War Crimes Report Estimates 165 Murders Per Day

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War Crimes Report Estimates 165 Murders Per Day

Postby Hektor » 1 decade 5 months ago (Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:28 pm)


War Crimes Report Estimates 165 Murders Per Day

By Hans-Jürgen Schlamp in Rome


REUTERS
A momument to the victims of Nazi war crimes in Sant'Anna di Stazzema.
Some 165 murders a day. That is the horrifying conclusion reached by an historical commission assigned the task of exploring the full extent of Nazi war crimes committed in Italy in World War II. The identity of many of the murderers has long been known, but to this day little has been done to bring them to justice.


Roberto Oligeri still lives in the small village in Toscana where his family was murdered. The killers marched into the hamlet on Aug. 19, 1944. Held at gunpoint, his father, who ran a small inn, was forced to serve Sturmbahnführer Walter Reder and his underlings a meal. As they dined on roast chicken and regional wine, soldiers from the 16th SS Mechanized Infantry Division combed through the village and surrounding area and rounded up women, children and a handful of old men. When Reder had finished his meal, he gave the order that all of them be killed.

ANZEIGE

"On that day, 160 people in our village were muredered, including my five siblings -- two brothers and three sisters. The oldest was 19 and the youngest just three," says Oligeri.
Neighboring villages experienced the same fate as SS troops beat, murdered and burned men, women and babies in that August of 1944. Some 560 people died in the mountain village of Sant'Anna di Stazzema on August 12 alone.

The crimes have never been atoned for nor have they been adequately addressed by the judiciary. An Italian court did sentence 10 of the SS thugs involved in the Sant'Anna di Stazzema massacre to life in prison in abstentia, but Germany never extradited them. And just recently, a court in Stuttgart refused to pursue the case, saying that murderous intent could not be proven.

It was a decision that enraged Oligeri as a slew of similar failures by the judiciary have enraged him before. He says that survivors of the massacre were left alone to deal with their pain and nightmares while the perpetrators returned home to a normal, peaceful life. He has pursued the case in multiple courts, but has never found success. He has also written endless letters to politicians and newspapers. "We don't want revenge," he says. "We want justice."

Brutal and Murderous

It might still be awhile before he gets it. On Wednesday, a new report was released on the crimes committed by Germany during its occupation of Italy shortly before the end of World War II. Historians from both countries spent some four years examining original sources to determine exactly what happened in Italy after the country's fascist government -- until then an ally of Nazi Germany -- changed sides in September 1943 and negotiated a truce with the Allies.

The more difficult the situation for German troops in Italy became, the more brutal their murderous behavior. They declared more than 600,000 Italian soldiers as "military internees," denying them the status of prisoners of war, and shipped them to Germany or the Balkans to perform forced labor. Thousands died.

The Germans also descended on the Italian civilian population with homicidal ferocity. One example is the "revenge operation" of March 24, 1944: Some 335 people were dragged to the Ardeatine Caves on the outskirts of Rome and shot before the caves were then blown up. To this day the victims are buried there.

One historian estimates that, on average, the Germans killed165 civilians, prisoners of war and military internees every day between Sept. 8, 1943 and May 8, 1945. That figure doesn't include victims from skirmishes between the German army and Italian soliders and guerillas. "The massacre was on the whole thoroughly organized and followed tight military procedure," according to Carlo Gentile, a professor of Italian history at the University of Cologne. It is even known who the killers are, along with their units, their commanders and other information. And yet there have still, to this day, been but a very few convictions.

For years after the war, political expediency dictated that the issue was largely ignored in Italy. In the postwar conflict between East and West, Germany was to be rearmed so as to play a meaningful role in the new North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Focusing attention on German war crimes would have generated substantial opposition among the Italian population.

Not a Single Verdict

Only much later did significant public pressure force Rome to initiate a handfull of proceedings -- and a few German perpetrators were finally punished. Erich Priebke, for example, one of the SS officers who participated in the Ardeatine Caves massacre, received a life long sentence. At the age of 99, he is still alive today and remains under house arrest in Rome.

In Germany, however, not a single, legally binding verdict related to the war crimes committed in Italy was handed down.

Resentment in Italy has occasionally boiled over. Such was the case four years ago, when Germany successfully avoided paying reparations to the relatives of murdered civilians in a case at the European Court of Justice. States are "immune" to such civil claims, Berlin's lawyers successfully argued.

