The Numbers Game

[Thames Darwin]

I'm thinking the numbers game isn't really worth playing, nor is it necessary due to the lack of a reliable way to count jews. There is a 1921 census stat for Polish jews. I have no idea if it is accurate or not, it gets tossed around in holocaust literature. In 1921 there were allegedly 2,845,364 Jews in Poland. Less than 20 years later there were up to 3.5 million Jews in Poland? That's a little suspicious.

It depends on what you're calling "Poland", doesn't it? If the number from 1921 is the 1921 borders, then it really depends on when the 3.5 million figure was devised. If it was 1939 before the war started, then it's only a growth rate of around 1%. If it's after Wartheland and Silesia were annexed back to the Reich, then it's definitely suspicious, unless it's after these Jews were resettled east. It really depends. But usually it's an apples to oranges comparison, which is automatically suspect.

When the Soviets deported Poles to Kazakhstan, were there any Jews among them?

Who do you think was in charge of the deportations?

[Balsamo]

Just to remind you that there were a more accurate Polish census hold in 1931...

[Thames Darwin]

And how many Red Sea Pedestrians were counted then?

[scythian]

And how many Red Sea Pedestrians were counted then?

According to unreliable wikipedia there were 2,822,501 jews in the 1931 Polish census :
http://knsl.net/23664

The article cites the actual records as a source, but this is wikipedia so you never know. The Polish Genealogy Project says the census results aren't available online. The alleged 1931 total is less than the alleged 1921 total. 2,822,501 in 1931 and 3.5 million in 1938? In seven years? No growth in ten years, and then a growth rate of over 3% in seven? And like you said, it depends on what you consider Poland. The Polish Genealogy Project says the Germans carried out a 1943 census which I can't find any records of. I don't know if that means territory annexed or the General Government. How did they come up with the 1938 estimate (up to 3.5 million)?

[Thames Darwin]

I don't think the Reich would have counted the Wartheland or Silesia in such a census. They might not have even counted the Bialystok district since it was administered differently. Big chunks east of the Curzon line had been allotted to different Reichskommissariats, Ukraine and Ostland. I would expect that it was the Generalgouvernement only. Which would explain why it was a lower population if it even was lower. For instance, Litzmannstadt would not have been counted in such a census in 1943 and the Jews there hadn't been resettled east yet. It also wouldn't include any Jews in Auschwitz since that was in Silesia.

Nevertheless I suspect we don't have this 1943 census because it would hurt the industry.

[Kingfisher]

A census in 1943? Is there any real evidence for this? Surely everyone involved had somewhat higher priorities around that time.

[Balsamo]

No census in 1943, but regular counting of the Ghetto's population did take place.
as for the Polish census of 1931, the main objective of the Polish government was not to harm the Polish culture after the annexion of eastern territories, that had reduced the Polish majority to to like 62-65%, it has not only affected the Jews, but also the ukrainians and many other majority.
Another counting would be held in 1936,i think, as part of their Jewish policy and their "solution of the Jewish problem". Sorry, most of my links are gone, so i speak from memory in this quick reply.

But it should not be that important. Census in general are reliable ( as a minimum presence of a minority), the problem is to keep tracks with those population between the census, especially when times are rough.

[Hannover]

Balsamo:

But it should not be that important. Census in general are reliable ( as a minimum presence of a minority), the problem is to keep tracks with those population between the census, especially when times are rough.

Not so. Especially, as has been covered, Jews are instructed by Jewish law to avoid being counted.

- Hannover

[Thames Darwin]

Do you realize the reason the Book of Numbers is called that is because it describes a census?

[The Warden]

But it should not be that important. Census in general are reliable ( as a minimum presence of a minority), the problem is to keep tracks with those population between the census, especially when times are rough.

Absolutely one of the most ridiculous statements I've read on this site.

Are you implying that counting Jews (hard enough to do as it is) in ghettos (poor people who couldn't care less about being counted for some government checklist) was easy as 1, 2, 3? More off is the idea that the only difficult part was keeping track of people in between. There's no way they could keep track of them during the counts; Why would they be able to keep track of them in between the counts?

Balsamo is basically stating the term "herding cats" is a misunderstood cliche.

[Balsamo]

But it should not be that important. Census in general are reliable ( as a minimum presence of a minority), the problem is to keep tracks with those population between the census, especially when times are rough.

Absolutely one of the most ridiculous statements I've read on this site.

Are you implying that counting Jews (hard enough to do as it is) in ghettos (poor people who couldn't care less about being counted for some government checklist) was easy as 1, 2, 3? More off is the idea that the only difficult part was keeping track of people in between. There's no way they could keep track of them during the counts; Why would they be able to keep track of them in between the counts?

Balsamo is basically stating the term "herding cats" is a misunderstood cliche.

Re-reading the statement, i agree...

