Who started bombing civilians first:Germany or Great Britain

[flimflam]

Irving tells the story .... day by day .... takes him about 30 min. to get to it ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcBVkzpYznM

[flimflam]

The account associated with the Irving vid above has been terminated by YouTube, however it can still be seen here ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI1Z8bwImA0

This is an extraordinary vid as Irving gives a detailed and documented account of the beginning of the terror bombing on the orders of Churchill.

[Mortimer]

Operation Gomorrah was the code name the RAF gave to its attack on the city of Hamburg in 1943. They used incendiaries to create firestorms over the city. Ian Greenhalgh from Veterans Today relates - http://www.veteranstoday.com/2018/08/02 ... -nagasaki/

[Mortimer]

Bombing Vindicated by J M Spaight first published in 1944 where he admits the RAF was deliberately targeting civilians. There is a review here - https://inconvenienthistory.com/7/1/3358
The whole book is online here - https://codoh.com/library/document/5782/

[Lamprecht]

Good video debate:

The Allied bombing of German cities in World War II was unjustifiable



mirror: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCOtnyUoG2w

Filmed at the Royal Institute of British Architects
25 October 2012

No one doubts the bravery of the thousands of men who flew and died in Bomber Command. The death rate was an appalling 44%. And yet until the opening of a monument in Green Park this year they have received no official recognition, with many historians claiming that the offensive was immoral and unjustified. How can it be right, they argue, for the Allies to have deliberately targeted German cities causing the death of hundreds of thousands of civilians? Even on a strategic level the offensive failed to bring about the collapse of civilian morale that was its intention.

Others, however, maintain that the attacks made a decisive contribution to the Allied victory. Vast numbers of German soldiers and planes were diverted from the eastern and western fronts, while Allied bombing attacks virtually destroyed the German air force, clearing the way for the invasion of the continent.

[forasanerworld]

"bombing civilians". As with "The Holocaust" you first need, in my opinion, to define critically what is meant.

My starting point would be to define what was the role of the Luftwaffe and what it was not. It most emphatically never was a strategic bombing force in it's own independent function, it never had a meaningful four engine long range bomber and the Kg crews must have been very glad that the He 177 didn't see wider service, the maximum payload was 8 x 250 Kgs exceeding the rather rare He 177 2 x 1800.

By contrast the Lancaster could carry up to 10000 Kgs (Grand Slam) and was a 1940s design, the He 111 was then obsolete emanating from 1935. In fact the Luftwaffe's most effective "bomber" was probably the Ju 87 Stukka, the Luftwaffe was a tactical force, effectively long range artillery and designed to be followed up by the Wehrmacht, which of course it couldn't do over The Channel.

[Lamprecht]

Excellent article by Justice4Germans:

Who Started the Bombing of Cities and Targeting of Civilians in World War II?
https://archive.is/IpRwW

It is widely believed to this day that the Germans instigated the aerial bombing campaign against European and British cities, and thus “got what they deserved” in kind. Often cited are the German bombings of Warsaw and Rotterdam. These two instances of bombings are not in dispute, however, the context must be considered. The details are seldom discussed, and hence, little known. The rules of warfare must also be considered. The deliberate targeting of civilians was indeed a “war crime”. The Hague conventions tolerated the bombing of cities IF they were under military occupation (ie “defended”), which was the case with both Warsaw or Rotterdam.


For those who read German:

(PDF) ERICH KERN. Verbrechen am deutschen Volk. Eine Dokumentation alliierter Grausamkeiten. 1964. VERLAG K. W. SCHÜTZ • GÖTTINGEN
http://web.archive.org/web/201907072155 ... n_volk.pdf


Also suggested:

A MOST UNCIVILIZED MEANS OF WARFARE – Genocidal British Bombing Policy During World War II
https://archive.is/wM62X

[Mortimer]

In France over 50 000 civilians were killed by American and British bombs. This has been ignored or downplayed by the French government for decades but in the last few years it has finally been acknowledged during recent D Day anniversary commemorations.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27703724

[eku-pilz]

The account associated with the Irving vid above has been terminated by YouTube, however it can still be seen here ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI1Z8bwImA0

This is an extraordinary vid as Irving gives a detailed and documented account of the beginning of the terror bombing on the orders of Churchill.

