The full audio recording of Himmler's Posen speech?

[curioussoul]

Is there a full audio recording of Himmler's entire speech from the 4th of October, 1943?

Despite my best attempts I haven't been able to find any full audio recording. The only recordings available online are from the notorious "Jewish evacuation" portion.

I've found clips from TV shows of people reading the entire speech for 3 hours, and robots reading the entire thing. But where's the full recording of Himmler himself? Or did they only record the most incriminating portion?

The reason I'm curious is that I want to compare Himmler's voice throughout the entire speech. Considering it's almost 100% certain that the 4th of October speech is an edited version of an original speech in Posen (and the 6th of October speech is fraudulent), I would be curious to find out if whoever made the recorded version of the speech actually bothered to record the entire 2+ hours of talking.

[fireofice]

I believe this is it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7XqaesNrlg

[Otium]

What's needed is the incomplete 30 or so minute recording of the October 6 speech held by NARA. Though it probably doesn't have the most interesting part included. The provenance of the recording needs to be clearly established so that it can be ruled out that parts may have been cut, which is one of the concerns.

[Hektor]

....
The reason I'm curious is that I want to compare Himmler's voice throughout the entire speech. Considering it's almost 100% certain that the 4th of October speech is an edited version of an original speech in Posen (and the 6th of October speech is fraudulent), I would be curious to find out if whoever made the recorded version of the speech actually bothered to record the entire 2+ hours of talking.

I suspect it as well. But what would be the proof positive for this?

[curioussoul]

I believe this is it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7XqaesNrlg

There it is, thank you!

I suspect it as well. But what would be the proof positive for this?

Irving, who looked at the original manuscripts for both the 4th and 6th of October speech, confirmed that both pages that contained the "incriminating" part about Jewish resettlement had been re-typed, re-paginated by hand and re-inserted in amongst the other pages of the speech. It's natural that an "audio recording" would be created to hammer in the fraud. If these particular pages were indeed tampered with, it's easy to dismiss the entire speech.

What's needed is the incomplete 30 or so minute recording of the October 6 speeches held by NARA. Though it probably doesn't have the most interesting part included. The provenance of the recording needs to be clearly established so that it can be ruled out that parts may have been cut, which is one of the concerns.

There's a recording of the 6th of October speech as well?

As many people have pointed out, the 4th of October speech can quite easily be interpreted within the context of Jewish resettlement being the equivalent of extirpating them within Europe, which is confirmed even by mainstream historians in regards to speeches made by Hitler. That's why the 6th of October speech is so important and why I think the version "found" by Goldhagen is fraudulent.

But an audio recording, I suppose, would possibly confirm whether Goldhagen altered the speech he "found".

[Otium]

I suspect it as well. But what would be the proof positive for this?

If the original recording was done via a magnetic recording tape which, it's been said, was the standard practise of recording speeches (and other things) in the Third Reich, then this might put the nail in the coffin. However, I'm not sure what the Posen Speeches and other speeches at this event were recorded on as it pertains to those held by NARA.

They only tell us that magnetic tape was used on 2 speeches: Himmler's speech of August 29, 1944 and Himmler's speech of September 21, 1944.

This last speech by Himmler is interesting because even though it was recorded on magnetic tape, they're not sure if it's complete or not:

"30. Himmler, Heinrich. "Speech to the Commanding Officers of the Wehrkreise and the Commanding Officers of the Training Schools" ("Rede zu den Wehrkreisbefehlshabern und den Kommandeuren der Schulen"). Jagerhohe, Sept. 21, 1944. Approx. 120 min. Item 242-267, 242-258, 242-247, 242-248, 242-260, 242-265. Incomplete. Comparison with text extant in Reichsfuhrer SS. Personlicher Stab. Schriftgutverwaltung. Heft Nr. 26. EAP 16 1-b-12/276. T175, roll 92, frames 2613636-658, indicates the only gap in the original magnetic tape recording corresponds to pages 8 and 9 of the 23-page typed text. This recording, however, is more complete in a number of places (i.e., sections equivalent to pages 11 and 22) than the text, which contains substantial rewording."

