official documents mentioning reinhardt camps?

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official documents mentioning reinhardt camps?

Postby curioussoul » 6 months 2 weeks ago (Sun Nov 20, 2022 7:01 pm)

hi, i'm new to the forum but have followed revisionist research for many years.

i was reading Christopher Browning's book about the Reichsbahn and found the very last section of the book extremely interesting. he translates a number of rare documents i've never seen mentioned before. the following is the most interesting one, because it survives only in a romanian copy supposedly translated from german and written by a certain Bruno Klemm during a train conference in berlin on the 26th and 28th of september 1942 regarding evacuations from the general government and deportations of romanian jews into the general government. here is Browning's translation into english:

Agenda:
1. The evacuation of 600,000 Jews of the General Government.
2. The dispatching of 280,000 Romanian Jews into the General Government.

EVACUATION OF POLISH JEWS

To point 1) Urgent transports, proposed by the Chief of Security Police and SD [Security Service], namely:

2 trains per day from the district of Warsaw to Treblinka
1 train per day from the district of Radom to Treblinka
1 train per day from the district of Kraków to Bełzec and
1 train per day from the district of Lemberg to Bełzec

must be carried out with 200 freight cars, that have already been made available for this purpose by the General Directorate of the Eastern Railroad in Kraków [Generaldirektion der Ostbahn in Krakau], insofar as this is feasible.

After the completion of the restoration of the Lublin–Chełm line, probably on or after 1 November 1942, the other urgent transports can also be
carried out, namely:

1 train per day from the district of Radom to Sobibór
1 train per day from the northern region of the district of Lublin to Bełzec and
1 train per day from the central region of the district of Lublin to Sobibór

insofar as this is feasible and the required number of freight cars is available. It must be assumed that after the reduction of potato transports the Main Car Allocation Office [Hauptwagenamt] will have the possibility to assign to the General Directorate of the Eastern Railroad in Kraków the
additional cars that are necessary for these trains, so that the desired train traffic proposed here can be completed by the end of the year.

DEPORTATION OF ROMANIAN JEWS

To point 2) the Romanian railway [representatives] telegraphed on the day of the conference that they could not attend the conference for technical reasons and asked for the conference to be postponed. The conference that took place without the representatives of the Romanian railway produced the following results. The departure station in Romania for the special trains is Adjud on the Ploesti-Cernautzi line, the border station with the General Government is Sniatyn [Śniatyn], the destination is Bełzec. It is envisaged that a special train, composed of 50 freight cars and one passenger car (for the escort personnel) for the transport of 2,000 people, shall run every second day. In order to avoid that it returns empty, German covered freight cars that are already in Romania or will arrive there will be used. The general representative of the German railway in Bucharest, together with the Romanian railway, will be requested to arrange that the cars for carrying out the transports will be made available, though probably somewhat later than originally intended, in agreement with T.K. Bucharest [Transportkommando Bucharest?] and WTL Süd Ost [Wehrmachttransportleitung or Military Transport Directorate South East?]. The handover of the special trains by the C. F. R. [Romanian national railway] will be carried out punctually on the transportation days, in agreement with the General Directorate of the Ostbahn in Kraków, so that they can depart from Sniatyn in the direction of Lemberg at 1:03.

Klemm


this very much piqued my interest because you very rarely belzec, sobibor and treblinka mentioned together and so explicitly in a singular document, if ever. i know there are a few other rare examples, such as when Himmler himself calls treblinka a transit camp in a certain document (don't ask me to find it right now).

the background to this document raises many questions: these camps were supposedly pure extermination centers - why have this information recorded by foreign actors (romanians)? additionally, why are the end-stations specifically set as sobibor, belzec and treblinka? who was responsible for managing the transfer of jews from these camps further east, if this was not decided on at the train conferences? additionally, point (2) of the document talks about jews being transferred into the general government from romania, and this section of the document still talks of "destination Belzec", which indicates the Belzec would receive and dispatch trains into the general government. orthodox holocaust historians sometimes accept that trains were transited through these camps but never "further east", with the exception of a few trains supposedly transferring jews to Majdanek. this document seems to imply that jews came from romania and would be transited at Belzec to the General Government.

is anyone else aware of this document or other similar ones that explicitly mention these camps?

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Re: official documents mentioning reinhardt camps?

Postby Lamprecht » 6 months 2 weeks ago (Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:00 am)

curioussoul wrote:the background to this document raises many questions: these camps were supposedly pure extermination centers - why have this information recorded by foreign actors (romanians)?

Obviously they were not extermination camps

additionally, why are the end-stations specifically set as sobibor, belzec and treblinka?

