Wannsee Conference minutes debunked

[Reviso]

And there is one more peculiarity in this sentence. um ... nach dem Osten transportiert zu werden."

It should either be "um ... nach Osten transportiert zu werden", here "Osten" - east - merely stands for the direction of travel or "um ... in den Osten transportiert zu werden.", here Osten - east - stands for the destination of travel.

"nach dem Osten" is not correct. The "Duden" states that this expression is used "landschaftlich", i.e. in the vernacular. If he had written this in an exam in school, it would have been marked as a mistake.

https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/na ... edeutung1c

In Comptes Rendus Du Congrès International de Géographie Amsterdam 1938, one can read :
"zu weit nach dem Osten". There are other examples here :

https://books.google.be/books?id=RDMVAA ... 22&f=false

R.

[Pia Kahn]

Sorry R, but German school teachers to not correct papers in German on the basis of some obscure French book on geography called "Comptes Rendus Du Congrès International de Géographie Amsterdam 1938,"

German school teachers correct German papers on the basis of the Duden, because "The Duden has become the preeminent language resource of the German language, stating the definitive set of rules regarding grammar, spelling and use of German language."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duden

That's what I quoted.

[Reviso]

Sorry R, but German school teachers to not correct papers in German on the basis of some obscure French book on geography called "Comptes Rendus Du Congrès International de Géographie Amsterdam 1938,"

German school teachers correct German papers on the basis of the Duden, because "The Duden has become the preeminent language resource of the German language, stating the definitive set of rules regarding grammar, spelling and use of German language."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duden

That's what I quoted.

There are other examples here (I made a mistake when I gave the link) :
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q ... m+Osten%22

It seems that German evolved since the time of the Protocol.
R.

[Pia Kahn]

"It seems that German evolved since the time of the Protocol."

No. The expression is and has been grammatically wrong. That's what the standard texbook on German grammar tells you.

Mind you, but you will find thousands of times the expression "ain't" online. It is nevertheless not correct English.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ain%27t

https://www.google.de/search?q=ain%27t& ... 80&bih=915

Does that mean that "English has evolved since the time of the protocol"? No, This is pure fantasy on your part and unreasonable just as unreasonable as the jew who is simultaneously marching to the east and building a road. That's wrong.

[Reviso]

"It seems that German evolved since the time of the Protocol."

No. The expression is and has been grammatically wrong. That's what the standard texbook on German grammar tells you.

Yes ? Did you read in a standard textbook that the expression "nach dem Osten" was already wrong in the time of the Protocol (let us say : in the years 1940-1945) ? Can you quote a textbook that tells this ?
But, so what ? We see by Google Books that many serious books contain "nach dem Osten". Do you infer that these books are false ?
R.

[Reviso]

By the way, what is "landschaftlich", according to Duden, is to use "nach (dem)" instead of "zu … hin" or instead of "in". They don't say that it is "landschaftlich" to use "nach dem (Osten)" instead of "nach (Osten)".
R.

[Pia Kahn]

By the way, what is "landschaftlich", according to Duden, is to use "nach (dem)" instead of "zu … hin" or instead of "in". They don't say that it is "landschaftlich" to use "nach dem (Osten)" instead of "nach (Osten)".
R.

Really? Let me quote:

landschaftlich:

"nach dem (in den) Süden fahren"

Replace Süden with Osten und you've got the exact same phrase. Nach dem Osten is thus used instead of the correct expression in den Osten. The words in the brackets tell you how it should be said.

Then, explain to the interested reader what "landschaftlich" means in the context of grammar. Thank you!

[Reviso]

By the way, what is "landschaftlich", according to Duden, is to use "nach (dem)" instead of "zu … hin" or instead of "in". They don't say that it is "landschaftlich" to use "nach dem (Osten)" instead of "nach (Osten)".
R.

