The Hungarian "unfit for work" of 1944: into Germany? Why?

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The Hungarian "unfit for work" of 1944: into Germany? Why?

Postby Waldgänger » 3 months 1 week ago (Sat Feb 25, 2023 11:22 am)

Thanks to CODOH, I now believe that the transports of 1942-1943 did not result in genocide, but in the resettlement of Jews in conquered Eastern territories, awaiting a post-war emigration plan. Despite the demolition of the gas chamber myth, however, the fate of the Hungarian Jews deported to Auschwitz in May-June 1944 is a persistent rational problem for me.

The War's progress at that time had brought the Front very close to Auschwitz, and Hungary. We cannot simply say the Hungarian Jews sent to Auschwitz were transported East, as there was no East left for the Germans to send them to. In the midst of the Transportation, the Soviet Operation Bagration collapsed the remains of the Eastern Front, destroying Army Group Centre entirely. Even if the regime tried to transport 400,000 Hungarian Jews to the remaining eastern territories in May-June, they would have been doing so under chaos and war zone conditions.

Map: Auschwitz is a large black dot. Hungary is circled in black.

Image

My problem is: if these Jews didn't go up in smoke, either as gassing, shooting, typhus, or other victims, where on Earth did they go at the time? Government policy since 1942 had been to make sure not a single Jew remained in the Greater German Reich, to move them East as far as possible. Why would they bring in 400,000 Jews to work after having expelled almost all of their Jews in the course of the previous 2 years? It's a completely contradictory policy. If they needed hard labour for the contingencies of Total War, use the German population themselves! It was their war, after all. We can extend this to all marches of Jews out of Poland into Germany in 1945 as well. Did they really have nobody else to do their manufacturing work? Not even German citizens?

To be clear: I do not know what happened, I do not pretend to know. It's simply a weird puzzle I enjoy thinking about.

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Re: The Hungarian "unfit for work" of 1944: into Germany? Why?

Postby Libertas Aut Mors » 3 months 1 week ago (Sat Feb 25, 2023 3:23 pm)

Actually, the reason is that there never was a transportation of 400,000 Jews from Hungary in the first place. Germany simply didn’t have the trains spare to transport that many that far away at that stage of the war.

It’s been a while since I looked up the details, so PLEASE don’t take my word as gospel, but if I recall correctly, I believe the story of 400,000 Jews being transported out of Hungary to be gassed at Auschwitz was a fiction (I.e atrocity propaganda) that was originally invented by the War Refugee Board during the latter stages of WW2 and has no actual basis in fact. There might have been some very limited transports, but nowhere near to the scale of 400,000.

So there’s your partial answer, but I’m sure someone else will give more details.

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Re: The Hungarian "unfit for work" of 1944: into Germany? Why?

Postby Wilbur » 3 months 1 week ago (Sat Feb 25, 2023 8:15 pm)

Well, Hungarian Jews were transported from Auschwitz across all German-controlled Europe, from Latvia (or Estonia) to France.

Yes, there was a major labor shortage and it was hoped Hungarian Jewish laborers would fill the gap. It's extremely well-documented as even Hitler commented on it and ordered it.

As such, Jewish laborers were avoided in the Reich until they were needed in the Reich. Before that, the German Government issuing a finding ca. 1943 that Poles are equal blood brothers in a failed attempt to get military recruits was pretty wild. Before that, flooding the Reich with foreign workers was unthinkable. Before that, offering Poles in the Incorporated Eastern Territories assimilation into Germandom on a flimsy declaration that they're Germans was something that Hitler declared just a few years back as totally against his principles.

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Re: The Hungarian "unfit for work" of 1944: into Germany? Why?

Postby borjastick » 3 months 1 week ago (Sun Feb 26, 2023 2:41 am)

Sanning believes that only about 71,000 Hungarian jews were missing from the roster in Hungary after the war. This is accounted for by Fallen in military labour force, missing as Soviet prisoners of war, deported east by Soviets in 1945, negative birth rate during the war, refugees into Romania, conversion to Christianity and other faiths thus hiding jewish background.

Also don't forget that about 200,000 Hungarian jews remained in the country at the end of the war.