These camps were set up in areas where the railroad track styles changed. The USSR used broader gauge railway tracks than the rest of Europe, so the same trains could not be used to travel into the USSR.

who was responsible for managing the transfer of jews from these camps further east, if this was not decided on at the train conferences?

I am not sure about this one. I suspect it was in flux. Sending them to these camps was one step. After they arrived there, whoever was destined to be resettled (some were sent to other camps to be used for labor) would be assigned some area based on the conditions at the moment.

additionally, point (2) of the document talks about jews being transferred into the general government from romania, and this section of the document still talks of "destination Belzec", which indicates the Belzec would receive and dispatch trains into the general government. orthodox holocaust historians sometimes accept that trains were transited through these camps but never "further east", with the exception of a few trains supposedly transferring jews to Majdanek. this document seems to imply that jews came from romania and would be transited at Belzec to the General Government.

Perhaps they were to be used for labor at some other camp. Check out: viewtopic.php?p=92065#p92065
Image

is anyone else aware of this document or other similar ones that explicitly mention these camps?

This is the first I've seen of this document and it appears to support the revisionist thesis, not the exterminationists'.
For other documents on AR, I suggest the following thread; check out my first post (the whole thing is a good read):

Simple question: What happened to the people who were sent to the camps? / 'Where did they go?'
viewtopic.php?t=13204

Also recommended:

'Where did they go?' / Jews Transited through Treblinka further refute extermination claims
viewtopic.php?t=12417

"Where did they go?" Jews Transited through "pure extermination camps" Belzec & Sobibor
viewtopic.php?t=13330

And for those without access to the book, here's the entire description given by Browning for OP's document:
Document A.2.
Protocol by Bruno Klemm of the conference held in Berlin on 26 and 28 September 1942, concerning the evacuation of Jews of the General Government and the dispatching of Romanian Jews into the General Government

Note: The original German document has not been found. A wartime Romanian translation survived in the Romanian archives [published in Jean Ancel, ed., Documents Concerning the Fate of Romanian Jewry during the Holocaust, vol. 10 (New York: Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, 1986), 237–38]. The United Restitution Organization published a re-translation (Rückübersetzung) into German in Dokumente über Methoden der Judenverfolgung im Ausland (Frankfurt am Main, 1959), 75–76. This volume presents an English translation, based on the Romanian translation and the German re-translation—despite the potentially corrupting effects on the text of so many linguistic transitions—precisely because it provides extraordinarily rare insight into a planning conference for Jewish transports both within the General Government and from abroad. That said, the proposals of Reinhard Heydrich presented to this planning conference were not completely fulfilled. No deportation trains ever delivered Romanian Jews to the General Government. Neither did Heydrich receive the maximum number of trains that he requested from the Ostbahn. Nonetheless, some 380,000 Polish Jews from the General Government and the adjoining district of Białystok were sent to the death camps of Operation Reinhard from the beginning of October to mid-December 1942.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
— Herbert Spencer


NOTE: I am taking a leave of absence from revisionism to focus on other things. At this point, the ball is in their court to show the alleged massive pits full of human remains at the so-called "extermination camps." After 8 decades they still refuse to do this. I wonder why...

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Re: official documents mentioning reinhardt camps?

Postby Fred zz » 6 months 2 weeks ago (Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:13 am)

Majdanek is not a very good transit camp since the railroad is about a mile walk from front gate. That is not to say people were not transited in and out of there. I argue they got a free ride to the railroad station from the camp
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Re: official documents mentioning reinhardt camps?

Postby curioussoul » 6 months 2 weeks ago (Mon Nov 21, 2022 1:25 pm)

Lamprecht wrote:
curioussoul wrote:Obviously they were not extermination camps


thanks for your response, and i wholeheartedly agree. the document seems to support the revisionist hypothesis, although i'm sure exterminationists would dwell on the fact that belzec, sobibor and treblinka are listed as end-stations. Of course, this says nothing in-and-of-itself.

I went back to the book today and found another, related, correspondence, which mentions similar information. it is dated july 28th 1942 and signed by Albert Ganzenmüller who was a top official at the Reich Transportation Ministry, and sent to Karl Wolff, personal adjutant to Heinrich Himmler. Interestingly, it mentions all three camps in the same letter. Browning's translation below:

Dr.-Eng. Ganzenmüller Berlin W8, 28 July 1942
State Secretary in the Reich Transport Ministry Voßstraße 35
Acting General Director of the German National Railroad
SS-Obergruppenführer Wolf [sic]
Berlin SW 11
Prinz-Albrecht-Str. 8
—Personal Staff of the
Reichsführer-SS —

Much esteemed Party Comrade Wolf! [sic]
With reference to our telephone conversation of 16 July, I am informing you of the following report from my General Directorate of the Eastern
Railroad (Gedob) in Kraków for your kind attention: since July 22, one train daily travels from Warsaw via Malkinia to Treblinka, each time with 5,000 Jews, as does a train twice per week with 5,000 Jews from Przemysl to Bełz ˙ec. Gedob is in constant contact with the Security Service in Kraków. It agrees to suspend transports from Warsaw via Lublin to Sobibór (near Lublin) as long as the repair work on this route makes transports impossible (roughly until October 1942).