Really? Let me quote:

landschaftlich:

"nach dem (in den) Süden fahren"

Replace Süden with Osten und you've got the exact same phrase. Nach dem Osten is thus used instead of the correct expression in den Osten. The words in the brackets tell you how it should be said.

You truncated the quotation. Here is what you hid :

Bedeutungen, Beispiele und Wendungen
1. a (...)
b (...)
c. zu … hin, in
Grammatik
räumlich
Gebrauch
landschaftlich
Beispiele
nach dem (in den) Süden fahren
nach (zur) Oma gehen

Thus, clearly, what is "landschaftlich" is to use "nach" instead of "zu ... hin" or instead of "in". There is no comment about the "dem".
R.

[Pia Kahn]

What a comment. You do not understand the Duden.

[Reviso]

It is possible that I misinterpreted the Duden article, sorry for this and for the "snarky" tone. But, again : We see by Google Books that many serious books contain "nach dem Osten". Should we infer that these books are false ?
R.

[Werd]

Whereas "building roads" in my mind is an activity that they perform,

Agreed. For English and German.

it does not represent a state they are in.

An English speaker may talk like that in a poetic sense. But a German government official would not write German that way. Reviso said:

For me, the meaning is clear : the Jews will be led to these areas while building roads.

If you clean it up in English by adding the word "while" it makes grammatical sense in English. Adding "while" helps us figure out that Jews are performing an activity. But DOES THAT REFLECT THE ORIGINAL GERMAN? Does the original German have an equal to "while" which would make road building an activity? Or does the original German have it more seem like a state of being? If the way it is written in German can ONLY make grammatical sense in a poetic way of them being in a state of building roads or in a state of road building, and that IS NOT proper German written by educated German government officials, THEN WE HAVE A PROBLEM. Now I understand what Pia meant one page ago:

"Stop quote mining:

Could it mean we have a huge mass of Jews moving East with some stopping to do work to build roads,..."

No, it cannot mean that because it means that the jews are in the state of building roads.

Pia, I have another problem to ask you about:

If it is a forgery of an original, or an outright fake made by Kempner or someone close to him, it is a terrible job. There is nothing explicit in there about a physical extermination conspiracy. So why wouldn't that stuff be in there? I feel like Kempner would have known better. This is why some revisionists believe it is authentic, say it proves nothing sinister and just move on. Kempner grew up in Germany but later moved to America. Did he have someone who spoke English first, and German second fake this document for him? Do you think he was part of a team that was not only selecting documents convenient for them, but also creating some?

[Callahan]

Hello ladies and gentlemen,

I hope I'm not bringing up something that's already been discussed here but the Wannsee Conference topic is something I've had relatively little engagement with, considering how often it is referenced as evidence of the Holocaust... While reading some literature recently, I had a question about the following quote:

In the course of the final solution and under approriate [sic] direction, the Jews are to be utilized for work in the East in a suitable manner. In large labor columns and separated by sexes, Jews capable of working will be dispatched to these regions to build roads, and in the process a large number of them will undoubtedly drop out by way of natural attrition. Those who ultimately should possibly get by will have to be given suitable treatment because they unquestionably represent the most resistant segments and therefore constitute a natural elite that, if allowed to go free, would turn into a germ cell of renewed Jewish revival. (Witness the experience of history.)

Emphasis added. Can someone who reads the original German tell me, does this term "drop out" necessarily imply death? I began to wonder if it may refer to their simply 'dropping out' of the road construction program (due to injury, etc.) and no longer being considered fit for the project, then perhaps being sent to another location, camp, etc., with the less abled populations. Is this reasonable?

[Hannover]

Callahan, you really need to read this thread. Well worth your time.

- Hannover

[Reviso]

John Wear wrote about the Wannsee Protocol in this year's Inconvenient History, No. 2:
https://inconvenienthistory.com/14/2/8192

May I point out that he does not say a word about the alleged German mistakes that the Protocol would contain?
(See my discussions with Pia Kahn above. Borjastick said that I was "anal" in this discussion.))