The Devil Next Door (Netflix doc on Demjanjuk)

[Archie]

Has anyone else seen this? I have not found any discussion of it.

This is a short documentary series of five episodes. It was directed by two Israelis, Yossi Bloch and Daniel Sivan. I intended to only watch a little bit of it but I ended up finding it more interesting than I expected.

I was familiar with the general story on Demjanjuk (as I'm sure most here are). But I hadn't ever seen actual footage from the trials. It made it a lot more vivid. A lot of holocaust stuff I tend to find curious, even amusing, but watching this just made me angry. Finkelstein's Holocaust Industry is the only other Holocaust-related thing I can think of that angered me.

Although this was done by Israelis, I was surprised that they leave in a fair bit of material that's really rather embarrassing for them.

The best part is that it shows clips of several of the "survivor" testimonies. These guys swear up and and down very theatrically that Demjanjuk is without question Ivan the Terrible of Treblinka. One of them is Eliahu Rosenberg who'd also testified at the Eichmann trial. Rosenberg gives this really over the top performance only to be totally discredited later on. When asked to make the identification, Rosenberg says he wants to get up close and have Demjanjuk remove his glasses. And then he says, oh yes, those are the eyes of Ivan, I can never forgot those eyes! And blah, blah, blah. Quite the showman, this Rosenberg. But then later they found an account Rosenberg had penned shortly after the war wherein he claimed that he and the other prisoners had killed Ivan the Terrible in a revolt in 1943. The defense confronted him with it and Rosenberg had no real explanation. To their credit, the filmmakers do not try to cover for Rosenberg here; they simply leave him exposed as a total liar.

The issue of Demjanjuk's legal representation was also interesting. He started out with American lawyer Mark O'Connor who seems to have some right-wing symphathies (his father was apparently a strong anti-Communist). Once in Israel he got an Israeli to join the defense team, a very interesting character name Yoram Sheftel. Eventually Sheftel elbowed O'Connor out of the case. On the appeal another Israeli lawyer Dov Eitan had planned to join Sheftel but Eitan lept from a building to his death in what was ruled a suicide. And some fanatic threw acid in Sheftel's face.

There were lots of TV cameras and a room full of Israelis watching the proceedings. At the end of the initial trial, the court rules that Demjanjuk is indeed Ivan the Terrible of Treblinka and they sentence him to death. And you can see all the Jews going wild.

It also reveals some embarrassing things about the OSI, the "Nazi hunting" branch of the DOJ. Somebody started going through the OSI's trash and started sharing documents with the Demjanjuk family in hopes of finding evidence. And they ended up finding internal memos where OSI lawyers themselves expressed doubt about whether Demjanjuk was Ivan. They also put their thumb on the scale with the initial eyewitness identifications, i.e., the witnesses did not readily identify Demjanjuk but had to be prompted and nudged. That was the entire case, along with a likely forged ID card that was received from the KGB. There are segments with Eli Rosenbaum, longtime lawyer at OSI, who is just a big slimeball. It doesn't seem to bother him that OSI pursued a fraudulent case against Demjanjuk and withheld exculpatory evidence. After the initial verdict, new Soviet archives became available and the Israelis determined that this seriously undermined the case against Demjanjuk. The Israelis acquitted him and they declined to prosecute further. But Rosenbaum wasn't happy about that and went after Damjanjuk again for merely being at Sobibor during the war. It's pretty clear that the OSI framed this guy and served him up to the Israelis as Ivan so they could do their Eichmann trial sequel. The decent thing to do after it blew up in their face would be to leave the poor guy alone. Instead OSI went after him again and stripped him of his US citizenship for the second time and deported him to Germany for another trial. When I said this whole thing made me very angry, it was really Rosenbaum that did it more than anything.

Another thing I did not know that was touched on only briefly was that Pat Buchanan (Reagan's communications director at the time) publicly voiced support for Demjanjuk.

[PrudentRegret]

The Devil Next Door came out at about the time I really came around to Holocaust revisionism. Revisionism was a belief I was developing privately for awhile, and I had not discussed my shifting beliefs on this topic with anyone because I was insecure about it. I was worried about telling my wife because I know how strange it seems to take this position to someone who has not investigated this issue.

