NEW Considerations on Treblinka and the AR Camps

[Iris]

BF:

There are no documents which tell us how many Jews ended up at TII. Simple.

Did I ever say otherwise?

Are there documents which tell us how many jews ended up at a camp along the Treblinka line west of Treblinka?

Are there any documents which tell us how many jews ended up at a camp east of Treblinka?

I'll repeat this:

BF missed this part because I was editing my post while he posted his:

You insist that there were labor camps along the Treblinka line and you insist jews who were being transited east got off at these c;amps. You insist that this is a fact.

Foundational fact #1:

Can it be proven, beyond any reasonable doubt, that at least one jew within the Treblinka watershed was put on a train and transited east along the Treblinka line toward the area generally known as Treblinka?

The number of jews in the Treblinka watershed who were put on trains and transited east along the Treblinka line, has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt by PR and BF, to be no less than?

[Butterfangers]

BF:

My hypothesis is that you do not know how many Jews disembarked at these labor camps,

BF, how many Jews disembarked at these labor camps?

X number of Jews disembarked at these labor camps. Now if we consider the 900,000 or so who are historically said to have been either killed in or transited via TII, that gives us the following equation:

~900,000 - X = Y

Iris, please define Y, because that is the number you are claiming were transited further east.

Is Y = 1,000 ?
Is Y = 20,000 ?
Is Y = 150,000 ?
Is Y = 200,000 ?
Is Y = 500,000 ?
Is Y = 750,000 ?
Is Y = 850,000 ?

Please, no dodging.

Note that if I were arguing with an exterminationist on this point, I would ask them the same question.

Can it be proven, beyond any reasonable doubt, that at least one jew within the Treblinka watershed was put on a train and transited east along the Treblinka line toward the area generally known as Treblinka?

The number of jews in the Treblinka watershed who were put on trains and transited east along the Treblinka line, has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt by PR and BF, to be no less than?

I do not know to what extent it is "proven, beyond any reasonable doubt" that any number of Jews ended up in Treblinka. I know there are reports as such, some dubious, some more reliable than others. That is the extent of my knowledge.

Let's take a look at the questions you have dodged thus far (other than those I provided above, which you will also dodge):

How many Jews can you prove ever set foot in TII at all?

...how about you tell us what you feel the significance of these labor camps en route toward Treblinka are, Iris?

Why do you seem to deflect from the obvious significance of these camps? What are your intentions in this regard?

Iris, why did the trains packed with laborers make lengthy stops (an hour or more) at each of the stops with labor camps en route toward "Treblinka"? Why did they stop there for so long, Iris? ...Remember, your explanation needs to explain the fact that these trains made these stops. You need to explain why. Were they loading some other type of non-human cargo? Were the train conductors very lazy, preferred to nap at each station? Please, be reasonable.

How many Jews can you prove, in fact, arrived at TII? Even just a ballpark estimate, perhaps? ...Was it 100? 1,000? 10,000? 100,000?

You admit, you "don't know". No one does, and less so now than ever. There once were some documents that were thought to provide some approximation of arrivals (at TII), at least. Now there are none. ...Why don't you address this?

We had documents which all parties (Revisionists, exterminationists) accepted as valid in showing how many Jews made it to TII. Those documents are now essentially useless for evidence as such.... Will you admit this? If so, will you then describe how this affects the establishment and Revisionist narratives?

Iris, do you collect farts in a jar for "emergencies"?

Please, no dodging.

[Iris]

X number of Jews disembarked at these labor camps. Now if we consider the 900,000 or so who are historically said to have been either killed in or transited via TII, that gives us the following equation:

~900,000 - X = Y

Iris, please define Y, because that is the number you are claiming were transited further east.

Is Y = 1,000 ?
Is Y = 20,000 ?
Is Y = 150,000 ?
Is Y = 200,000 ?
Is Y = 500,000 ?
Is Y = 750,000 ?
Is Y = 850,000 ?

Please, no dodging.

Note that if I were arguing with an exterminationist on this point, I would ask them the same question.

Show me where I claimed a number of jews were transited further east. Exact quote please.

BF:

how about you tell us what you feel the significance of these labor camps en route toward Treblinka are, Iris?

Are you talking about the ones that you have proven exist?

How many was that BTW?

[Iris]

Iris:

Butterfangers, can you prove that at least one jew who was put on a train on the Treblinka line heading east but never made it further east than Treblinka?

BF:

Yes,

Iris:

Can it be proven, beyond any reasonable doubt, that at least one jew within the Treblinka watershed was put on a train and transited east along the Treblinka line toward the area generally known as Treblinka?