https://www.archives.gov/research/captured-german-records/sound-recordings.html

What you need to understand here, and this is important, is that neither the written texts of these speeches nor the sound recordings are necessarily totally reliable. Even the written text can preclude what might have been recorded, and vice versa. This is essential to understand in the case of the Posen speeches, because we're told that these speeches are original (which may or may not be true, I'm not sure) and complete (at least in the case for the October 4th speech). If the recording is incomplete, like with the October 6th speech, then surely the text must be reliable. Not necessarily. This, in my view, from what I hope I'm understanding correctly, makes Hadding Scott's hypothesis even more plausible:

"I think that the recording was probably altered as follows. Himmler said, "We had the duty to our people to do it," in one context (probably about a past execution of corrupt SS-men, or the Night of the Long Knives), and in a different context, "We have the moral right to kill this (group of) people who would kill us," implying that the Jews were getting off easy by merely being deprived of wealth and deported. The former statement thus would have been inserted into the latter to change its significance, making it about a deed actually (already!) committed instead of an observation about how restrained and generous the treatment of the Jews was going to be.

It was completely feasible to edit sound recordings after Germany was defeated in 1945, since magnetic recording tape, which unlike wire recording or phonograph record is easily cut and spliced, had already been invented (by a German) in 1928. According to the U.S. National Archives (cited by The Holocaust History Project) the most common method of recording speeches in the Third Reich was direct recording to phonograph disc. Echos in this recording however indicate that the speech was stored for years on tape. Unless there is also an original disc-recording that has the same content as the tape, it means that the recording could have been edited."

Hadding Scott, The Improbable and the Impossible in Himmler's Posen Speech, April 9, 2009. Link | Archive 1 | Archive 2 (original)

This is even more plausable because, as I pointed out, the references, the wording, the vernacular in general Himmler uses to supposedly refer to "killing all Jews" in both the October 4 and 6 speeches are also used later in other speeches of his to reference partisans. If the recording has been altered or if the text has been altered is a very real possibility. And by chance it might even be that the recordings and text are both incomplete but original. It's something to keep in mind, the case is not settled especially since nobody is allowed to even question the authenticity of these "convincing" documents. Interpretations abound.

Anyway.

It's worth noting too that for other speeches the NARA website mentions "reels" and "tapes", but not what was used to record them. The impression given is that they're all original, which may well be true but doesn't necessarily harm the case that - as we've seen - the written text or the recordings are incomplete in some way (which seems extremely likely considering the seemingly random jump Himmler makes in the October 4th speech). We may just never know, and it seems irresponsible to make the claim - without proof - that the Posen speeches are 100% accurate in their content, either textually or in terms of the recordings.

[Otium]

Irving, who looked at the original manuscripts for both the 4th and 6th of October speech, confirmed that both pages that contained the "incriminating" part about Jewish resettlement had been re-typed, re-paginated by hand and re-inserted in amongst the other pages of the speech. It's natural that an "audio recording" would be created to hammer in the fraud. If these particular pages were indeed tampered with, it's easy to dismiss the entire speech.

This doesn't seem to be true. See my post here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14727#p106271

I have seen the archival versions of the October 6th speech - which is the one Irving is referring to, not the October 4th speech - of which there are 2 archival versions (I only posted about one of them in the thread, the second typewritten version is also consistent so I didn't mention it) which is entirely consistent in terms of the type and pagination. There aren't any pencilled in page numbers either. So Irving must either be misremembering, or referring to some third typewritten version I don't know about.

[hermod]

At the Nuremberg show trial, Gottlob Christian Berger, a close collaborator of Himmler's, failed to recognize the voice of Himmler in that recording. He called it "an intermediate thing between the voice of Himmler and Hitler."

https://postimg.cc/bG670jLB

[Hektor]

Irving, who looked at the original manuscripts for both the 4th and 6th of October speech, confirmed that both pages that contained the "incriminating" part about Jewish resettlement had been re-typed, re-paginated by hand and re-inserted in amongst the other pages of the speech. It's natural that an "audio recording" would be created to hammer in the fraud. If these particular pages were indeed tampered with, it's easy to dismiss the entire speech.