Thus the claim that 400,000 odd jews were sent to Auschwitz in the summer of 1944 looks most unlikely.
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Re: The Hungarian "unfit for work" of 1944: into Germany? Why?

Postby hermod » 3 months 1 week ago (Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:37 pm)

Your map shows that some parts of Estonia and Lithuania were still available for dumping Jews. And why would any German leader of that time have cared about deporting Jews to areas "under chaos and war zone conditions" when most of their cities had been turned into rubbles by Allied bombers and a significant part of their own people had been reduced to living like tramps in a post-apocalyptic world? Given that Auschwitz was a major railway hub in Europe at that time (because located not far from The Three Emperors' Corner ("Dreikaiserecke"), the spot where the Russian, German and Austro-Hungarian Empires physically met in the 19th century), any deportation of Jews to Eastern Europe should logically have passed through Auschwitz anyway.

Another important city-forming factor in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century was the development of the railroad. It contributed to the urbanization of the surrounding area (KRZYSZTOFIK, 1998) and affected an increase in the rank of towns, particularly with junctions and larger stations, like Mysłowice, Szczakowa and Granica (Maczki). On the one hand, the expansion of the railway network of the German Union facilitated fast transportation of the goods needed for the quickly proceeding industrialisation, on the other hand, it determined the increasing demand for coal, steel, and iron (MYSZCZYSZYN, 2013). The Upper Silesian Coal Basin in Prussia was connected via the Upper Silesian Railway, which in 1846 ended in Mysłowice, connecting this border station with Wrocław and Berlin (TAYLOR, 2007). Branch lines were built in 1859 to Bieruń, and in 1863 to Oświęcim in the Habsburg Empire, but the first connection with the Austro-Hungarian rail network via Mysłowice (and Szczakowa) was made in 1847, thanks to the completion of the Cracow-Upper Silesian Railway. The most important line of the Habsburg Empire was however the Emperor Ferdinand Northern Railway running from Vienna, via Dziedzice, Oświęcim, and the border station in Szczakowa (1848) to Cracow. Later in the same year, a connection Szczakowa – Granica (Maczki) was opened, due to which Warsaw became connected to Vienna (Fig. 1).

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... zki_Poland


Last edited by hermod on Sun Feb 26, 2023 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Hungarian "unfit for work" of 1944: into Germany? Why?

Postby Waldgänger » 3 months 1 week ago (Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:52 pm)

borjastick wrote:Sanning believes that only about 71,000 Hungarian jews were missing from the roster in Hungary after the war. This is accounted for by Fallen in military labour force, missing as Soviet prisoners of war, deported east by Soviets in 1945, negative birth rate during the war, refugees into Romania, conversion to Christianity and other faiths thus hiding jewish background.

Also don't forget that about 200,000 Hungarian jews remained in the country at the end of the war.

Thus the claim that 400,000 odd jews were sent to Auschwitz in the summer of 1944 looks most unlikely.


I've heard this Sanning name a few times. Very interesting. I didn't know any Jews were left over in Hungary after 1944, just goes to show how selective the information is when presented. Funnily enough, the Wannsee Protocol mentions 742,800 Jews in Hungary, a great proof of its uselessness as a document.

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Re: The Hungarian "unfit for work" of 1944: into Germany? Why?

Postby Waldgänger » 3 months 1 week ago (Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:57 pm)

hermod wrote:Your map shows that some parts of Estonia and Lithuania were still available for dumping Jews. And why would any German leader of that time have cared about deporting Jews to areas "under chaos and war zone conditions" when most of their cities had been turned into rubbles by Allied bombers and a significant part of their own people had been reduced to living like tramps in a post-apocalyptic world?


Ah, this isn't about living conditions or morality. I just meant the practicality of transferring tens of thousands of people to new homes while those homes are being overrun by Soviet troops. It sounds cartoonishly impossible.