I suggested that we watch this series because I figured it would be a good segue for me to eventually confess my beliefs on this topic.

At the very beginning of the series, when a Jewish witness on the stand in the Israeli court was giving his tearful testimony about a little girl who survived a gassing at Treblinka and was crying, but was then shot by the Nazis and thrown into the burial pit, my wife turned to me and asked "Do you believe this happened?"

I was shocked, because I had never shared my developing doubts about the Holocaust. She simply did not believe the testimony in the Israeli court that was being shown in the Series. And not in the way "Oh it was so awful she could not believe it." She is a very empathetic person. She simply did not believe the lies spewing out of the mouths of the "witnesses" at the stand, and I was so pleasantly shocked. I confessed my doubt that any of this happened, and she perfectly understood that doubt after watching minutes of the footage of this trial.

She couldn't even finish the series. She was disturbed at the injustice of an old, law-abiding, blue-collar man being torn from his family, extradited, and thrown to Israeli kangaroo court. I didn't even have to convince her of my Revisionist perspective because The Devil Next Door angered her and made her skeptical of the Holocaust writ large.

I completely agree with your analysis. The Devil Next Door is an accidental Revisionist series. If you watch this series and you have any sense of justice, you will come out of the other side more skeptical of the Holocaust.

The people who made and produced this series don't have a sense of justice, which is why they allowed it to be published on Netflix. They don't even realize how bad it makes them look and how much it undermines the Holocaust legend. I strongly recommend it.

[borjastick]

The whole sorry saga of John Demjanuk was a fit-up,stitch-up and pile of poo smelling lies from the start. When they couldn't get him for one crime they tried again for another crime committed at another camp. Laughable if it weren't true.

The court case showed what a bunch of scheming shysters these 'survivors' are. They should have been prosecuted for perjury after it was shown he wasn't the man. As for the CIA forging his ID papers, well that really proves that this holocaust business is political crap and has very little to do with truth.

Yes you are right it was manna from heaven for Revisionism.

[Otium]

When they couldn't get him for one crime they tried again for another crime committed at another camp. Laughable if it weren't true.

Perhaps you could enlighten me as to some of the particulars of this case. I am unaware of it.

If they couldn't get him on the first crime, why would they have been so desperate to get him on anything at all after that? Was he ever in the camps at all? Ever even in Europe at this time? I could imagine the Jews attempting to pigeon hole a German with a crime he didn't commit, but a random American man seems off to me. Unless they genuinely believe he was guilty of something that they just cannot prove.

[borjastick]

When they couldn't get him for one crime they tried again for another crime committed at another camp. Laughable if it weren't true.

Perhaps you could enlighten me as to some of the particulars of this case. I am unaware of it.

If they couldn't get him on the first crime, why would they have been so desperate to get him on anything at all after that? Was he ever in the camps at all? Ever even in Europe at this time? I could imagine the Jews attempting to pigeon hole a German with a crime he didn't commit, but a random American man seems off to me. Unless they genuinely believe he was guilty of something that they just cannot prove.

Best to google him and see how they tried to do him for being Ivan the Terrible at one camp, Sobibor if I remember right.

In August 1977, Demjanjuk was accused of having been a Trawniki man. Based on eyewitness testimony by Holocaust survivors in Israel, he was identified as the notorious Treblinka extermination camp guard known as "Ivan the Terrible" for his cruelty.[5] Demjanjuk was extradited to Israel in 1986 for trial. In 1988, Demjanjuk was convicted and sentenced to death. He maintained his innocence, claiming that it was a case of mistaken identity. In 1993 the verdict was overturned by the Israeli Supreme Court, based on new evidence that cast reasonable doubt over his identity as "Ivan the Terrible".[6] Although the judges agreed that there was sufficient evidence to show that Demjanjuk had served at Sobibór, Israel declined to prosecute. In September 1993 Demjanjuk was allowed to return to Ohio. In 1999, US prosecutors again sought to deport Demjanjuk for having been a concentration camp guard, and his citizenship was revoked in 2002.[4] In 2009, Germany requested his extradition for over 27,900 counts of acting as an accessory to murder: one for each person killed at Sobibor during the time when he was alleged to have served there as a guard.[7] He was deported from the US to Germany in that same year.[8][9] On 12 May 2011, he was convicted and sentenced to five years in prison.