Italians were outraged, and the German government made an effort to show some understanding. "The unresolved World War past holds some potential to strain German-Italian relations," said Michael Steiner, who was the German Ambassador to Rome at the time. But morality and justice must not be confused, he said. In an attempt to calm the situation, a historical commission was appointed to begin an "intensive, trusting dialogue."
This Wednesday when the report was presented, German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle said that he deeply regretted the "terrible war crimes" committed by the Germans in Italy. He also expressed an understanding for the anger of the Italian public over the ruling in the case against the murders in von Sant'Anna di Stazzema, he said.

There are now plans to erect a memorial at the site of the forced labor camp in Berlin's Niederschöneweide district to honor the fate of Italian soldiers captured by the Nazis. There is also be a small memorial created in Italy.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 74024.html


Note that they do not say anything about partisans or reprisals. An elegant way to portray somesthing that is within the customs of war as "war crimes"

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Re: War Crimes Report Estimates 165 Murders Per Day

Postby Mkk » 1 decade 5 months ago (Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:20 am)

So that equals about 100,000 murders (probably better put in quotation marks), at 165 a day. (165 times 20 months times 30 days a month.)

I am skeptical of the extent of some of these massacres. For example, one town carries the names of around 1800 people allegedly killed there by Germans. But it was found that some of the people on the list were still alive as of the early 60s. They also included all war dead, soldiers, dead from allied bombing raids, dead partisans and even dead Austrian POWs.

Here is a German book on the subject: archive.org/details/DerFallMarzabotto

And exactely how does breakdown of the numbers go? How many dead prisoners from starvation etc.? How many civilians killed in (legal) reprisals, or skimirshes with partisans? I suspect a lot of these people weren't murdered, but rather just died.

You're right in pointing out the partisan issue. I remember reading that that massacre of over 300 men in the cave near Rome, most of the people killed were communists, some partisans, who had been taken hostage. It was not just random civilians.
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Re: War Crimes Report Estimates 165 Murders Per Day

Postby Hektor » 1 decade 5 months ago (Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:49 am)

Mkk wrote:So that equals about 100,000 murders (probably better put in quotation marks), at 165 a day. (165 times 20 months times 30 days a month.)

Which would add up to quite some mass-graves yet known of them is shown to tourists or was part of any investigation.
Mkk wrote:I am skeptical of the extent of some of these massacres. For example, one town carries the names of around 1800 people allegedly killed there by Germans. But it was found that some of the people on the list were still alive as of the early 60s. They also included all war dead, soldiers, dead from allied bombing raids, dead partisans and even dead Austrian POWs.
Alleged massacres. The nomenclature they use is actually an attempt to emotionally set the playing field. Who sorts the cards, wins the game.
Mkk wrote:Here is a German book on the subject: archive.org/details/DerFallMarzabotto

This link http://archive.org/details/DerFallMarzabotto ? OK.
Mkk wrote:And exactely how does breakdown of the numbers go? How many dead prisoners from starvation etc.? How many civilians killed in (legal) reprisals, or skimirshes with partisans? I suspect a lot of these people weren't murdered, but rather just died.
No investigation - no facts. The modus operandi of the Communist-Sympathizers is to spread all kinds of horrific stories, non of them testable. Then they try pick up on someone via a trial. The trial is based on their allegations and a media campaign is launched to stir up emotions pressuring the judges and trial participants. Alleged witnessed, coached communists and village idiots, will be heard at the trial. They can't point to any wrong doing of the accused, unless they are lying. Yet the accused will be found guilty, since he was enlisted with that unit. Of course that is a juristical farce, but with the enormity and emotional pressure on the judges they will comply to that.
Mkk wrote:You're right in pointing out the partisan issue. I remember reading that that massacre of over 300 men in the cave near Rome, most of the people killed were communists, some partisans, who had been taken hostage. It was not just random civilians.
I think that is the Priebke case, if I am not mistaken. Given that Italy betrayed Germany and then turned against the Germans by backstabbing, I am sure the reprisals were more then justified in the eyes of most German soldiers at that time. Anyway this was war custom and an accepted practice, something that the mudslinger brigade avoids to mention.

No real proof is given for the massacre allegations, but they can swim on Holocaust mythology. In return those allegations legitimize the Holocaust mythology. The one lie lends credibility to the other.