This doesn't seem to be true. See my post here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14727#p106271

I have seen the archival versions of the October 6th speech - which is the one Irving is referring to, not the October 4th speech - of which there are 2 archival versions (I only posted about one of them in the thread, the second typewritten version is also consistent so I didn't mention it) which is entirely consistent in terms of the type and pagination. There aren't any pencilled in page numbers either. So Irving must either be misremembering, or referring to some third typewritten version I don't know about.

That's why it is important to have photographs/scans of documents that are considered critical. But the access isn't without hindrances, for legitimate reasons (protection of historical documents for future research), but probably for some other reasons as well.

The issue is also that it is possible to use the type of paper, typewriters, ink etc. at the type to create alternative versions.

On the other hand, while some parts of the Himmler Speech are rather odd... It actually isn't saying anything outside the scope of what Revisionists consider to be true. There were reprisals against Jews in the rear of the Eastern Front. Himmler was pretty frank about this to Norbert Masur (who doesn't believe him, still recorded and represented what he was told):
https://archive.org/details/NorbertMasu ... r/mode/2up
I think that Norbert Masur had a bias, but don't think he intentionally misrepresented what Himmler told him.
Of course the version of events given by Heinrich Himmler contradicts the Holocaust Myth.
That's why that otherwise sensational booklet didn't get a lot of attention. It's however funny that Heinrich Himmler was one of the first Holocaust Deniers.

[curioussoul]

Irving, who looked at the original manuscripts for both the 4th and 6th of October speech, confirmed that both pages that contained the "incriminating" part about Jewish resettlement had been re-typed, re-paginated by hand and re-inserted in amongst the other pages of the speech. It's natural that an "audio recording" would be created to hammer in the fraud. If these particular pages were indeed tampered with, it's easy to dismiss the entire speech.

This doesn't seem to be true. See my post here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14727#p106271

I have seen the archival versions of the October 6th speech - which is the one Irving is referring to, not the October 4th speech - of which there are 2 archival versions (I only posted about one of them in the thread, the second typewritten version is also consistent so I didn't mention it) which is entirely consistent in terms of the type and pagination. There aren't any pencilled in page numbers either. So Irving must either be misremembering, or referring to some third typewritten version I don't know about.

Very interesting and well-researched post. Thanks!

[hermod]

Always keep in mind that the fabrication of fake voice records (voice impersonators do it every day for humorous purposes) and typewritten transcripts is a breeze. And it's almost as easy for the fabrication of fake handwritten notes.

Now anybody can even fabricate a fake filmographic record of anything for very little money or skills.

[UselessEaters]

Thanks so much, @fireofice, for the link to the alleged Posen recording.

But the Jew would have had its sense of entitlement injured by having to wait two hours before anyone noticed it -- much to the chagrin of the attention-seeker Jew, the me-me-me Jew. In the audio, Reichsführer-ᛋᛋ Heinrich Himmler turns to the Jew after 2:00:12, giving it only five minutes (sic) of his valuable time, before discarding the Jew at 2:05:22. This is a mere 2.3% of the Reichsführer-ᛋᛋ's address to the assembled ᛋᛋ-Gruppenführer.

To add to @Otium's observation, the linked texts (perhaps the pre-written speech) differ from the words delivered by the Reichsführer-ᛋᛋ (if indeed the audio is genuine). Nevertheless, the Jew has to wait until page 25 of the German text for the Jew passage, https://www.1000dokumente.de/pdf/dok_0008_pos_de.pdf, this being two-thirds of the way down the English text, http://holocaustresearchproject.org/hol ... posen.html.

So much for the Jew being the center of attention in the world-outlook of the ᛋᛋ.