According to historian Lawrence Douglas, in spite of serious missteps along the way, the German verdict brought the case "to a worthy and just conclusion".[10] After the conviction, Demjanjuk was released pending appeal. He lived at a German nursing home in Bad Feilnbach,[11] where he died on 17 March 2012.[12] Having died before a final judgment on his appeal could be issued, by German law Demjanjuk remains technically innocent.[13] In January 2020 a photograph album by Sobibor guard Johann Niemann was made public; two photos may show Demjanjuk with other guards at Sobibór.

[Archie]

When they couldn't get him for one crime they tried again for another crime committed at another camp. Laughable if it weren't true.

Perhaps you could enlighten me as to some of the particulars of this case. I am unaware of it.

If they couldn't get him on the first crime, why would they have been so desperate to get him on anything at all after that? Was he ever in the camps at all? Ever even in Europe at this time? I could imagine the Jews attempting to pigeon hole a German with a crime he didn't commit, but a random American man seems off to me. Unless they genuinely believe he was guilty of something that they just cannot prove.

Best to google him and see how they tried to do him for being Ivan the Terrible at one camp, Sobibor if I remember right.

In August 1977, Demjanjuk was accused of having been a Trawniki man. Based on eyewitness testimony by Holocaust survivors in Israel, he was identified as the notorious Treblinka extermination camp guard known as "Ivan the Terrible" for his cruelty.[5] Demjanjuk was extradited to Israel in 1986 for trial. In 1988, Demjanjuk was convicted and sentenced to death. He maintained his innocence, claiming that it was a case of mistaken identity. In 1993 the verdict was overturned by the Israeli Supreme Court, based on new evidence that cast reasonable doubt over his identity as "Ivan the Terrible".[6] Although the judges agreed that there was sufficient evidence to show that Demjanjuk had served at Sobibór, Israel declined to prosecute. In September 1993 Demjanjuk was allowed to return to Ohio. In 1999, US prosecutors again sought to deport Demjanjuk for having been a concentration camp guard, and his citizenship was revoked in 2002.[4] In 2009, Germany requested his extradition for over 27,900 counts of acting as an accessory to murder: one for each person killed at Sobibor during the time when he was alleged to have served there as a guard.[7] He was deported from the US to Germany in that same year.[8][9] On 12 May 2011, he was convicted and sentenced to five years in prison.

According to historian Lawrence Douglas, in spite of serious missteps along the way, the German verdict brought the case "to a worthy and just conclusion".[10] After the conviction, Demjanjuk was released pending appeal. He lived at a German nursing home in Bad Feilnbach,[11] where he died on 17 March 2012.[12] Having died before a final judgment on his appeal could be issued, by German law Demjanjuk remains technically innocent.[13] In January 2020 a photograph album by Sobibor guard Johann Niemann was made public; two photos may show Demjanjuk with other guards at Sobibór.

Douglas is featured in the series. He has a book called The Right Wrong Man. That title sums up the OSI's attitude on this case. Well, we got busted for the first frame-up, but it looks like he was at Sobibor for a little while so we can get him for that. The thing is though, the only reason they sent him to Israel to begin with was because he was supposedly this high-profile war criminal. That's the reason he got their attention to being with. And as far the 28,000 counts of accessory to murder, needless to say they cannot prove Demjanjuk's involvement in even a single murder at the level of proof normally required by a court. Indeed, they cannot prove that 28,000 were murdered there at all. Their logic is that orthodox history says X number killed at Sobibor over this period of time. Therefore if you were at Sobibor you must have known what was going on and are consequently guilty of accessory to murder.

With US immigration and citizenship laws, they can denaturalize you (i.e., revoke citizenship) if they determine that you committed fraud on your immigration papers or citizenship application (especially concealing previous crimes). But this is pretty rare. And frankly back in the 1950s, the government was not worried at all about guys like Demjanjuk because whatever they might have done in the war, they represented no prospective threat to society, and their strong anti-Communist attitudes were seen as a plus in the Cold War era. The US government also didn't hesitate to bring over all of Germany's scientists and engineers (Operation Paperclip) which Jews have been complaining about this a lot recently.