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Re: War Crimes Report Estimates 165 Murders Per Day

Postby Mkk » 1 decade 5 months ago (Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:04 pm)

Which would add up to quite some mass-graves yet known of them is shown to tourists or was part of any investigation.

Exactely. The mass graves of (reportedly) 100,000 people have been discovered in Slovenia - and some have been unearthed.

Alleged massacres.

I said "extent". I won't deny that many people were killed in reprisal, and, I suspect. in skirmishes with partisans. But many 10000s of thousands being killed requires proof.

The nomenclature they use is actually an attempt to emotionally set the playing field.

Notice this in the article's use of "Men, women and babies" not "men women and children" or just "people". Ofcourse no (alleged) killing of children needs to be played down, but using such a word for young people who were by no means all exceptionally young (unless they passed over all the toddlers and adolescents).


Yes, that one. My internet filter annoyingly blocks Archive, so I salvaged what I could of the url from the block screen.

No investigation - no facts.

There's been recent news stories about probes into German war crimes in Italy being dropped for lack of evidence, too.

village idiots

What do you think of the eyewitness quoted in the article? He seems rather close to Jewish "my whole family was wiped out" liars.
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Re: War Crimes Report Estimates 165 Murders Per Day

Postby Hektor » 1 decade 5 months ago (Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:50 pm)

Mkk wrote:
Which would add up to quite some mass-graves yet none of them is shown to tourists or was part of any investigation.

Exactely. The mass graves of (reportedly) 100,000 people have been discovered in Slovenia - and some have been unearthed.
For example.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... venia.html
http://www.jpost.com/International/Arti ... ?id=195542
Are there any corresponding graves in italy?
Mkk wrote:
Alleged massacres.

I said "extent". I won't deny that many people were killed in reprisal, and, I suspect. in skirmishes with partisans. But many 10000s of thousands being killed requires proof.
Of course, and just finding remains of a few people being shot or dying as result of explosions doesn't lend credence to the massacre allegations.
Mkk wrote:
The nomenclature they use is actually an attempt to emotionally set the playing field.

Notice this in the article's use of "Men, women and babies" not "men women and children" or just "people". Ofcourse no (alleged) killing of children needs to be played down, but using such a word for young people who were by no means all exceptionally young (unless they passed over all the toddlers and adolescents).

If the partisans hid behind civilians, casualties among are to be expected.
Mkk wrote:
No investigation - no facts.

There's been recent news stories about probes into German war crimes in Italy being dropped for lack of evidence, too.

Actually in some of the cases there was evidence that they COULD NOT have occured at all, because the unit wasn't there.
Mkk wrote:
village idiots

What do you think of the eyewitness quoted in the article? He seems rather close to Jewish "my whole family was wiped out" liars.

They are, I recall a video of one with the "witness" rolling his eyes to the side all the time. I am not an expert, but I remembert that this kind of eye movement indicates "creating information" in contrast with "recollecting information". So maybe he wasn't even coached that well.

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Re: War Crimes Report Estimates 165 Murders Per Day

Postby Mkk » 1 decade 5 months ago (Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:48 pm)

Are there any corresponding graves in italy?

None I've ever seen reported - and the media would jump on any Nazi mass grave that was found.

They say the bodies of those people killed in the cave are still buried there ; have the bodies been actually shown?

I have requested a poster on another forum who seems knowledgeable on these alleged massacres to join us here. He told me about that Marzabotto hoax. He also regards most of the other massacres to be communists inventions, saying that usually civilians who died were caught up in partisan fights.
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Re: War Crimes Report Estimates 165 Murders Per Day

Postby MCP3 » 1 decade 5 months ago (Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:30 pm)

Here are the first holes that i see without having done any further research.

1. The article does not mention that Northern Italy kept to be Fascist and Mussolini. The IRS. It was policed by Italian Police and the Blackshirts, the paramilitary party guard of Mussolini. Only in cases they could not solve themselves they called German (SS-) units to their aid.

Image
Map of the area under control of the Italian Social Republic (RSI) as of 1943. Areas in green were under direct German control

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Social_Republic

And all of the mentioned atrocities happened to have happened on the RSI territory which was run by Mussolini loyalists.