The trains were arranged with the Commander of the Security Police in the General Government. SS- and Polizeiführer of the Lublin District,
SS-Brigadeführer Globotschnigg [sic], has been informed.

Hail Hitler!
Yours sincerely,
[signed] Ganzenmüller


On august 13th, Wolff responds:

Dear Party Comrade G a n z e n m ü l l e r !

Hearty thanks—also on behalf of the Reichsführer-SS [Heinrich Himmler]—for your letter of 28 July 1942. I have noted with special pleasure your message that for almost 14 days now a daily train travels to Treblinka with 5,000 members of the chosen people and that we are thus in a position to carry out this population movement at an accelerated pace. I have consulted with the participating agencies in order to assure a smooth execution of the entire undertaking. I thank you again for your exertions in this matter and beg to ask at the same time for your attention to these
issues in the future.

With best greetings and
H a i l H i t l e r !
W.


I find it very intriguing that Wolff referred to these (now notorious) transports specifically using the words "this population movement" - implying deportation to the East.

Ganzenmüller is an interesting figure because he seemed to have very detailed knowledge of the purposes and routes of these trains, but i am unaware of his fate after the war and whether any serious information was extracted from him in regards to these transports. Apparently a trial was held in Düsseldorf against him but Browning describes it as lackluster and disappointing, implying nothing much came of it.

in Browning's book, there are many fascinating details that the author conveniently neglects to explore. for example, he talks about Raul Hilberg's supposed "hunt" for railway documents in Europe during the 70's, and comments that:

He visited the headquarters of the German Federal Railways in Frankfurt and the railway archive in Nürnberg, where it became clear that insofar as railway documentation had survived the war, most of it now was hoarded privately by past employees who had no intention of returning it to official hands.


If official railway documents pertaining to the Reinhardt camps were hoarded privately by low-level workers, it may imply that these are still around today. Browning also writes this:

The Reichsbahn was not blind to the fact that there would be no complaints forthcoming from the SS about substandard equipment to ship Jews on one-way journeys to the killing centers, just as the schedulers knew that there was no problem with the slow pace and long delays such transports experienced in giving way to virtually all other rail traffic. Clearly, railway men at all levels knew precisely with whom they were dealing and what they were doing.


despite this supposed knowledge by people "at all levels", nothing survives that ever comes close to implying that these stations were extermination end-stations for jews...

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Re: official documents mentioning reinhardt camps?

Postby Hektor » 6 months 2 weeks ago (Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:14 am)

Fred zz wrote:Majdanek is not a very good transit camp since the railroad is about a mile walk from front gate. That is not to say people were not transited in and out of there. I argue they got a free ride to the railroad station from the camp



Majdanek was mostly a labor camp:
DR. SEIDL: Welche Konzentrationslager waren Ihnen während Ihrer Tätigkeit als Staatssekretär, als im Generalgouvernement liegend, bekannt?


BÜHLER: Ich wurde erstmals durch die Presseveröffentlichungen im Sommer 1944 auf das Konzentrationslager Maidanek aufmerksam. Ich wußte nicht, daß dieses Lager vor Lublin ein Konzentrationslager war. Es war eingerichtet worden als Wirtschaftsbetrieb des Reichsführers-SS, im Jahre 1941 wohl. Damals kam der Gouverneur Zörner zu mir und erzählte mir, daß er bei Globocnik Einspruch eingelegt habe gegen die Errichtung dieses Lagers, weil es die Energieversorgung der Stadt Lublin gefährde und auch in seuchenpolizeilicher Hinsicht Bedenken begegne.

Ich habe dem Generalgouverneur Mitteilung gemacht, und dieser hat Globocnik zu sich kommen lassen. Globocnik hat dem Generalgouverneur erklärt, daß er in diesem Gelände Fertigungswerkstätten für den Frontbedarf der Waffen-SS eingerichtet habe. Er sprach von Pelzfertigungswerkstätten, aber auch von einem Bauhof, der dort sich befände.

In diesen Pelzfertigungswerkstätten wurden dann auch, wie ich hörte, die aus der Pelzsammlung stammenden Pelzsachen für den Frontbedarf umgearbeitet. Globocnik hat erklärt, daß er diese Betriebe somit auf Befehl und Weisung Himmlers eingerichtet habe.