Jews started really making an issue of this I think around the late 70s. In 1978 Jewish congresswoman Elizabeth Holtzman introduced legislation that created the OSI and that prioritized going after former "Nazis" and denaturalizing and deporting them. Note that is around when "the Holocaust" was taking on its modern form.

[Carto's Cutlass Supreme]

I'm always sort of expecting others to do something about the myth. But then again, here I am anonymous not willing to stick my neck out beyond anonymity. Having said that, if they're going to ruin Demjanjuk's life, why doesn't he then, with back against the wall, say, "the holocaust is a hoax!" Or shoot a video of your real view to only be shown after your death; or your kids, after your death, say "our dad told us..." But it never happens. The children of deniers, children of accused holocaust perpetrators, are some of the mousiest, spineless, don't want to rock the boat, people you will ever encounter. And sometimes their wives are right up there too.

I want to see that documentary. Israel must be a weird place: can you imagine the USA having some counterpart 50 times larger watching as if you're in a fishbowl? Israel is like a fishbowl for the United States in a way. Holocaust denial could almost sprout up organically within Israel, but imagine the US weighing in on that. I guess the illegality makes that so it won't happen happen. But that movie 'Defamation' by Yoav Shamir (2009) shows you that it could almost happen.

I have a rare book called The Demjanjuk Affair by Yoram Sheftel, about but have never read it.

[Hektor]

I'm always sort of expecting others to do something about the myth. But then again, here I am anonymous not willing to stick my neck out beyond anonymity. Having said that, if they're going to ruin Demjanjuk's life, why doesn't he then, with back against the wall, say, "the holocaust is a hoax!" Or shoot a video of your real view to only be shown after your death; or your kids, after your death, say "our dad told us..." But it never happens. The children of deniers, children of accused holocaust perpetrators, are some of the mousiest, spineless, don't want to rock the boat, people you will ever encounter. And sometimes their wives are right up there too.

I want to see that documentary. Israel must be a weird place: can you imagine the USA having some counterpart 50 times larger watching as if you're in a fishbowl? Israel is like a fishbowl for the United States in a way. Holocaust denial could almost sprout up organically within Israel, but imagine the US weighing in on that. I guess the illegality makes that so it won't happen happen. But that movie 'Defamation' by Yoav Shamir (2009) shows you that it could almost happen.

I have a rare book called The Demjanjuk Affair by Yoram Sheftel, about but have never read it.

That's because the methods of social psychology work.

Well. I doubt the likes of Demjanjuk can say with certainty that "the Holocaust is a hoax". It's just that they were falsely accused, but if everybody appears to believe the narrative, there must be something true in it, doesn't it.

Revisionist children will have seen the treatment of their parents and also the drainage that had on them, associating Revisionism with those negative experiences. They of course will subconsciously also compare it with the experiences of their peers, while they had it better then.
Woman tend to be more "on line" with society, they go with what they perceive as the social norms, avoiding to challenge them.

The alleged "perpetrators" children will have had similar experiences. Imagine your dad being accused of mass murder and nobody believes in his innocence anyway. So you start doubting this as well and either avoid the subject altogether or even join in as one of the accusers.

Actually I'd hope that there are perhaps some memoirs of the rank and file accused, but in most cases I doubt that those were people that would pick up a pen and write more than an A4 page. And the whole affair would have made them so angry that they'd easily decide to leave that altogether.

Well, Robert Mulka disputed in court any knowledge of homicidal gassings in Auschwitz. No, "Nuremberg Defence" their, a term anyway made up from ignorance on what was argued at the trial proceedings. He denied knowledge of order and execution thereof. And he would have had known being Rudolf Hoess's adjutant at the time. The alleged would have been impossible to hide. No hiding from the staff at Auschwitz, nor from prisoners, nor from the civilian workers nor from people working in the proximity of the camp. They'd of course known of people dying from epidemics and other diseases and also about the occasional disposal of the corpses by cremation. Something like this could easily flow into the post-war narrative and get obfuscated with "gassing".

