse showing the signs of being gassed to a panel that would scrutinize what they claim. And the made up atrocity stories as well as thumb-sucked figures are a fact as well. So, sorry nothing they say in terms special to their thesis and different from what Revisionists say is believable.

[curioussoul]

A dozen or so bodies in a labour/transit camp during a war no matter what origin/race/religion they are proves absolutely nothing least of all that the holocaust happened.

As said above the simplest way to prove mass murder happened would be to show the bodies or solid evidence. They have not done so.

Then the painful and frankly embarrassing dna profiles trying to show these people were poor poor joos who must have died in an unconscionable manner is typical of our friends in the Holy Land trying ever so slightly too hard to be the corpse at every funeral, the bride at every wedding.

And even though I am a sole voice in the wind I will say it again, if they are ashkenazis they ain't jews.

Revisionists have admitted for decades that thousands of Jews most likely died in the Reinhardt camps and were buried there. Therefore, bodies of Jews and Poles in these camps (with bullet wounds!) do not prove gassings or mass extermination.

The most striking aspect of this "study" is that it claims that Kola's archeological investigation uncovered relics that are "unambiguously" considered to be the remains of a gas chamber, but even Kola's own colleague admitted that no trace of any gas chamber was conclusively found. In fact, the building remains were completely at odds with witness testimony and the modern Holocaust narrative on Sobibor (size/materials/location, etc). In addition, at least one building thought to be in the correct vicinity of the purported gas chamber was proven to be an old garage.

What truly annoys me about these shallow Holocaust historians is that they have very limited knowledge of the facts and will often lie in order to establish the necessary foundations for their own "study".