Der Generalgouverneur hat ihm den Weiterbau verboten, bis die baupolizeilichen Angelegenheiten restlos geklärt seien, bis die Baupläne den staatlichen Behörden vorgelegen hätten und bis eben alle sonstigen Erfordernisse, wie sie beim Bauen zu erfüllen sind, erfüllt gewesen wäre. Globocnik hat solche Pläne nie vorgelegt. Über das, was im Lager vor sich ging, drang irgendeine konkrete Nachricht nicht nach außen, und es hat den Generalgouverneur ebenso wie mich überrascht, als in der Weltpresse die Nachrichten über Maidanek erschienen.


DR. SEIDL: Herr Zeuge! Die Anklagevertretung hat ein Dokument vorgelegt, 437-PS, US-610. Es ist das ein Memorandum des Generalgouverneurs an den Führer vom 19. Juni 1943. Ich glaube, daß der Entwurf zu diesem Memorandum von Ihnen selbst stammt. Hier wird nun auf Seite 35 ein Bericht des Befehlshabers der Sicherheitspolizei erwähnt und zum Teil wörtlich zitiert. Und in diesem Bericht der Sicherheitspolizei wird auch der Name Maidanek erwähnt.

Wußten Sie damals, daß dieses Maidanek identisch oder wahrscheinlich identisch war mit dem Lager bei Lublin?


[80] BÜHLER: Nein. Ich habe angenommen, daß es wie Auschwitz außerhalb des Gebiets des Generalgouvernements irgendein Lager ist, denn der Generalgouverneur hatte wiederholt auch der Polizei gegenüber und dem Höheren SS- und Polizeiführer gegenüber zum Ausdruck gebracht, daß er Konzentrationslager im Generalgouvernement nicht wünsche.
http://www.zeno.org/Geschichte/M/Der+N% ... agssitzung


Doesn't exclude people being send there 'for some time only'.

During the Frankfurt Auschwitz Trial... Some of the Communist witnesses (who were counted as Jews as well) reported that they were sent from Auschwitz to other camps to work there. While they claimed to have seen 'gas chambers' in Auschwitz, their own biography didn't really support the narrative being constructed there.

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Re: official documents mentioning reinhardt camps?

Postby Fred zz » 6 months 2 weeks ago (Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:13 am)

Do you have that in English?
the attachments are why I agree with your statement about being a work camp. Squared off in red are work related sheds
also note that the biggest building at Majdanek was shoe repair (B62) as you can see on the sign
Attachments
maj work sheds.JPG
B62 shoe repair building.JPG
work camp maj.JPG
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Re: official documents mentioning reinhardt camps?

Postby Prussian blue » 6 months 2 weeks ago (Fri Nov 25, 2022 12:09 pm)

Fred zz wrote:Do you have that in English?


The English translation of the Nuremberg Trial Proceedings quoted by Hektor can be found here:
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/04-23-46.asp
Press Ctrl+F and search for "Maidanek" (with an "i"), first occurence.

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Re: official documents mentioning reinhardt camps?

Postby slob » 6 months 2 weeks ago (Fri Nov 25, 2022 12:38 pm)

No idea if this has any relevance, if not please delete.

Transfer of 285,000 Romanian jews to soviet Russia the end of 1942.

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https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-890404943/vi ... 4/mode/1up

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Re: official documents mentioning reinhardt camps?

Postby hermod » 6 months 1 week ago (Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:58 am)

Lamprecht wrote:
curioussoul wrote:additionally, why are the end-stations specifically set as sobibor, belzec and treblinka?


These camps were set up in areas where the railroad track styles changed. The USSR used broader gauge railway tracks than the rest of Europe, so the same trains could not be used to travel into the USSR.


True. Those places had been previously used as reloading stations for the commercial exchange of raw materials and freight between the Third Reich and the Soviet Union. Malkinia (near Treblinka) and Belzec were even mentioned by name in the 1940 press reports about those facilities.

"[Austen Chamberlain] has done western civilization a great service by refuting at least one of the slanders against the Germans
because a civilization which leaves war lies unchallenged in an atmosphere of hatred and does not produce courage in its leaders to refute them
is doomed.
"

Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, on the public admission by Britain's Foreign Secretary that the WWI corpse-factory story was false, December 4, 1925

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Re: official documents mentioning reinhardt camps?

Postby Hektor » 6 months 1 week ago (Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:45 am)

slob wrote:No idea if this has any relevance, if not please delete.

Transfer of 285,000 Romanian jews to soviet Russia the end of 1942.

Image
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-890404943/vi ... 4/mode/1up



It does.. It seems to be from a book. I'll download it and check.

Now the authors of the book must have had sources and there one can perhaps find out more.

There is no doubt that there were populations transfers during world war two... But the extermination explanation seems to be reserved for Jews only.


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