But what is the point of using some religious laws. Do you think that the nationalist AS regime of Poland would care of what is acceptable to Jews or not? Counting Jews in a census was not an difficult task, about half of them spoke only yiddish, most lived gathered in cities, in their traditional quarter. They wore distinctive dresses, went to the synagogue, etc. In a Census you are counted whether you like it or not.
What i wanted to stress is that the Polish census was held in a context of assimilation of new annexed territories, therefore, the Polish government did everything it could to downplay the size of the new national minorities, especially in those southeastern new territories. It affected the counting of Jews, BUT also of ukrainians, etc.
In this sense, if the Government admits the presence of 2.880.000 Jews, this should be considered as a minimum.
In reality, this census focused more on the language to define the "nationality", Jews who spoke perfectly Polish were indeed counted as Poles, others who spoke a ukranian dialect, and were indeed of ukranian origine, were not counted as Ukranians, but put in a new cathegory called "Local", undefined...their number reach 700.000 !!!!
It is now accepted that the number of Polish Jews in 1931 reached around 3.100.000, and that Ukrainians and Russians were 3% more than counted in the census and represented 20% of the population, and not 17%.

Now knowing how many Jews were in Poland in 1939 is only a matter of approximation and should be regarded as such.
How many managed to reach the east before getting caught by the Germans, also...estimates go from 50 to 500.000... again a big ?
How many of them would be caught again after June 41 ? Again a big ?

And when i said

the problem is to keep tracks with those population between the census, especially when times are rough.

That meant that it was almost impossible to do so...

But there is another point, German did not have the same definition of what is a Jew...So this makes things even more complex.

[borjastick]

The purpose of starting this thread was to see if I have been missing something and to ascertain if there were absolutes in terms of the European jewish population before the war.

What is clear from all the interesting comments posted here is that there is no such absolute. In fact there is nothing even close to a precise figure of Jews being in and around europe before or during the war. As such when I read precise figures posted in journals, reports and such like showing actual figures down to the very last jew killed in the holocaust I am now more confident than ever they are fake, hoax, flawed, rigged and without credit. They simply cannot possibly know any such figures. In fact they cannot know a figure to start with yet alone a figure to end with and as such arrive at a statistically correct total.

[The Warden]

But there is another point, German did not have the same definition of what is a Jew...So this makes things even more complex.

I don't see how there's anything complex about it. Even if the Poles counted the Jews more accurately than anyone has ever seen before during one census, the fact the herd was moving from one area to another and beyond means unless those same Poles counted those same Jews, none of the data is reliable from one census to the next.

[Hannover]

Thames Darwin brought this up in another thread, but it refers to this thread, Canadian conference tackles holocaust denial
so here it is.

- Hannover

Some big factors in counting Jews:

Due to Jewish law, many Jews refuse to be counted.

I asked you this before but you never answered:

scythian @ The Numbers Game

What's to answer? Your Book of Numbers is just more embarrassing Jewish religious nonsense, but even it refutes your notion that counts of Jews are somehow reliable. Here you go, from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Numbers

God orders Moses, in the wilderness of Sinai, to number those able to bear arms—of all the men "from twenty years old and upward," and to appoint princes over each tribe. 603,550 Israelites are found to be fit for military service. In chapter 26, a generation later and after approximately forty years of wandering the desert, the Lord orders a second census. 601,730 men are counted.

The tribe of Levi is exempted from military service and therefore not included in the census totals

IOW, only men able to bear arms were to be counted, and besides that an entire tribe was not to be counted at all. But hey, you brought it up.

Perhaps you should have read this from that thread:
To actually count Jews directly is forbidden (Talmud, Yoma 22b), as the prophet says: "And the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which shall neither be measured nor counted."

- Hannover

[borjastick]

All the above supports my theory that there are tens of millions more jews in the world than we are led to believe. The idea is that the jews are few in number and so observant that they cannot and do not reproduce with non tribists, and at a much lower rate than the typical average growth rate. This way we can always be told they are a threatened minority and on the back foot having been so abused throughout history.

We all know that many many jews assimilated, read disappeared, into the hinterland of the real world by changing their names. How many times have you been surprised that someone called Underwood, Wilson or Miliband actually turns out to be jewish? I think it is all part of a grand plan to take control.

I now do not see the holocaust as an isolated, unique historical event but part of the modern day Crusades to bring about a controlling and dominant force in the Arab centre of the middle east. The holocaust is the single most important component in the war against Islam by the lunatic fundamental Christians in the US. They may hate Jews but they adore Israel as it represents the very heart of their own Christian beliefs.

My own reading is that of course there were not six million jewish killed in the holohoax, moreover the hoards of these people spread quietly throughout the world over the last hundred years. Many have differing views on the interpretation in daily life of being jewish and how their group is closer to the centre than any other, but they are far more numerous than we are told. Being jewish is their driving and binding force. If you think Muslims hate us more than any other group think again.