I'm aware of the "Defamation" documentary. It touches on the Holocaust subject at times. Also on how children are indoctrinated with this civil religion that can be embraced by any religion, even Atheists can easily believe it. It's real replacement theology, replacing the "divisive" religions of the past with a mostly unifying cult based on "memory" that isn't this, since most people weren't even alive at the time let alone are alleged to have witnessed what supposedly happened.

As far as "making and issue" is concerned. That would have been a problem, if there was a more vivid debate on the subject during the 1950s, when memories of those involved were more fresh including of those that had senior positions during WW2. Imagine the contradictions that would have uncovered. 30 years later and you can hit an already primed audience. This makes the sell so much easier. Those contradicting you, would have trouble finding evidence to the contrary. So you would have an open field there, with virtually no resistance. When there are resistors present them a lunatic fringe and "Nazi sympathisers", as if that is an argument. It mostly worked. And one can keep the narrative going from them inwardly. You can dig out new witnesses as well since they already have been immersed in cultural production that reflects your narrative with many reusable details.

[stinky]

Another thing I did not know that was touched on only briefly was that Pat Buchanan (Reagan's communications director at the time) publicly voiced support for Demjanjuk.

Democratic Congressman James Traficant also weighed in to support Demjanjuk.
There is a good radio interview (still on YouTube!) with Michael Collins Piper & Traficant where they get into some of the details.
https://www.youtube.com/user/whitejustice54/videos

wikipedia (kosher details);
Defense of John Demjanjuk

Traficant championed the unpopular case of John Demjanjuk, a Ukrainian-born autoworker from Seven Hills, who had been convicted in Israel and sentenced to hang for having been the brutal Nazi concentration camp guard Ivan the Terrible.[15] For almost a decade, Traficant (along with Pat Buchanan)[16] insisted that Demjanjuk had been denied a fair trial, and been the victim of mistaken identity; in 1993 the Supreme Court of Israel overturned the conviction, on the basis of doubt. Demjanjuk was later deported to Germany on May 11, 2009, after the Supreme Court of the United States refused to overturn his deportation order. Demjanjuk was tried and convicted by a German criminal court of being an accessory to murder, but died before the German Appellate Court could hear his case, thereby voiding the conviction.[17]

Traficant upset the usual suspects. He sure got pummeled for the indiscretion;

wikipedia (kosher details);
Trial and expulsion

In 2001, Traficant was indicted on federal corruption charges for taking campaign funds for personal use. Again, he opted to represent himself, insisting that the trial was part of a vendetta against him dating back to his 1983 trial. After a two-month federal trial, on April 11, 2002, he was convicted of 10 felony counts including bribery, racketeering, and tax evasion.[1] Per House rules, he lost his right to vote on legislation pending an investigation by the United States House Committee on Ethics.

Eventually, the House Ethics Committee recommended that Traficant be expelled from Congress. On July 24 the House voted to expel him by a 420–1 vote.[19] The sole vote against expulsion was Representative Gary Condit, who at the time was in the midst of a scandal of his own and had been defeated in his reelection primary.[20] Traficant was the first representative to be expelled since Michael Myers's expulsion in 1980 as a result of the Abscam scandal.

After his expulsion, Traficant ran as an independent candidate for another term in the House while incarcerated at the United States Penitentiary, Allenwood.[21] He received 28,045 votes, or 15 percent, and became one of only a handful of individuals in the history of the United States to run for a federal office from prison. The election was won by one of his former aides, Tim Ryan.[22]

[Lamprecht]

Stinky - Traficant also had an interview on Fox with Greta about this. From: viewtopic.php?t=605

Former congressman James Traficant defended John Demjanjuk, the US citizen who had been extradited to Israel to be punished as "Ivan the Terrible" from Treblinka. Traficant was convicted of taking bribes, filing false tax retuns, and racketeering; he served 7 years in prison as a result. He claims this was a targeted effort against him by AIPAC, in order to punish him for defending Demjanjuk with a Freedom of Information Act.
In his first interview after being released, Traficant said:

I believe that Israel has a powerful stranglehold on the American government. They control both members of the House in the Senate. They have us involved in wars of which we have little or no interest. Our children are coming back in body bags, our nation is bankrupt over these wars. And if you open your mouth, you get targeted. And if they don't beat you at the polls, they'll put you in prison...
[Greta: Can you explain why you have a grudge against the Israelis?]
It's not a grudge, it's an objective assessment that no one will have the courage to speak about. They're controlling much of our foreign policy. Their influencing much of our domestic policy... We're conducting expansionist policy of Israel and everybody's afraid to say it. They control much of the media, they control much of the commerce of the country, and they control powerfully both bodies of the Congress. They own the Congress.

