Which camps have you visited personally?

[soda]

And what was your impression of them?

It's one thing reading books, but I'm curious as to how people felt when they visted Birkenau, for instance.

[Hannover]

I haven't been to any, but then one doesn't have to go to the moon to realize that it's not made of green cheese.
However, the well known Revisionist authors & scholars have been there. Have you read their work?

Is there something you have seen that we have failed to talk about? Is there something there that you consider to be confirming of the so called 'holocau$t' story that you wish to start a thread about?

- Hannover

[soda]

I'm new to the forum, so I'm very curious as to the sources of information. I have become a little cynical about peoples opinions about the Holocaust - it's an emotional subject, and one people often feel prone to making statements on without much evidence.

I have only been to Auschwitz, Birkenau, and Plasow myself, but would have thought anyone intersted in the subject of the Holocaust would want to visit many of the camps to gain a first hand impression.

I haven't been to the moon, but I am sure if I were to go to the moon, it would challenge many of my preconceptions.

[Hannover]

I see you have avoided my comment:

However, the well known Revisionist authors & scholars have been there. Have you read their work?

I assure you that most of us here have read their research rather thoroughly

again:

Is there something you have seen that we have failed to talk about? Is there something there that you consider to be confirming of the so called 'holocau$t' story that you wish to start a thread about?

Please respond to the specific questions.

Thanks & welcome to The Revisionist Forum,

Hannover

[soda]

I've read a number of works on a lot of different aspects of the holocaust, Hannover, though by no means all of them. I tend to read omniverously - buying books mainly based on reviews and the reccomendations of noted critics or historical importance.

Books like Gitta Sereny's epic "Albert Speer", Hannah Arendts magnificent "Eichmann in Jerusalem" and the recent Traudl Junge are probably the best I've read recently.

Though none of them compare to seeing it for yourself.

[Hannover]

So then, quit beating around the bush, start some threads on specific points from those books (with comment) you think are relevant.

You haven't answered my previous questions either.

- Hannover

[Haldan]

When I visit Auschwitz I will not forget my camera. Do they dislike it when people wander off, to places not told by the seemingly clueless guides? I'll be there somewhere in August, but first I am visiting some friends in Bulgaria who incidentally also share some interest in the alleged "holocaust".

My schedule is very busy these days, but I enjoy to travel.

-haldan

[soda]

I hate guides!

At all 3 camps I've been to, you can take guided tours, but most people wander about by themselves, which is much better - look at what you want to look at, take pics of what you like, and and sit down and thikn about things for as long as you like.

Birkenau particularly is massive - you could easily spend 2 or 3 hours looking around the huts, going up the guard tower at the gate, or wandering about the remains of the gas chamber.

But Plasow is very powerful - though there isn't much there. As with so many camps, they were destroyed under orders from Himmler, who still hoped to negotiate a "just peace" with the Allied powers.

But if you stay in Krakow - it's only a tram ride from the old Jewish ghetto, so worth an afternoon walking around still.

[Richard Perle]

How long ago did you visit Berkinau? Could you still walk right onto the alleged gas chamber remains? Could you climb inside of the ruins? Did you notice the lack of holes?

[soda]

I was there last summer.

Yeah, you could walk wherever you wanted to. There isn't much of the gas chambers to look around, unfortunately, as there isn't much left. Certainly not enough to make much of an informed opinion about.

A lot of the huts, latrines, kitchens and so forth are in fairly good shape, while hundreds of others were destroyed by fire.

If you've read Primo Levis prison diaries, you get a real feel for how the camp might have felt, and if you are familiar with Professor Liftons work at Yale, you can fill in a lot of the more technical details of how the camp functioned.

[Hannover]

Primo Levi?

Take a shot at this thread, soda. Bizarro Levi has been sliced & diced here:

'Primo Levi'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=152

- Hannover

[Hyman]

Hi soda,

Try checking out some Holocaust revisionist websites e.g., ihr.org or vho.org and it will help you better understand the arguments the revisionists make. Holocaust revisionists are not disputing the existence of concentration camps. There are many photographs, mock-ups, blueprints etc. of the camps so one need not of necessity visit them to gain an understanding of what they looked or look like. What revisionists dispute is that the Germans were systematically attempting to exterminate all Jews, primarily by means of Zyklon B and diesel gas chambers.