Hello Folks,

again the associated youtube account has been terminated
Please, would somebody tell me the name of this vid?

Thank you very much!

[Mortimer]

Richard Crossman worked for the PWE (Political Warfare Executive) during the second world war. On 16 May 1973 he wrote a letter to The Times commenting on the recent Watergate controversy headed The Wartime Tactics Which Led To Watergate -
"This inner government is, of course, a necessary apparatus of total war; and the best paid and the most attractive of its departments are those which deal with covert operations in which we British have always excelled. Indeed, apart from the RAF success of pioneering the firestorm which cooked 50 000 Hamburgers and 150 000 Dresdeners while officially claiming we were bombing military targets, subversive operations and black propaganda were the only aspects of the war at which we achieved real pre-eminence. We trained a small army of gifted amateurs for all the dirtiest tasks from lying, bugging, forging and embezzlement to sheer murder - all of course, in the name of preserving the democratic way of life."
Quote taken from The Black Game - British Subversive Operations Against The Germans During The Second World War by Ellic Howe. Introduction Page 3.

So there you have it. An admission by someone who worked for the British government that the RAF were deliberately bombing civilians while they officially claimed to be attacking military targets.

[Mortimer]

The lowdown on Frederick Lindemann and the plan that was named after him and implemented by Churchill.
http://www.winterwatch.net/2022/08/the- ... lindemann/

At the Nuremberg Tribunal 1945-46 it was expressly stated that the targeting of civilians was considered a war crime and yet here the British were doing it themselves.
viewtopic.php?t=11053

[Hektor]

Richard Crossman worked for the PWE (Political Warfare Executive) during the second world war. On 16 May 1973 he wrote a letter to The Times commenting on the recent Watergate controversy headed The Wartime Tactics Which Led To Watergate -
"This inner government is, of course, a necessary apparatus of total war; and the best paid and the most attractive of its departments are those which deal with covert operations in which we British have always excelled. Indeed, apart from the RAF success of pioneering the firestorm which cooked 50 000 Hamburgers and 150 000 Dresdeners while officially claiming we were bombing military targets, subversive operations and black propaganda were the only aspects of the war at which we achieved real pre-eminence. We trained a small army of gifted amateurs for all the dirtiest tasks from lying, bugging, forging and embezzlement to sheer murder - all of course, in the name of preserving the democratic way of life."
Quote taken from The Black Game - British Subversive Operations Against The Germans During The Second World War by Ellic Howe. Introduction Page 3.

So there you have it. An admission by someone who worked for the British government that the RAF were deliberately bombing civilians while they officially claimed to be attacking military targets.

I'm a bit skeptical with 'letters to the Times' or any other big name newspaper that sound 'too good to be true'. (or to bad to be true).
Is there something more tangible than some book allegedly having cited that?

I indeed found a copy of that book:
https://archive.org/details/blackgamebr ... q=Crossman
It's however not really that accessible, if you don't borrow it.
The text is there. But I'd like to see the 'letter to the Times'. Already learned the hard way about this.

Richard Crossman is definitely a figure that engaged in psychological warfare.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Crossman
It's amazing where he appears to be connected to.
He's mentioned with the Eugen Kogon Book: https://archive.org/details/EugenKogonT ... ticeOfHell
And to this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Co ... ual_Survey
Apparently he wrote the script for the movie.
He also was a Zionist.

Now being involved in atrocity propaganda, I always wonder how much those people did believe in those stories themselves. I'd guess that they at least realized that it is 'blown out of proportion'. But still considered it useful. And if Crossman realized that the British "Excelled at atrocities and lying"... He'd realize that that lying about concentration camps was a necessity necessary. He would also realize WHY people did die in Belsen at a larger scale. The British already did do economic warfare against Germany during WW1 and there would of course be repercussions for production and distribution in Germany, too, as result of air warfare in WW2. That was at least part of the strategy: Getting people killed as result of bombing, but also disrupting production and distribution of food with the aim of getting more people killed that way. That would hit through on prisoners was an expectable consequence of this. And if you want the finger not to point back at you, make sure the finger points perpetually at the enemy you brought this on.

And that's where it gets puzzling. There should actually be far more historians that realize this, too. But it seems they struggle to connect the dots, there.