I think Reuters deliberately left that out, and the Germans did likely won the mentioned past lawsuit as they could prove that they were called in by the Italian authorities (which today's Italy doesn't wish to mentioned , thus in denial of their own Fascist past and rather wants to imitate Poland or Israel in claiming the victim status. They did argue in that lawsuit that Mussolini was a puppet of Hitler, therefor Hitler is to blame for the civil war like violence in Northern Italy 1943-47 , thus even after the end of the war, between then pro-Western and pro-Communist "resistance").

2. The daily "death toll" seem to include the some of the victims of Allied bombing ("Hitler's fault as he occupied us over his puppet Mussolini"). And Northern Italy was severely bombed, as all communication and supply for the front South of Rome had to pass through it .(e.g. Anzio Battle, Monte Cassino battle etc). Also it is the industrial part of Italy, and it continued to work for the Axis (Germans) until spring 1945.

3. Northern Italy has a strong communist underground, and after WW2 the second strongest Communist Party in parliament, only out numbered by France. Civil War like excesses 1943-45 between Fascists/Blackshirts and Communists, after May 9, 1945 between pro-Western forces and Communists. Maybe that too is blamed summarily on the Germans.

4. Italian PM Berlusconi is an ardent Zionist , and supports the idea that Israel should become EU member. Italy itself is thoroughly corrupt and bankrupt, Mafia run on the local level (the other great victim of Mussolini's Fascist order, next to jews and communist is organized crime: The Italian Mafia was eradicated and actually survived WW2 only because of it's US branch).

In point 4 you have a possible motive why they bring this up now.

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Re: War Crimes Report Estimates 165 Murders Per Day

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 months ago (Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:39 pm)

- A more one sided "report" one could never experience. Also, review the source publication and who they are, what is their world view, what are their political connections?

historical commission assigned the task of exploring the full extent of Nazi war crimes committed in Italy in World War II.

- A commission to explore the "the full extent of Nazi war crimes committed in Italy". Now what is in this 'commission's' interest to find? Their charge reflects a severe degree of bias from the very beginning. They are not called 'historical commission assigned the task of exploring the possibility of Nazi war crimes committed in Italy'.

There have already been some solid opinions expressed in this thread, here's some quick, random takes on this.

- Let's remember, the Italians are all too eager to dodge the fact that they were allied with Germany until the end period of the war. Think about how little we hear about Ethiopia and Italy's other bungled military adventures these days. With German allies like the Italians, who needed enemies? So any stories we hear about 'heroic' Italy have more than likely been massaged beyond all truth. The commission is not called 'historical commission assigned the task of exploring Italian war crimes committed in Italy'.

- The end of the war was no secret. Why would Germans engage in prosecutable 'war crimes' knowing without a doubt that they were beat? The point was made about the legal executions of terrorists, which makes sense given the communist savagery.

- Then there's the quack "historian" who "estimates" all these deaths for a period of almost 2 years. Got proof? Got corpses? The knucklehead is just making stuff up. He says:
The massacre was on the whole thoroughly organized and followed tight military procedure

Oh really, got orders? Got military procedure documents?

- So what is the evidence? A few alleged, very old Italians, who themselves may have been part of the communist terrorist/partisan network at the time. Does anyone really expect them to tell the truth? I would love to see them cross examined in a legit court of law by determined defense lawyers. It's my feeling the accusers wouldn't have a chance.

- The Germans may have finally stood their ground on this one, but perhaps for a purpose. Germany knows there's a 'can-of-worms' here. Without the protection of 'judicial notice', like the 'gas chambers', 'eyewitnesses' could be challenged vigorously, unlike the 'gas chambers' nonsense. That would be a major problem for the vested interests. Once the 'eyewitnesses' are exposed as liars, the public will start to catch on and ask far too many other questions.

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Re: War Crimes Report Estimates 165 Murders Per Day

Postby Mkk » 1 decade 5 months ago (Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:25 pm)

I bet the "original sources" mentioned in the Reuters article are infact transcripts from communist show trials.
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Re: War Crimes Report Estimates 165 Murders Per Day

Postby MCP3 » 1 decade 5 months ago (Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:32 am)

Mkk wrote:I bet the "original sources" mentioned in the Reuters article are infact transcripts from communist show trials.


No, not necessarily. But it is in fact mythical for the suffering of the Communist Party and the "resistance" under Fascism.
Kind of like Guernica or Oradour.