Some years ago I read Primo Levi's book, Survival In Auschwitz. Even if one accepts his account as mostly accurate, it can be noted that he is not one those who attests to a first hand knowledge of gas chambers. Although Levi certainly believed in the alleged gas chambers, what he saw himself does not contradict the revisionists.

[J William]

.

Yeah, you could walk wherever you wanted to. There isn't much of the gas chambers to look around, unfortunately, as there isn't much left. Certainly not enough to make much of an informed opinion about.

I'm curious. Just how did you ascertain that the ruins you were looking were actually gas chambers and not crematoria or other structures? Oh, I get it: those academics said so.

[Carto's Cutlass Supreme]

Hi Soda,

I haven't visited the camps, nor have I read any Primo Levi, or Arendt, but based on your travels and reading I have some questions I'd like to ask you:

1) Do you think there's a possibility that Primo Levi survived because it wasn't the Nazi's plan to exterminate the Jews? And that just might be why Elie Wiesel survived also, as well as others?

2) Or do you think it was the Nazi's plan to exterminate the Jews, but it was possible, as a prisoner, to survive by outwitting the Nazis or ingratiating oneself with them, or some other way?

3) Do you think there was ever a written document calling for the extermination of the Jews? And if yes, do you think it's likely that it had a clause that said something like, "those inmates who have been useful to SS staff in the capacities of baking, sewing, playing musical instruments, or other help, may have their lives spared on the discretion of the camp commanders."

4) The "Kapos" were helpful to the Nazis as well. Do you think the Nazis were grateful for their dangerous work also? Wouldn't the Nazis have spared their lives along with the musicians, bakers, and seamstresses we've heard about? If so why have we never heard about them? Why no prosecution of Kapos who might have been recognized somewhere in Europe, Israel, or the US?

[soda]

Good questions, Carto. I'm happy to answer them.

1) Do you think there's a possibility that Primo Levi survived because it wasn't the Nazi's plan to exterminate the Jews? And that just might be why Elie Wiesel survived also, as well as others?

No, I don't. Levi talks at length about what it took to survive, how he did, and how others didn't. We know how many Jews arrived at Auschwitz, and we know how many were there when the camps were liberated. So we know how many were killed. The Jewish workers were useful to the Germans, so keeping significant numbers alive throughout the war corroborates the plans explained by so many surviving Nazis.

2) Or do you think it was the Nazi's plan to exterminate the Jews, but it was possible, as a prisoner, to survive by outwitting the Nazis or ingratiating oneself with them, or some other way?

Ingratiating yes - stories of Jews "appeasing" the Germans are easy to find. Kastner dealing with Eichmann in Vienna is the best doccumented. Outwitting no - most of Levis outwitting was aimed at other prisoners.

3) Do you think there was ever a written document calling for the extermination of the Jews? And if yes, do you think it's likely that it had a clause that said something like, "those inmates who have been useful to SS staff in the capacities of baking, sewing, playing musical instruments, or other help, may have their lives spared on the discretion of the camp commanders."

To the second question - no, because numbers rotated. People were replaced as and when they died. Very few prisoners were not expendable. As for the first question, there are very few documents, as clearly Hitler needed secrecy. Eichmann has spoken at length about this, and describes in the Arendt book a series of codewords used universally in text and conversation to avoid using words like "slaughter" The best source on this is Traudl Junge - who has also explained this in some detail.

4) The "Kapos" were helpful to the Nazis as well. Do you think the Nazis were grateful for their dangerous work also? Wouldn't the Nazis have spared their lives along with the musicians, bakers, and seamstresses we've heard about? If so why have we never heard about them? Why no prosecution of Kapos who might have been recognized somewhere in Europe, Israel, or the US?

I don't see why Nazis would have spared their lives. They were replaceable. I'm sure some Kapos did make it to the end of the war, and may well be living in secrecy in the US, Canada, Argentina, Israel etc.

The mechanics of much of this, incidentaly, are identical with the Khmer Rouge. I also reccomend visiting Cambodia, reading up on that, and comparing. Many of the patterns and methods are the same.

I'm happy to answer any questions you may.