They could have been put in the remaining Baltic States, to be sure. But at that stage in the war, why were they still bothering to move so many Jews (specifically Jews, nobody else) out of southern Europe, transferring them through Auschwitz, et. al., only to shove them up into the Baltics? It seems like a ridiculous use of time & logistics when the Eastern Front is collapsing right in front of you. Especially when you consider that Hungary was not part of the Greater German Reich, what would be the purpose of taking them from one non-German area to dump them in another non-German area like that? It confuses me no end.

Given that Auschwitz was a major railway hub in Europe at that time (because located not far from The Three Emperors' Corner ("Dreikaiserecke"), the spot where the Russian, German and Austro-Hungarian Empires physically met in the 19th century), any deportation of Jews to Eastern Europe should logically have passed through Auschwitz anyway.

Another important city-forming factor in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century was the development of the railroad. It contributed to the urbanization of the surrounding area (KRZYSZTOFIK, 1998) and affected an increase in the rank of towns, particularly with junctions and larger stations, like Mysłowice, Szczakowa and Granica (Maczki). On the one hand, the expansion of the railway network of the German Union facilitated fast transportation of the goods needed for the quickly proceeding industrialisation, on the other hand, it determined the increasing demand for coal, steel, and iron (MYSZCZYSZYN, 2013). The Upper Silesian Coal Basin in Prussia was connected via the Upper Silesian Railway, which in 1846 ended in Mysłowice, connecting this border station with Wrocław and Berlin (TAYLOR, 2007). Branch lines were built in 1859 to Bieruń, and in 1863 to Oświęcim in the Habsburg Empire, but the first connection with the Austro-Hungarian rail network via Mysłowice (and Szczakowa) was made in 1847, thanks to the completion of the Cracow-Upper Silesian Railway. The most important line of the Habsburg Empire was however the Emperor Ferdinand Northern Railway running from Vienna, via Dziedzice, Oświęcim, and the border station in Szczakowa (1848) to Cracow. Later in the same year, a connection Szczakowa – Granica (Maczki) was opened, due to which Warsaw became connected to Vienna (Fig. 1).

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... zki_Poland

(Oswiecim = Auschwitz)


Thanks for the excerpt, it's interesting.

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Re: The Hungarian "unfit for work" of 1944: into Germany? Why?

Postby Hieldner » 3 months 1 week ago (Sun Feb 26, 2023 3:57 pm)

Auschwitz was located in the Gau Upper Silesia, part of the Reich proper. To the East, there was the General Gouvernement, the designated Jewish reservation as described by Carlo Mattogno in chapter VIII of his book on Treblinka.
auschwitz-general-gouvernement-map-1.jpg
auschwitz-general-gouvernment-map-2.png
subcamps.jpg
WW2-Holocaust-Europe.png


Waldgänger wrote:Government policy since 1942 had been to make sure not a single Jew remained in the Greater German Reich, to move them East as far as possible. Why would they bring in 400,000 Jews to work after having expelled almost all of their Jews in the course of the previous 2 years? It's a completely contradictory policy. If they needed hard labour for the contingencies of Total War, use the German population themselves! It was their war, after all. We can extend this to all marches of Jews out of Poland into Germany in 1945 as well. Did they really have nobody else to do their manufacturing work? Not even German citizens?
The massively expanding economy of the Third Reich demanded the use of foreign labor even before the war, totally contradicting the racial policy of the National Socialists, which was held up for some time into the war, but progressively gave way to a more pragmatic approach. You have to realize how extensive the Soviet armaments industry was (built up with American help, read e.g. Sean McMeekins book on the Soviet war). Germany was in a constant shortage of labor throughout the war and had to forcibly conscript foreigners. This was also the reason why the concentration camp system went from being administered by the SS Reichssicherheitshauptamt (Reich security main office) to the SS Wirtschaftsverwaltungshauptamt (Economic administration main office) after it was clear that the Blitzkrieg against the Soviet Union had failed at the end of 1941, so the concentration camp inmates could be recruited by the industry. As RODOH user Nazgul has explained, deportees weren’t exterminated, but the deportation trains simply loaded them off at each place were there was a labor camp which wasn’t necessarily a concentration camp, there were also many Jews doing forced labor outside the concentration camp system.

