bombsaway wrote:Butterfangers wrote:You can offer up whatever narrative of mass killing events you'd enjoy whipping up in the kitchen, feel free to do so, but, "I could also suggest that there was a mass killing at Treblinka... it would make sense for the Nazis to kill people..." is not how criminal investigations and convictions are supposed to work. It is you---not I---who needs proof.
The sites were surveyed after the war in and in terms of findings at least at the Reinhard camps and Chelmno (I haven't looked into Auschwitz deeply, but it seems the ashes weren't stored on site) there is clear indication of mass body destruction and burial. While the studies did not employ scientific methods to determine the quantity of bodies destroyed at each, I think this is understandable given the difficulty and cost of sifting and testing hundreds of thousands of pounds of cremains mixed with dirt and sand. I think the lack of pictures (similar to other mass graves) is ultimately due to the mass body destruction, which is unprecedented. No comparable graves like these have ever been excavated.
Look at all this conjecture. "...the studies did not employ scientific methods to determine the quantity of bodies..." but we should still accept these claims about the quantity of bodies (?). Your "clear indication of mass body destruction and burial" amounts to reaching inferences and assumptions lacking any necessity of truth or validity. You suppose the "difficulty and cost of sifting and testing hundreds of thousands of pounds of cremains" is justification enough to place guilt for the most serious allegations of all-time upon an entire nation of unfortunate [German] men and women.
"No comparable graves like these have ever been excavated." And no comparable allegations like these have ever been made.
As I said before, I wouldn't believe the studies absent of other evidence. Witness testimony and documents are evidence, and I don't think the claim that they were all coerced or key documents were fabricated is convincing. Perpetrators affirmed the mass killing inside and outside of trial, for decades after the war, in countries that had American style legal systems (eg West Germany).
Rather predictably, it's like you are pretending these are things Revisionists have not already addressed in-detail and beyond sufficiently. Witnesses can be liars, hence why "hearsay" is thrown out of court
constantly. Liars are abundant, especially with stakes as high as WW2 and, history has shown,
especially with Jews, in general (sorry, not sorry), but also with men on trial who know they are hopeless at denying the over-arching claims of an "extermination campaign" and are, thus, forced to accept a false premise. Moreover, finding ex-soldiers who accept bribery or other personal incentives is never impossible. Those who will affirm a "Holocaust" are praised or "forgiven" whereas those who tell the truth---that such claims are stupid and ridiculous---are permanent pariahs or even outlaws.
The USSR and Western Allies have no history of fabricating documents from other nationalities (governments of course 'lie' internally) and I haven't seen a single document that rises to the level of 'definitely a forgery'.
It seems like you're saying here, "the Soviets wouldn't lie!". Please elaborate your argument so that it becomes even more clear how deliberate you are in your deception campaign.
This includes not just written documents, but recordings, like of the Posen speeches or Eichmann's conversations with Sassen in Argentina.
The Posen speech says precisely nothing about the literal killing of all Jews on the basis of Jewishness. Himmler speaks of the removal of the parasitic entity that is Judaism and its racial adherents within the body of the German people. All conceptions of "killing" or "uprooting" in that regard are relevant to this process, with only one or two exceptions where he acknowledges the brutality of the evacuation process and that some may indeed die in the process. This has
nothing to do with any global "extermination program".
As for Eichmann, if I recall correctly, the
tapes were thrown out of an Israeli court (only a very small portion of a written transcript was admitted) and the
originals have since vanished while in Israeli custody.
In terms of my beliefs, at one point I was skeptical about Auschwitz mass gassing claims, but after some research I'd say my position is more or less set, given what I currently know. I've looked into revisionism enough to get a sense that the strongest evidence and arguments aren't impressive, so I doubt anything is going to change my mind at this point. Theoretically of course my mind could be changed if I saw new evidence, and I think that's a good mindset to have. I am trying to get to the bottom of the truth, just like you probably, even though you're also confident about your position.
Again, Mr. Feldberg, I am not buying it, and I doubt anyone else is here, either.