The number of jews in the Treblinka watershed who were put on trains and transited east along the Treblinka line, has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt by PR and BF, to be no less than?

Butterfangers:

I do not know to what extent it is "proven, beyond any reasonable doubt" that any number of Jews ended up in Treblinka.

Dodge.

[Butterfangers]

Show me where I claimed a number of jews were transited further east. Exact quote please.

You have not claimed a number which is why I asked you to "define Y", above.

You have avoided making clear your views on much of any of this because, frankly, it is obvious you are incapable of defending your position. Thus, your strategy is to conceal your position altogether. One who remains in a "turtle shell" and does not subject his views to criticism is one who can portray an impression of being in-control in a debate, acting as an aggressor, though not due to any superior ideas.

You were exposed early on in this thread for this tactic. Six pages deep and it still isn't clear what, exactly, you believe. Please answer the questions listed above, most of which are from at least 1-2 pages ago.

[Iris]

Show me where I claimed a number of jews were transited further east. Exact quote please.

You have not claimed a number which is why I asked you to "define Y", above.

You have avoided making clear your views on much of any of this because, frankly, it is obvious you are incapable of defending your position. Thus, your strategy is to conceal your position altogether. One who remains in a "turtle shell" and does not subject his views to criticism is one who can portray an impression of being in-control in a debate, acting as an aggressor, though not due to any superior ideas.

You were exposed early on in this thread for this tactic. Six pages deep and it still isn't clear what, exactly, you believe. Please answer the questions listed above, most of which are from at least 1-2 pages ago.

Your exact words were: "Iris, please define Y, because that is the number you are claiming were transited further east.

BF, can it be proven, beyond any reasonable doubt, that at least one jew within the Treblinka watershed was put on a train and transited east along the Treblinka line toward the area generally known as Treblinka?

BF, the number of jews in the Treblinka watershed who were put on trains and transited east along the Treblinka line, has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt by you and PR, to be no less than?

Butterfangers, can you prove that at least one jew who was put on a train on the Treblinka line heading east but never made it further east than Treblinka?

BF:

Yes,

So your answer to this question:

BF, can it be proven, beyond any reasonable doubt, that at least one jew within the Treblinka watershed was put on a train and transited east along the Treblinka line toward the area generally known as Treblinka?

Is yes as well.

Not this one BF:

BF, the number of jews in the Treblinka watershed who were put on trains and transited east along the Treblinka line, has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt by you and PR, to be no less than?

[Butterfangers]

Your exact words were: "Iris, please define Y, because that is the number you are claiming were transited further east.

Perhaps I was wrong to assume that you hold the view that the labor camps en route toward Treblinka are insignificant (although without this assumption, I run into trouble explaining what exactly you are challenging me on since, once again, you do not define your own views at all).

I'd rather not go through the trouble of tallying up how many of your questions I have answered thus far but, needless to say, I have answered FAR more of yours than you have of mine. We need to even things out before moving forward.

I look forward to your responses.

[Iris]

Your exact words were: "Iris, please define Y, because that is the number you are claiming were transited further east.

Perhaps I was wrong to assume that you hold the view that the labor camps en route toward Treblinka are insignificant (although without this assumption, I run into trouble explaining what exactly you are challenging me on since, once again, you do not define your own views at all).

I'd rather not go through the trouble of tallying up how many of your questions I have answered thus far but, needless to say, I have answered FAR more of yours than you have of mine. We need to even things out before moving forward.

I look forward to your responses.

BF, the number of jews in the Treblinka watershed who were put on trains and transited east along the Treblinka line, has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt by you and PR, to be no less than?

Butterfangers, can it be proven, beyond any reasonable doubt, that at least one jew within the Treblinka watershed was put on a train and transited east along the Treblinka line toward the area generally known as Treblinka?

Butterfangers answer to this question is yes, as can be seen in the following question / answer:


Iris:

Butterfangers, can you prove that at least one jew who was put on a train on the Treblinka line heading east but never made it further east than Treblinka?

Butterfangers:

Yes,

Iris:

Butterfangers, has it ever been proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, that at least one jew actually set foot inside the camp known as TII?

BF:

I will say, firmly: I am not aware of said proof regarding any detail of any Jews setting foot in TII.

Butterfangers, has it ever been proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the camp known as TII actually exists or at least existed at one time?
Top

Butterfangers, were these jews that you insist were put on trains and transited eastward toward Treblinka, and disembarked along the way; were they magically disappearing jews?

[Nazgul]

BF, the number of jews in the Treblinka watershed who were put on trains and transited east along the Treblinka line, has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt by you and PR, to be no less than?