I quote from Mark Spoerer, Zwangsarbeit unter dem Hakenkreuz, 2001.
The total number of foreign civilian workers, prisoners of war, and inmates deployed in the Greater German Reich in 1939-1945 is thus in the order of magnitude of a good 13.5 million; 4.6 million prisoners of war, 8.4 million civilian workers, 1.7 million concentration camp inmates, and "labor Jews," adjusted for 1.1 million double entries. Subjectively estimated, the margin of error, which mainly concerns the number of Soviet prisoners of war in labor service, is ±0.75 million. (p. 223)
This was in the Reich territory, in the occupied Soviet territories over 22 million worked for the Germans, predominantly in the agricultural sector.

Poland / General Government

Immediately after the establishment of the General Government, the government announced compulsory labor for male Jews at the end of October 1939, which it gradually extended to Jewish men and women aged 12 to 60. In the first [forced labor] camps established in 1939 and 1940, Jewish men were used for road and melioration work, especially in water management inspections. (p. 51–2)

When the Holocaust entered its decisive phase around the turn of the year 1941/42 with the liquidation of the ghettos and shortly thereafter, in the summer of 1942, the labor shortage in the Generalgouvernement became more and more urgent, the Jewish forced labor camps became even more important in the "extermination through labor". The Germans used two methods in this process, beginning in October. One was to deport all Jews - except able-bodied men between the ages of 15 and 45 - from the ghettos to the death camps and then to declare the ghettos forced labor camps.

The other was to dissolve the entire ghetto and deport the able-bodied men to separate forced labor camps. Thus, in 1942/43 there was a major expansion of the system of forced labor camps in the Generalgouvernement, the total number of which amounted to 300 to 400. The large and later notorious camps were under the control of the SS, others were under the control of the Water Management Inspectorate and the Agricultural Administration. (p. 53)

Hungary

Nevertheless, Hungary was to become an important labor reservoir toward the end of the war. Since Hungary was an ally, the Germans initially had no access to the 825,000 Jews who lived there, many of whom had been Slovak or Romanian citizens before the annexations. However, in anticipatory obedience, the Hungarian government left no doubt that it wanted to come down hard on its Jewish citizens itself. As early as 1938, it had passed discriminatory laws. In March 1939, it created a labor service for men deemed unreliable and unworthy of military service: Slovaks, Romanians, Serbs, Hungarian opposition members, but above all Jews. In principle, the birth cohorts 1894-1924 of these groups could be conscripted for labor service by the Hungarian Ministry of Defense. However, conscription was initially unsystematic, often as a result of denunciation. In the second half of 1942, under German pressure, Hungary tightened up its conscription practice considerably, so that by the end of 1942 a good 100,000 Jewish conscripts had been deployed, half in Hungary and half abroad, mainly in Ukraine. The Jews called up there had to perform hard labor in road and railroad construction as well as military entrenchment, fortification, and mine-clearing work. 10,000-20,000 died as a result of military action and the harassment of the guards, 20,000-30,000 fell into Soviet captivity, where they were treated as prisoners of war, and only about 6,000-7,000 were able to return from Ukraine to Hungary in 1943/44. Some of them and other Jewish labor servicemen, about 6,000 in all, came to work in the Serbian copper mines near Bor under an agreement between the Hungarian Ministry of Defense and the Organisation Todt in July 1943.

With signs mounting after Italy's defection and the Red Army's successful advance that Hungary might also fail as an ally, German troops occupied the country in March 1944. Under the direction of Adolf Eichmann, ghettoization began as early as April, and in May the deportation of Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz. Unlike the Jews of other regions of Europe, the Hungarians got caught up in the Nazi extermination machinery at a time when the need for manpower was even stronger than the will to exterminate the Jews indiscriminately. Thus, many of them were assigned to work on the infamous ramp at Auschwitz. Several tens of thousands of Hungarian Jews, including many girls and women, escaped immediate extermination in this way. They worked primarily in the factories of the aircraft industry, whose representatives were desperately waiting for the Hungarian concentration camp prisoners in the spring of 1944.