I see however the same modus operandi as we are used from the holocaust question. Something terrible happened (the two out of bound reprisals by notorious 16th SS "RF-SS" known as the Marzabotto and St.Anna atrocities ) , and this is enlarged
into bizarro heights and "repeated over and over" until it sinks in the public mind, creating the impression that this happened daily all over Axis Europe. They bring this up every few years since the 1950s in the International Media, including portrayal in films and novels.

As said, the Reuter article starts with an emotional and very descriptive image , thus the average reader is already emotionally caught and broken when it comes to the main part.

The English Wikipedia entry does not tell much about 16th SS (thus one has to read the division history to understand what happened)
Formed in November 1943 when Volksdeutsche recruits were added to the Sturmbrigade Reichsführer SS, which was used as the cadre in the formation of the new division.

A Kampfgruppe ("combat group") from the division fought at the Anzio beachhead, while the rest of the division took part in the occupation of Hungary. It fought in Italy as a division from May 1944, until being transferred to Hungary in February 1945. In late summer 1944, while retreating towards the Gothic Line positions in the Appennini mountains, some units of this division committed atrocities against civilians in Sant'Anna di Stazzema and Marzabotto. A Kampfgruppe of the 16th Training and Replacement Battalion was based in Arnhem and took part in Operation Market Garden.

The division surrendered to British forces near Klagenfurt, Austria at the end of the war

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16th_SS_Panzergrenadier_Division_Reichsf%C3%BChrer-SS

One has to understand that the cadre personal was from Himmler's personal bodyguard unit "SS Sturmbrigade Reichsführer SS" which implies that these guys had little patience when ambushed by Communists or "Resistance" , even if the attackers are citizen of a supposed friendly nation, namely Mussolini's RSI.
Image
Coat of Arms of Repubblica Sociale Italiana, RSI.
The fall of the Fascist regime in Italy and the disbandment of the MVSN saw the establishment of the Republican National Guard (Guardia Nazionale Repubblicana or GNR), and the emergence of the Black Brigades (brigate nere). The forty Black Brigades consisted of former MVSN, former Carabinieri, former soldiers, former Italian Africa Police, and others still loyal to the Fascist cause. Alongside their Nazi and Schutzstaffel (SS) counterparts, the Black Brigades committed many atrocities in their fight against the Italian resistance movement and political enemies. On 15 August 1944, the GNR became a part of the Army

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Social_Republic
So the RSI alone had 40 Brigades of RNG Blackshirts for domestic security operations. The reason was, as outlined in previous post, that on the day Mussolini was overthrown the Communists , well armed and organized , tried to size power. Previously they did hide in the underground , waiting on day X, or "Day of Liberation" which they intended to use for their own purpose, namely to size power before the Western Allies would appoint or impose some pro-Western Christian Democrats onto them. Thus Northern Italy was in state of anarchy and revolution when the Germans, who reacted quickly within a week, arrived to set in the old Fascist administrations on local level. And yes there were firefights in Milano and Turin, the Communists would not back down so easily.
This explains why the RSI needed 40 brigades (at least 120 battalions) of RNG-Blackshirts for domestic security , and the Communist uprise under control. And of course the underground was aided by the Allies, who were already in Sicily and Southern Italy,.

Image

Image
Formations of 16th SS Pz.Gren.Div "RF-SS" arrive in Rome (as a demonstration of a power and to set in the old Fascist administration which had been previously ousted when Mussolini was dismissed by King Victor Emanuel II, who then fled along with General Badoglio to Allied controlled Southern Italy).

To the atrocities:
On the morning of August 12, 1944, the 2nd Battalion of SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 35 of 16th SS Panzergrenadier Division Reichsführer-SS, commanded by SS-Hauptsturmführer Anton Galler, entered Sant'Anna and rounded up hundreds of local villagers and refugees, locking them up in several barns and stables. The civilians (mostly women, children and older men, as the able-bodied men of the village fled into the woods) were then killed in groups with machine guns in the open air and with hand grenades in basements; the soldiers then set fire to the corpses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sant%27Anna_di_Stazzema_massacre
Sounds familiar, doesn't it?
As it has been heard "over and over again" in the past 50-70 years in the media.

So what happened to the Divison commander SS Brigadefuehrer Max Simon ?
In December 1942 Simon was promoted again to Brigadeführer (Major General), prior to being given command of the 16th SS Panzergrenadier Division Reichsführer-SS.