I think of objectivity as a platonic ideal sort of thing, something we can all aspire towards. This means adhering as much as possible to consistent standards. The relevant standard here is for a narrative to be 'acceptable' in terms of historicity it should be well evidenced. The criteria here is the problem, 'what is well evidenced'? We know lots of facts are lost to history, and expectations can vary here. Personally, if there was evidence of 1% of the Jews in question being resettled I would call this poor evidence that they all made it. But actually I've seen no evidence from your side that resettlement on any level even occurred, so if such evidence hasn't been unearthed, I think it can objectively be said this particular narrative does not meet the above standards. The extenuating circumstances you describe actually don't matter. When looking at movement of mass groups in recent history, as far as I can tell there has always been at least some evidence trail that can be followed, so you are alleging a singular event which has to be scrutinized very closely, just like the story of mass gassings.
What you keep referring to is missing Jews, for whom there are no precise, credible estimates of how many are missing, no precise location they are missing from, or at what time they went missing. It is presumed at least several hundreds of thousands
may have ended up either at or around the AR camps or
somewhere east of Poland.
Predictably, you ignore all of the points I have already outlined, again trying to compare a unique set of circumstances to your own inferences about other events in history. At minimum, you ignore:
- administrative factors
- diffusion/dispersion
- Jews used for labor (light or heavy)
- Jews in other camps and collection sites
- motivations to document or lack thereof
- cover-ups by Germans, Allied governments, the Soviets, and/or Jews themselves
- Allied victory and handling of evidence
- Soviet factors
Let's break those down into question format:
- How many fewer reports should we expect with such stark differences in administration (between Transnistria and other Eastern-occupied territories)?
- How many fewer should we expect when Jews were diffused/dispersed all throughout a massive region (i.e. relatively low numbers to each area)?
- How many of the "unfit" Jews actually were used for labor in the East (hence, housed within the massive labor camp network through the end of the war)?
- How many of the remaining Jews ended up in any of the thousands of other camps or collection sites which are known to have existed (remember, 40,000+ in Europe)?
- Who would have been motivated to document Jews that were resettled? Did the Germans have any real motivation to document these placements?
- Who had motivation to actually cover-up these placements? How many could have been covered-up by the Germans? By the Allied governments? By the Soviets, in particular? By Jews themselves, wishing to remain in hiding long after the war?
- How many were quite literally "erased" from the historical record by the Allies through the course of post-war trials and their dishonest historiography?
- How many of these Jews did the Soviets kill immediately, imprison indefinitely, or otherwise wipe from the record?
Each and every one of these items is a gaping hole in your narrative that ____ million/thousand Jews were gassed at Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec, Beijing, Atlantis, or the Moon.
Remember, it was the proponents of
your position who first made the extraordinary claims you now defend. Not only do these
lack the requisite extraordinary evidence in terms of that which is physical/forensic, and not only is the witness pool saturated with countless
proven liars, but your documentary trail is fatally broken, as is your suggestion that documentation which opposes your hypothesis should be present (for the reasons shown above).
To start with Transnistria vs other SSRs, how did you determine the great difference you're describing? Would it be possible to verify and quantify this difference? eg we might look at population density, GDP, proportion of population that are Jews, urbanization levels , etc ...
I determined the difference by using Google for five minutes and actually trying to be honest and objective in my research. The Romanian government was an ally of Germany and thus was much more cooperative in developing administration related to Jewish policy. They also occupied the area of
Transnistria very early in the war (mid-late 1941), and this area was adjacent / in very close proximity to the Romanian heartland. The Centrala Evreilor ("Jewish Center") was established by January 1942, as a
centralized administration which dealt specifically with Jewish policy.
No such centralized administration existed in the Baltic states and Ukraine, which were, rather, makeshift "puppet administrations" and only did what they were essentially forced to do, specifically related to the requirements as set forth by German officials.
These areas were also vast, with Jews occasionally concentrated in major city areas however often vastly
spread out over thousands of kilometers. On the Centrala Evreilor, from USHMM:
During the period of 1941-1944, the Jewish Central Office in Romania was the only institution authorized to represent the interests of the Jewish community in Romania. To the Jewish Central Office in Romania there were subordinated all institutions of public interest, charity, cultural and religious societies of different Jewish communities across the country.
https://portal.ehri-project.eu/units/md-002886-1594_1More information/insights about the Centrala Evreilor and its function, role in
Transnistria:
It would be interesting to compare the number of Jews you accept as 'gassed and murdered' with absolutely zero physical evidence for each of them, compared to the number of Jews you deny as simply having gone missing and unreported for any of the reasons I have outlined earlier.