Butterfangers, can you prove that at least one jew who was put on a train on the Treblinka line heading east but never made it further

On another forum a poster known as "Robert" said:

#1 - It has been conclusively proven that no less than __?__ jews actually set foot within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp.



#2 - It has been conclusively proven that no less than __?__ jews were transited through the Treblinka II camp.



#3 - It has been conclusively proven that no less than __?__ jews were murdered within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp.



#4 - It has been conclusively proven that no less than __?__ jews were gassed within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp.



#5 - It has been conclusively proven that no less than __?__ jews were shot within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp.



#6 - It has been conclusively proven that no less than __?__ jews were buried within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp.



#7 - It has been conclusively proven that no less than __?__ "huge pits" were dug within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp and utilized as mass graves.



#8 - It has been conclusively proven that no less than __?__ "huge pits" were dug within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp and utilized as trash pits.



#9 - It has been conclusively proven that no less than __?__ mass graves currently exist within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp.



#10 - It has been conclusively proven that the following "eyewitnesses" told the truth about mass graves within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp:

In previous incarnations of the same forum this same poster appeared in many forms. I believe this is the same poster. The questioning style is identical. This thread has been derailed it seems. Could we get back onto the topic "Butterfangers" started which was to discuss the possibility of Jews disembarking at the sites of labour camps along the same routes as states in Fplo documents.

[Iris]

BF, the number of jews in the Treblinka watershed who were put on trains and transited east along the Treblinka line, has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt by you and PR, to be no less than?

Butterfangers, can you prove that at least one jew who was put on a train on the Treblinka line heading east but never made it further

On another forum a poster known as "Robert" said:

#1 - It has been conclusively proven that no less than __?__ jews actually set foot within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp.



#2 - It has been conclusively proven that no less than __?__ jews were transited through the Treblinka II camp.



#3 - It has been conclusively proven that no less than __?__ jews were murdered within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp.



#4 - It has been conclusively proven that no less than __?__ jews were gassed within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp.



#5 - It has been conclusively proven that no less than __?__ jews were shot within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp.



#6 - It has been conclusively proven that no less than __?__ jews were buried within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp.



#7 - It has been conclusively proven that no less than __?__ "huge pits" were dug within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp and utilized as mass graves.



#8 - It has been conclusively proven that no less than __?__ "huge pits" were dug within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp and utilized as trash pits.



#9 - It has been conclusively proven that no less than __?__ mass graves currently exist within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp.



#10 - It has been conclusively proven that the following "eyewitnesses" told the truth about mass graves within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp:

In previous incarnations of the same forum this same poster appeared in many forms. I believe this is the same poster. The questioning style is identical. This thread has been derailed it seems. Could we get back onto the topic "Butterfangers" started which was to discuss the possibility of Jews disembarking at the sites of labour camps along the same routes as states in Fplo documents.

Those are good questions. Did anyone answer them?

The OP in this thread reads:

Please pardon the "NEW" in the title if I have somehow missed that this topic is already being discussed elsewhere in the forum but it was definitely new to me and I want to ensure it is brought further into the Revisionist sphere of discussion as it seems like a critical advancement on the topic of Treblinka and the AR camps and the looming question of "where did they [Jews] go?".

And in Butterfangers own words:

The hypothesis being put forth is that the question of "where did Jews [sent to Treblinka II] go" is perhaps irrelevant (or less relevant) as it can be argued that a majority of them never arrived at TII in the first place... Many or most, it would seem, departed at various labor camps along the way... There were stops all along that route... The topic I have raised here is the question of, what proportion of Jews---of those sent out of the ghettoes onto a train with the final destination listed as "Treblinka"---actually ever made it to Treblinka II at all... I cannot prove where anyone did or did not disembark from the trains, I can only say that evidence strongly suggests many (if not most) of them disembarked before ever getting as far as Treblinka.

And we are discussing " the possibility of Jews disembarking at the sites of labour camps." (He's already alleged that he can prove one did.)

In fact, we're waiting for him to answer these questions:

The number of jews in the Treblinka watershed who were put on trains and transited east along the Treblinka line, has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt by PR and BF, to be no less than?

Butterfangers, has it ever been proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the camp known as TII actually exists or at least existed at one time?

Butterfangers, were these jews that you insist were put on trains and transited eastward toward Treblinka, and disembarked along the way; were they magically disappearing jews?

I am asking BF these questions because he claims:

many (if not most) of them disembarked before ever getting as far as Treblinka.

[Nazgul]

Those are good questions. Did anyone answer them?