The Jewish labor servants were initially spared the deportations. International pressure grew on Hungary not to extradite any more Jews to the Reich. The Hungarian Ministry of Defense, of all people, which until then had contributed significantly to the merciless living conditions, now hastened to conscript the remaining Jewish men of the relevant birth cohorts in order to save them from the German deportations. Jewish women between the ages of 18 and 30 were also conscripted into service, increasing the number of Jewish labor conscripts much to the annoyance of the Germans. At the beginning of July, the Hungarian Reichsverweser Milós Horhy prohibited all further deportations from his country. By this time, all 200,000 Jews still remaining in Hungary who were not in one of the labor companies were in Budapest. Just a short time before, in June, about 15,000 Hungarian Jews had been taken to a camp in Straßhof, northeast of Vienna, 40% of them women. They were "exchange Jews" who were to be spared the Holocaust for the time being in exchange for supplies from abroad that were essential to the war effort. From Straßhof they were distributed to the Gaue Vienna and Niederdonau for forced labor and, unlike all other prisoner groups, were used on a large scale in agriculture.

In September, the Hungarian government announced general compulsory service for all Jews between the ages of 14 and 70. Plans to arm them and declare Hungary neutral were thwarted. The Germans forced Horthy to abdicate in October and installed a puppet government, which immediately thereafter carried out massacres of Budapest Jews and, despite strong international protests, prepared to extradite the remaining Jews to the Germans. In several treks, Hungarian units drove the Jewish labor servants and part of the Jews remaining in Budapest westward toward Vienna in forced marches in early November - the Red Army had already reached suburbs of Budapest. Of the 70,000, only about 40,000, including almost 10% women, reached the Hungarian-German border and were handed over as "exchange Jews" to the SS, who had them do construction and entrenchment work under murderous conditions. Both the "exchange Jews" and the "loaner Jews" initially worked outside the concentration camp system, although the SS provided the guards. In March 1945, the SS drove the surviving "loaner Jews" toward the Mauthausen concentration camp. It is unknown how many Hungarian Jews in total were forced to perform forced labor for Germany. 440,000 were deported to Auschwitz, and about 55,000 reached the former Austro-Hungarian border as "exchange" or "loan" Jews. Of these almost 500,000 deportees, only 116,500 returned to Hungary from the German concentration camps or concentration camp-like camps in Austria by the end of 1945. (pp. 84–6)
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Re: The Hungarian "unfit for work" of 1944: into Germany? Why?

Postby curioussoul » 3 months 1 week ago (Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:00 pm)

Waldgänger wrote:Ah, this isn't about living conditions or morality. I just meant the practicality of transferring tens of thousands of people to new homes while those homes are being overrun by Soviet troops. It sounds cartoonishly impossible.


The deportation of the Hungarian Jews was the result of a meeting at the Klessheim Castle between Adolf Hitler and Miklos Horthy, and we know precisely why the Germans wanted to lay their hands on the Hungarian Jews at this point in the war. Reams of documents from the different branches of the German Foreign Office, the Reich Government and the SS attest to the fact that the Hungarian Jews were to be put to work in the Jaeger Fight Plane Programme and in the German war industry in general. This is no secret, and even orthodox Holocaust historians will admit, when pressed on the issue, that this was the underlying rationale for deporting the Jews of Hungary. The Reich labor force was completely spent at this point in the war, and Germany had drafted practically every eligible male for the war effort. Therefore, the almost 400 000 "untouched" Hungarian Jews remained an enormous labor pool, ripe to be tapped.

In this regard, the Hungarian Jews were deported for very different reasons compared to the Jews from Poland and Western Europe, who were primarily deported because of the German policy of resettlement, and at a point when the German front extended beyond Belarus, Ukraine and Russia's western border. But their ultimate fate is even more well understood than that of the Polish Jews deported through the Aktion Reinhardt camps.

So I don't think you should be concerned about the Hungarian Jews in particular.