This new Waffen SS division would be formed in Hungary from Simon's old regiment and the Sturmbrigade Reichsführer SS.
In July 1944 the division was moved to Italy, and fought, never complete, at Anzio and later in the Arno sector, where it gained a reputation for stability although it suffered heavy losses during the battles in the Apennines.The division also fought against partisans in the Rückraum area, perpetrating several major atrocities against the civilians,(Sant'Anna di Stazzema massacre and Marzabotto massacre).
...
On 1 May 1945 the Corps surrendered to the American forces.

After the war, Max Simon was sentenced to death by a British court for his part in the Marzabotto massacre. This sentence was later changed to life imprisonment. Simon was pardoned in 1954 and released from prison.

Max Simon died on 1 February 1961 at Lünen



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Simon

The atrocities are very popular and have been exploited by media/novels, such as the 2008 film
"Miracle at St.Anna"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_at_St._Anna

^ SS Massacre: A conspiracy of silence is broken, The Guardian, 2 July 2004
^ Tiny Town Lost in Tides of History, The New York Times, April 18, 2004
^ 10 former Nazis convicted of Tuscan massacre, The Guardian, 23 June 2005
^ 'Haunted' SS veteran stands trial for massacre of the innocents in village, The Telegraph, 01 Jul 2004
^ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/0 ... 28596.html
^ http://www.stripes.com/mobile/news/euro ... e-1.191574

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Re: War Crimes Report Estimates 165 Murders Per Day

Postby Mkk » 1 decade 5 months ago (Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:38 am)

I wonder if some of these "German" atrocities were actually committed by partisans in German uniforms. Several sources state this to be have been popular in other countries.

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t934081/#post10841190
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Re: War Crimes Report Estimates 165 Murders Per Day

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 months ago (Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:17 pm)

On Max Simon:
The division also fought against partisans in the Rückraum area, perpetrating several major atrocities against the civilians,(Sant'Anna di Stazzema massacre and Marzabotto massacre).

Notice how the story refers to "partisans" (aka: communist terrorists) and the switches to "civilians". These "civilians" were not true civilians. They were non-uniformed communist terrorists and legally subject to execution under international law.
I always find it revealing how the communists and their mass murdering histories are protected by the media and so called 'academia'. Although off topic to this forum, it is the protection of communists which has been big factor in marketing the bogus 'holocaust' storyline.

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Re: War Crimes Report Estimates 165 Murders Per Day

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 months ago (Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:23 pm)

Mkk wrote:I wonder if some of these "German" atrocities were actually committed by partisans in German uniforms. Several sources state this to be have been popular in other countries.

Indeed, recall the Katyn massacres and other known & excavated mass grave sites perpetuated by the communists, but the Germans were accused.

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Re: War Crimes Report Estimates 165 Murders Per Day

Postby Hektor » 1 decade 5 months ago (Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:13 pm)

Hannover wrote:- A more one sided "report" one could never experience. Also, review the source publication and who they are, what is their world view, what are their political connections?

historical commission assigned the task of exploring the full extent of Nazi war crimes committed in Italy in World War II.

- A commission to explore the "the full extent of Nazi war crimes committed in Italy". Now what is in this 'commission's' interest to find? Their charge reflects a severe degree of bias from the very beginning. They are not called 'historical commission assigned the task of exploring the possibility of Nazi war crimes committed in Italy'.
...

Found an older Spiegel Article from 1967. While the undertone is already accusing.
http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-46409231.html
Im Herbst 1944 hatten italienische Partisanen im Raum von Bologna deutsche Soldaten getötet. Ein 14jähriger Junge, der mit einer Pistole aufgegriffen wurde, bezeichnete Marzabotto als Hauptquartier der Partisanen-Brigade "Stella Rossa" (Roter Stern)....Deutsche Verbände umstellten den Ort und schossen ihn, als Widerstand geleistet wurde, mit Flakgeschützen zusammen. Ein Teil der Brigade "Stella Rossa" wurde gefangengenommen, auch ihr Chef Mario Musolesi, genannt "Il Lupo" (Der Wolf).
Someone pointed to Marzabotto as the headquarter of Stella Rossa partisans. Germans encircled the town, and when there was resistance, the town was shot down with flak-guns. Assuming that the communist partisans were hiding behind civilians that would mean, that civilians also died. This part seems to be credible, except that it wasn't Marzabotto itself were the action took place, it was just at a village in that area.