The link is provided so check yourself the quality of the answers. Previous incarnations of the same questions are no longer available, as those forums had issues.

I think the questions asked are important but seemingly off topic, which is to discuss the probability of Jews getting off transports at the various Zwangarbeitslager and major railways junction points mentioned in Fahrplananordnung with Treblinka as the final destination point.

I have provided evidence of the following in addition:

• Jews transiting out of Treblinka presumably TII to konzentrationslager.
• Jews transported to the Bobruysk SS camp near Minsk and returning.
• A Jew who left the Treblinka death camp to work in various Zwangarbeitslager.

This is still work in progress of course. Many of the Zwangarbeitslager were not known until quite recently. I linked these to Fahrplananordnung documents which were used as evidence of mass transportations to a place called Treblinka.

Butterfangers also reproduced the maps of camps on their westward trend as the war progressed. The exception being Zwangarbeitslager für Ungarische Juden in Österreich. (Hungarian Jews in Austria). Evidence was given that people did arrive at these camps with only a small proportion arriving at Birkenau.

[Iris]

Nazgul:

I think the questions asked are important but seemingly off topic, which is to discuss the probability of Jews getting off transports at the various Zwangarbeitslager and major railways junction points mentioned in Fahrplananordnung with Treblinka as the final destination point.

And that is what we are discussing. As Butterfangers himself wrote:

The topic I have raised here is the question of, what proportion of Jews---of those sent out of the ghettoes onto a train with the final destination listed as "Treblinka"---actually ever made it to Treblinka II at al

So we need to know the number of Jews who were actually put on a train within the Treblinka watershed. (Among other figures.)

Nazgul, how many jews are we talking about here? How many jews were actually put on trains and transited east.

What is our starting figure?

[Nazgul]

How many jews were actually put on trains and transited east.

What is our starting figure?

This thread intention is "Die Fahrplangestaltung, Zwangsarbeitslager für Juden und Treblinka als Endziel.".
The timetable design, forced labour camps for Jews and Treblinka as the final destination.

[Nazgul]

User "nazgul" at the new RODOH forum, in some of the posts there over recent months, has shared some analysis based on a German database which is currently still in development which, for the first time ever, maps out the thousands of additional Jewish internment sites (i.e. other than the well-known concentration camps and their satellites) for labor and detention of Jews and other groups. The project is the work of German Prof. Dr. Michael Fehr with the Karl Ernst Osthaus Museum, historian Cornelia Steinhauer and artist Sigrid Sigurdsson. From the website and database which is titled, simply, "List of national socialist camps and detention sites 1933 - 1945".

Excellent summation of my work. Danke schön
Is it possible to change the title to: die Fahrplangestaltung, Zwangsarbeitslager für Juden und Treblinka als Endziel. Or something shorter
This might prevent another future misinterpretation of this thread which has currently resulted in a derail; the white noise obscures the information. I suspect the content has enormous implications, which should obliterate the "where did they go" contretemps.

I suspect that Leon Rytz's account of his work at Zwangarbeitslager from TII or some other Treblinka camp is not a single event. It is this avenue of investigation that is worthy of further time. I will post here in due course any new findings.

[Iris]

How many jews were actually put on trains and transited east.

What is our starting figure?

This thread intention is "Die Fahrplangestaltung, Zwangsarbeitslager für Juden und Treblinka als Endziel.".
The timetable design, forced labour camps for Jews and Treblinka as the final destination.


...

This might prevent another future misinterpretation of this thread

There is no misinterpretation here Nazgul. According to the person who started this thread:

The topic I have raised here is the question of, what proportion of Jews---of those sent out of the ghettoes onto a train with the final destination listed as "Treblinka"---actually ever made it to Treblinka II at al

And his OP ends with:

the looming question of "where did they [Jews] go?".

And he added this:

The hypothesis being put forth is that the question of "where did Jews [sent to Treblinka II] go"

And this:

Many or most, it would seem, departed at various labor camps along the way... I can only say that evidence strongly suggests many (if not most) of them disembarked before ever getting as far as Treblinka.

And this:

[there is] zero evidence of any particular number (or range thereof) of Jews having ever arrived at TII.

And this:

FACT: The only rational explanation provided thus far for the lengthy stops at labor camps by a train filled with laborers is the departure/exchange of laborers.

FACT: We do not have hard, incontrovertible proof of precisely how many laborers disembarked (or onboarded) at each labor camp. Hence, it remains possible that "some, or many, or perhaps even most of them could have continued past Treblinka."

How many jews are we talking about here Nazgul? What is our starting figure?