Back in the 80's and 90's, orthodox historians believed that virtually every single Jew from Hungary was gassed on the spot at Auschwitz-Birkenau. However, new evidence has since emerged, and historians such as Carlo Mattogno has proved beyond a doubt that hundreds of thousands of these Jews were in fact either transited through the Birkenau transit camp (which was specifically set up in order to handle the enormous influx of Hungarian trains in May and June of 1944) to other parts of the Reich - or sent directly to other camps, never reaching Auschwitz in the first place. Since then, the number of "exterminated" Hungarian Jews has been drastically reduced. And documents from Auschwitz have also proven that the Germans were largely caught off guard by the large number of Hungarian transports reaching the camp. Some documents, rare as they are, attest to how the Germans re-purposed camp sector B III to serve as a temporary holding ground for Hungarian Jews. Hans Kammler of the WVHA even ordered that this part of the camp be made available to Hungarian Jews, which Werner Jothann protested against on the grounds of the lack of sanitary installations in this part of the camp (it was planned to become a huge camp hospital but was unfinished in May 1944). An SS-hygienst named Weber was also sent to Auschwitz from Lublin to inspect the site, and attested to the fact that thousands of Jews were indeed housed there under terrible sanitary conditions. Therefore, they were not gassed at Birkenau.

Also, a document from Dachau originating in Auschwitz-Birkenau attest to the fact that Hungarian Jews were sent "in rags" from Auschwitz to Dachau, but it is completely unknown how these Jews were sent there. Nevertheless, they were sent to Dachau through Auschwitz and this deals a decisive blow to the gassing hypothesis in regards to the Hungarian Jews sent to Auschwitz. In this document, a camp leader at Birkenau tries to explain how every Jew sent through their camp is being processed and checked for disease as thoroughly as possible, but that the logistical situation does not allow for more sophisticated clothing to be provided.

Additionally, it is also known - from data released only a few years ago - that the Germans set up literally hundreds of minor camps in the Altreich and specifically in Austria, to handle Hungarian Jews. Large numbers of camps were designated as "camp for Hungarian men, women and children", or "camp for Hungarian men" or "Camp for men and women". The fact that innumerable camps designated for Hungarian children were set up west of Auschwitz prove beyond any doubt that these children were not exterminated at that the Germans had no plan to exterminate every Jew unable to work. Even Jean-Claude Pressac admitted that Hungarian Jews were found in thousands of camps throughout German occupied Europe after the war, but it is almost completely unknown how these Jews reached these camps.

So in this regard, I think you should be more concerned with what happened to the Jews sent to the Reinhardt camps. The Hungarian Jews are to a large extent accounted for.

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Re: The Hungarian "unfit for work" of 1944: into Germany? Why?

Postby Hektor » 3 months 1 week ago (Mon Feb 27, 2023 3:51 am)

borjastick wrote:Sanning believes that only about 71,000 Hungarian jews were missing from the roster in Hungary after the war. This is accounted for by Fallen in military labour force, missing as Soviet prisoners of war, deported east by Soviets in 1945, negative birth rate during the war, refugees into Romania, conversion to Christianity and other faiths thus hiding jewish background.
.....


You can't have a negative birth-rate, just a birth rate below replacement level.

The planning of deportations is of course something that happened long before the actual deportation taking place. And there was still widespread belief in victory prior to 1944. In fact it seems that the turn in this was the invasion of Normandy and the Stauffenberg assassination attempt against Hitler. After that most people did loose their confidence rather quickly. Also consider that the NS-government did loose approval due to the war itself. Not because this was seen as 'unjust war', but it was seen as something too costly for Germany. Germans wanted Germany to be free and strong, but sacrificing their sons, brother, father etc. was a different matter. Over time the cost/benefit analysis being done gets less favorable and this is the case with any war, were their is massive recruitment and compulsory military service playing a role in. For a while the leadership of a country can ride on some warphoria, but they can't do that too long otherwise this will turn against them. On the other hand most Germans were still loyal to their government in principle... This only changed after the capitulation, but this was also more a case of 'mixed feelings' there. Most Germans could list a number of 'positive aspects' of National Socialism. And they would do so until decades later. Actually this only took a turn in the 1980s, because the number of those with conscious memories of WW2 and the time before was shrinking. The memories fading anyway and the bombardment with 'atrocity propaganda' was intensified to maximum levels. I recall that the movie-series "Holocaust" was shown in 1978. That was the first time that most people had seen 'mass execution' (gas chambers, shooting) scenes on TV. The movie had both "Auschwitz" as well as "Einsatzgruppen"/"Babi Yar" in it. It must have been shocking for most ordinary Germans who actually had a good relationship with their relatives from that era (it was the generation that 'made Germany work again'). It was also the time, when 68er students, doused with Neomarxism, became teachers, professors, journalists etc. And they were especially eager to grab this hammer they could use against senior and more socially conservative colleagues.