Nach den Kämpfen übten die Deutschen Rache an der Zivilbevölkerung. Kinder und Frauen starben auf dem Friedhof unter MG-Salven. Zahlreiche Familien verbrannten in ihren Häusern, die erst verbarrikadiert und dann mit Flammenwerfern angezündet wurden. Insgesamt kamen 1830 Zivilisten ums Leben.
After the battle, it is alleged, civilians were killed with MG's and people were burned in their houses. total Civilians killed: 1830. Now that's the disputed part.

Ritterkreuzträger Walter Reder aus Linz kommandierte die Aufklärungsabteilung der -- im russischen Partisanenkampf geschulten -- 16. SS-Panzergrenadier-Division, die zu den Marzabotto-Einheiten gehörte. Welchen Anteil Reder persönlich an dem Massaker hatte, ist bis heute nicht ganz geklärt.
Reder commanded the reconnaissance unit of the 16th SS division. It's not clear what his personal involvement was. That's misleading. It is known that he, as handicapped person that lost his arm, was commanding the unit from further away. For any involvement of course, there first needs to be a massacre.

Here it gets interesting
Im ersten Reder-Prozeß, der 1951 vor einem Militärgericht In Bologna stattfand, waren Entlastungszeugen nicht zugelassen, Das Gericht behinderte die Verteidiger und lehnte es ab, den Prozeß an einen neutralen Ort zu verlegen.
In the first Reder trial 1951 no defense witnesses were allowed. The court obstructed the defense and refused to place the trial to a neutral location. This clearly shows that the whole thing was nothing but a show trial with no judicial value. Now this is an interesting admission by "der Spiegel", but remember they wrote this 40 years ago.

Vor Gericht berief sich der österreichische SS-Offizier auf Befehlsnotstand. Die Vernichtung Marzabottos sei für ihn eine rein militärische Aktion gewesen: "Wo gehobelt wird, da fallen Späne."
Reder said it was a military action. Again misleading statement regarding Marzabotto.

Die Militärrichter von Bologna sprachen Reder am 31. Oktober 1951 in drei von acht Hauptanklagepunkten schuldig und verurteilten ihn zu lebenslangem Zuchthaus. Im Revisionsprozeß billigte ihm das oberste Militärgericht in den Freispruch-Punkten statt mangelnden Beweises erwiesene Unschuld zu, bestätigte aber die lebenslange Haft.
The "court" found him guilty in three of eight accusations. Life sentence, revision court admits proven innocence of some points, but upholds the sentence.

There was a revision-trial in 1954, too, dismissing the sentence. I just didn't find more details on this.

Im überfüllten "Cinema Moderno" von Marzabotto tagte der Gemeinderat in öffentlicher Sondersitzung. Einziger Punkt der Tagesordnung: Reders Brief. Von Pardon war keine Rede. KP-Bürgermeister Bottonelli: "Sein Schicksal muß als Mahnung dienen."

There is an admission that the Marzabotto Mayor was a Communist.

Also interesting from the wikipedia entry:
Reder expressed profound repentance in a December 1984 letter to the citizens of Marzabotto, was released from prison on 24 January 1985, and promptly relocated to Vienna. Soon after arriving there (and he was received with full military honours by the then-Minister of Defense of Austria), he was quick to retract his apology to the Italian people, stating explicitly that he had pronounced such words of apology solely to exploit a political opportunity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Reder
Not sure about those "repentance letters", this is mentioned elsewhere, but I don't know about the content or number of letters written. They are important as further source.


Also check the "talk" on wiki. This is often quite revealing concerning the state of the public debate.

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Re: War Crimes Report Estimates 165 Murders Per Day

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 months ago (Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:29 pm)

In the first Reder trial 1951 no defense witnesses were allowed. The court obstructed the defense and refused to place the trial to a neutral location. This clearly shows that the whole thing was nothing but a show trial with no judicial value. Now this is an interesting admission by "der Spiegel", but remember they wrote this 40 years ago.

There is an admission that the Marzabotto Mayor was a Communist.


And ...shot down a town with 'flak guns'? Say what? That seems a bit absurd to me. Flak guns are aerial defense weapons. Are there photos of this 'shot down town'?

Nice work, Hektor.

- H.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


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