9 September 2009 Interview on Fox News with Greta Van Susteren: https://youtube.com/watch?v=y_Zhe2UUfcw or https://youtube.com/watch?v=0scNGzWfv8A

More on Demjanjuk and Traficant here:
Attacks on Demjanjuk's attorneys and trial perjury
viewtopic.php?t=8445

I have not watched this Netflix documentary yet but I will add it to my todo list.

[stinky]

Thanks for the link Lamprecht.
That's a great quote from Traficant. He smelt the cheese & spoke out about the stench.
No wonder they hammered him.

[Mortimer]

Elizabeth Loftus was a specialist in False Memory Syndrome and was asked by the defense to speak in court on their behalf. After consideration she declined and decided to put Jewish sectarian interests ahead of the fact that an innocent man might be hanged.
https://codoh.com/library/document/my-c ... havior/en/
This article is part of a series on False Memory Syndrome.
https://codoh.com/library/series/false- ... ndrome/en/

[Mortimer]

The late Joseph Sobran was a conservative journalist who used to write for the National Review. Here he discusses Demjanjuk's Treblinka trial and the uses such show trials have for the Israeli state.
https://codoh.com/library/document/demj ... ocaust/en/

[Archie]

The late Joseph Sobran was a conservative journalist who used to write for the National Review. Here he discusses Demjanjuk's Treblinka trial and the uses such show trials have for the Israeli state.
https://codoh.com/library/document/demj ... ocaust/en/

I like this line:

Meanwhile, the Israelis have decided to detain him for a few more days while they decide whether to try him on another charge, which contradicts the charge that he was "Ivan the Terrible": namely, that he was a guard at Sobibor. If that one falls through too in a few years, they can probably produce witnesses to swear he was a guard at Belsen or Buchenwald.

Whatever the trial, they always have "witnesses" coming out of the woodwork.

[Merlin300]

The US Justice Department's actions in the Demjanjuk case were a disgrace.

The key piece of evidence against Demjanjuk was his "SS Id. card." It was produced by the Soviets after a personal request from OSI director
Alan Ryan to Roman Andrejovych Rudenko. Rudenkowas chief Soviet prosecutor at Nuremberg and was famous for pinning the Katyn murders on the Germans. He was one of the commandants of NKVD special camp Nr. 7, a former Nazi concentration camp, until its closure in 1950. Of the 60,000 German prisoners incarcerated there under his supervision, at least 12,000 died due to malnutrition and disease. Rudenko became Procurator-General of the entire Soviet Union after 1953.
Rudenko seems to be held in awe by Ryan and supplied much "evidence" against minority nationalist groups who were targets of the KGB.


Anyway, the card was produced and immediately became a source of controversy. Holocaust Believers claimed it was solid evidence...
https://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/ ... tness-says
but the FBI, in a secret analysis suggested the document was probably faked...for many good reasons. The FBI report was not released for years.

I wish to chime in with something obvious about the card which Believers "forget."
It was allegedly Demjanjuk's personal identification card that was to be carried by Demjanjuk at all times. It says so on the card itself.
It was not a file copy but (allegedly) the original signed and folded card carried by Demjanjuk.


The card contained a list of the locations where Demjanjuk was alleged to have been stationed...progressively added over time.
One embarrassing feature of the card was that Treblinka was not put on the card.
The last station was a camp in Germany.
So the last known location of the card (from the entries on the card itself) was on Demjanjuk's person in Germany!

It strains logic to figure out how the card got out of Demjanjuk's wallet and into the hands of the KGB, where it was preserved for
30 years.