Trying to recall educated middle-class Germans from that era (from Germany that is, those outside were a bit different), indeed they seemed to be insecure in many ways. Insecure while being achievers both academically and economically. The older ones were more settled, more modest and actually quite decent. The younger ones had more pc attitudes and showed more signs of decadence... Also an attitude of 'knowing everything better' was detectable. I always found that a bit strange. But also noticed different in the world view, which can be ascribed to cultural changes taking place.

Bear in mind 'survivor' testimony. Some of them were sick, but got treatment in the concentration camps. Survivors are ontological evidence against the extermination thesis. Doesn't hinder adherents of the cult in the slightest way. Their excuse for the legions of survivors would be that 'the Nazis were irrational'. Can't make this sh!t up, one would think, but they do.

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Re: The Hungarian "unfit for work" of 1944: into Germany? Why?

Postby Hektor » 3 months 1 week ago (Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:00 am)

Waldgänger wrote:
borjastick wrote:Sanning believes that only about 71,000 Hungarian jews were missing from the roster in Hungary after the war. This is accounted for by Fallen in military labour force, missing as Soviet prisoners of war, deported east by Soviets in 1945, negative birth rate during the war, refugees into Romania, conversion to Christianity and other faiths thus hiding jewish background.

Also don't forget that about 200,000 Hungarian jews remained in the country at the end of the war.

Thus the claim that 400,000 odd jews were sent to Auschwitz in the summer of 1944 looks most unlikely.


I've heard this Sanning name a few times. Very interesting. I didn't know any Jews were left over in Hungary after 1944, just goes to show how selective the information is when presented. Funnily enough, the Wannsee Protocol mentions 742,800 Jews in Hungary, a great proof of its uselessness as a document.



Any contemporary stats on Jews in Hungary, meaning from the 30s and 40s, if possible.

Also what about the Hungarian uprising and the then Communist government of Hungary? I recall there something of people being fed up with Jews in the government.

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Re: The Hungarian "unfit for work" of 1944: into Germany? Why?

Postby slob » 3 months 1 week ago (Wed Mar 01, 2023 4:00 am)

Any contemporary stats on Jews in Hungary, meaning from the 30s and 40s, if possible.

Also what about the Hungarian uprising and the then Communist government of Hungary? I recall there something of people being fed up with Jews in the government.


No idea if accurate?
1933 figures?

shot_2023-03-01_08-49-30.png

https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-607099611/vi ... -607179401

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Re: The Hungarian "unfit for work" of 1944: into Germany? Why?

Postby Hektor » 3 months 1 week ago (Wed Mar 01, 2023 8:02 am)

slob wrote:
Any contemporary stats on Jews in Hungary, meaning from the 30s and 40s, if possible.

Also what about the Hungarian uprising and the then Communist government of Hungary? I recall there something of people being fed up with Jews in the government.


No idea if accurate?
1933 figures?

shot_2023-03-01_08-49-30.png
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-607099611/vi ... -607179401


The German figure seems to be accurate.
Not sure about the American one... Seems to be too high.
The Soviet figure could be to low though. The issue would be migration. I'd expect Jews to be more mobile than other European ethnic groups.

I'd guess that the Hungarian figure there is fairly accurate.
But there is also an issue of "What is a Jew"? Anyone with Jewish ancestry? Anyone that fills that in on papers that his religion is 'Judaism'? Or is it a self-ascribed ethnicity. Jews usually had the citizenship of the country they stayed in, although many were also recent immigrants. The record and statistics practices of the various countries can vary as well.

After the WW2 shock. Many people of Jewish ancestry were probably reluctant to tell government officials that they were Jews. The Holocaust Rumor was most certainly having an influence on this.


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