3244-PS Martin Bormann on the solution of the Jewish Problem

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Hektor
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3244-PS Martin Bormann on the solution of the Jewish Problem

Postby Hektor » 8 years 3 months ago (Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:10 am)

I came across this recently when browsing through IMT records on Baldur von Schirach. There it was claimed that 3244 was proof of an order by Hitler to exterminate the Jews.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/01-16-46.asp
Searching then I came across this site of our friends
Preparatory Measures for the Solution of the Jewish Problem in Europe-Rumors About the Position of the Jews in the East.
V.I. 66/881 of the 9 Oct., 1942

In the course of the work on the final solution of the Jewish problem, discussions about "very strict measures" against the Jews, especially in the Eastern territories, have lately been taking place within the population of the various areas of the Reich. Investigations showed that such discussions-mostly in a distorted and exaggerated form-were passed on by soldiers on leave from various units committed in the East, who had the opportunity to eye-witness these measures. It is conceivable that not all "Blood Germans" are capable of demonstrating sufficient understanding for the necessity of such measures, especially not those parts of the population which do not have the opportunity of visualizing bolshevist atrocities on the basis of their own observations. In order to be able 'to counter-act any formation of rumors in this connection, which frequently ark of an intentional, prej- udiced character, the following statements are issued for information about the present state of affairs:

For approx. 2000 years, a so-far unsuccessful battle has been waged against Judaism. Only since 1933 have we started to find ways and means in order to enable a complete separation of Judaism from the German masses.

The work toward a solution which has previously been accomplished can in the main be divided as follows:

The repulsion of Jews from the individual spheres of living of the German people. The laws issued by the lawmakers are hereby to be the basis, which guarantees that future generations will also be protected from a possible new overflooding by the enemy.

The attempt to completely drive out the enemy from the area of the Reich. In view of the only very limited living space [Lebensraum] at the disposal of the German people it was hoped this problem could be solved in the main by speeding up the Jewish emigration.

Since the outbreak of war in 1939 these possibilities of emigration decreased to an ever greater extent. On the other hand, in addition to the living space [Lebensraum] of the German people, their economic space [Wirtschaftsraum] grew steadily, so that in view of the large numbers of Jews residing in these territories a complete repulsion of the Jews by emigration is no longer possible.

Since even our next generation will not be so close to this problem and will no longer see it clearly enough on the basis of past experiences and since this matter which has now started rolling demands clearing up, the whole problem must still be solved by the present generation.

A complete removal or withdrawal of the millions of Jews residing in the European economic space [Wirtschaftsraum] is therefore an urgent need in the fight for the security of existence of the German people.

Starting with the territory of the Reich and proceeding to the remaining European countries included in the final solution, the Jews are currently being deported to large camps which have already been established or which are to be established in the East, where they will either be used for work or else transported still farther to the East. The old Jews as well as Jews with high military decorations [Kriegsauszeichnungen] (Iron Cross 1st Class, (E.K.I.) Golden Medal for Valor [Goldene Tapferkeitsmedaille], etc.), are currently being resettled in the city of Theresienstadt which is located in the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia.

It lies in the very nature of the matter that these problems which in part are very difficult, can be solved only with ruthless severity in the interest of the final security of our people.
http://holocaustcontroversies.yuku.com/ ... /master/1/


After some searching I got the German text of this:
Vertrauliche Information der Parteikanzlei (Bormann) an die Gau-und Kreisleiter der NSDAP.
Betr. Vorbereitende Maßnahmen zur Endlösung der europäischen Judenfrage. Gerüchte über die Lage der Juden im Osten.

"Im Zuge der Arbeiten an der Endlösung der Judenfrage werden neuerdings innerhalb der Bevölkerung in verschiedenen Teilen des Reichsgebiets Erörterungen über 'sehr scharfe Maßnahmen' gegen die Juden besonders in der Ostgebieten angestellt. Die Feststellungen ergaben, daß solche Ausführungen - meist in entstellter und übertriebener Form - von Urlaubern der verschiedenen im Osten eingesetzten Verbände weitergegeben werden, die selbst Gelegenheit hatten, solche Maßnahmen zu beobachten.

Es ist denkbar, daß nicht alle Volksgenossen für die Notwendigkeit solcher Maßnahmen das genügende Verständnis aufzubringen vermögen, besonders nicht die Teile der Bevölkerung, die keine Gelegenheit haben, sich aus eigener Anschauung ein Bild von dem bolschewistischen Greuel zu machen.

Um jeder Gerüchtebildung in diesem Zusammenhang, die oftmals bewußt tendenziösen Charakter trägt, entgegentreten zu können, werden die nachstehenden Ausführungen zur Unterrichtung über den derzeitigen Sachstand wiedergegeben:

Seit rund 2000 Jahren wurde ein bisher vergeblicher Kampf gegen das Judentum geführt. Erst seit 1933 sind wir daran gegangen, nunmehr Mittel und Wege zu suchen, die eine völlige Trennung des Judentums vom deutschen Volkskörper ermöglichen. Die bisher durchgeführten Lösungsarbeiten lassen sich im wesentlichen wie folgt unterteilen:

Zurückdrängung der Juden aus den einzelnen Lebensgebieten des deutschen Volkes. Hier sollen die durch den Gesetzgeber erlassenen Gesetze das Fundament bilden, das die Gewähr dafür bietet, auch die künftigen Generationen vor einem etwaigen neuerlichen Überfluten durch den Gegner zu schützen.
Das Bestreben, den Gegner aus dem Reichsgebiet völlig hinauszudrängen. In Anbetracht des dem Deutschen Volk zur Verfügung stehenden nur eng begrenzten Lebensraumes hoffte man, dieses Problem im wesentlichen durch Beschleunigung der Auswanderung der Juden zu lösen.
Seit Beginn des Krieges 1939 wurden diese Auswanderungsmöglichkeiten in zunehmendem Maße geringer, zum anderen wuchs neben dem Lebensraum des Deutschen Volkes sein Wirtschaftsraum stetig an, so daß heute in Anbetracht der großen Zahl der in diesen Gebieten ansässigen Juden eine restlose Zurückdrängung durch Auswanderung nicht mehr möglich ist. Da schon unsere nächste Generation diese Frage nicht mehr so lebensnah und auf Grund der ergangenen Erfahrungen nicht mehr klar genug sehen wird und die nun einmal ins Rollen gekommene Angelegenheit nach Bereinigung drängt, muß das Gesamtproblem noch von der heutigen Generation gelöst werden.

Es ist daher die völlige Verdrängung bzw. Ausscheidung der im europäischen Wirtschaftsraum ansässigen Millionen von Juden ein zwingendes Gebot im Kampf um die Existenzsicherung des deutschen Volkes.

Beginnend mit dem Reichsgebiet und überleitend auf die übrigen in die Endlösung einbezogenen europäischen Länder werden die Juden laufend nach dem Osten in große, zum Teil vorhandene, zum Teil noch zu errichtende Lager transportiert, von wo aus sie entweder zur Arbeit eingesetzt oder noch weiter nach dem Osten verbracht werden. Die alten Juden sowie Juden mit hohen Kriegsauszeichnungen (E.K. I, Goldene Tapferkeitsmedaille usw.) werden laufend nach der im Protektorat Böhmen und Mähren gelegenen Stadt Theresienstadt umgesiedelt.

Es liegt in der Natur der Sache, daß diese teilweise sehr schwierigen Probleme im Interesse der endgültigen Sicherung unseres Volkes nur mit rücksichtsloser Härte gelöst werden können."
http://www.holocaust-chronologie.de/chr ... 08-15.html

Now what does give them the idea that this is about "extermination". To me the text clearly states that this is about the forced resettlement of Jews in the East.

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Re: 3244-PS Martin Bormann on the solution of the Jewish Pro

Postby hermod » 8 years 3 months ago (Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:09 pm)

Hektor wrote:
Preparatory Measures for the Solution of the Jewish Problem in Europe - Rumors About the Position of the Jews in the East.
V.I. 66/881 of the 9 Oct., 1942

In the course of the work on the final solution of the Jewish problem, discussions about "very strict measures" against the Jews, especially in the Eastern territories, have lately been taking place within the population of the various areas of the Reich. Investigations showed that such discussions - mostly in a distorted and exaggerated form - were passed on by soldiers on leave from various units committed in the East, who had the opportunity to eye-witness these measures. It is conceivable that not all "Blood Germans" are capable of demonstrating sufficient understanding for the necessity of such measures, especially not those parts of the population which do not have the opportunity of visualizing bolshevist atrocities on the basis of their own observations. In order to be able 'to counter-act any formation of rumors in this connection, which frequently ark of an intentional, prejudiced character, the following statements are issued for information about the present state of affairs:

For approx. 2000 years, a so-far unsuccessful battle has been waged against Judaism. Only since 1933 have we started to find ways and means in order to enable a complete separation of Judaism from the German masses.

The work toward a solution which has previously been accomplished can in the main be divided as follows:

The repulsion of Jews from the individual spheres of living of the German people. The laws issued by the lawmakers are hereby to be the basis, which guarantees that future generations will also be protected from a possible new overflooding by the enemy.

The attempt to completely drive out the enemy from the area of the Reich. In view of the only very limited living space [Lebensraum] at the disposal of the German people it was hoped this problem could be solved in the main by speeding up the Jewish emigration.

Since the outbreak of war in 1939 these possibilities of emigration decreased to an ever greater extent. On the other hand, in addition to the living space [Lebensraum] of the German people, their economic space [Wirtschaftsraum] grew steadily, so that in view of the large numbers of Jews residing in these territories a complete repulsion of the Jews by emigration is no longer possible.

Since even our next generation will not be so close to this problem and will no longer see it clearly enough on the basis of past experiences and since this matter which has now started rolling demands clearing up, the whole problem must still be solved by the present generation.

A complete removal or withdrawal of the millions of Jews residing in the European economic space [Wirtschaftsraum] is therefore an urgent need in the fight for the security of existence of the German people.

Starting with the territory of the Reich and proceeding to the remaining European countries included in the final solution, the Jews are currently being deported to large camps which have already been established or which are to be established in the East, where they will either be used for work or else transported still farther to the East. The old Jews as well as Jews with high military decorations [Kriegsauszeichnungen] (Iron Cross 1st Class, (E.K.I.) Golden Medal for Valor [Goldene Tapferkeitsmedaille], etc.), are currently being resettled in the city of Theresienstadt which is located in the Protectorate of Bohemia andMoravia.

It lies in the very nature of the matter that these problems which in part are very difficult, can be solved only with ruthless severity in the interest of the final security of our people.


Now what does give them the idea that this is about "extermination". To me the text clearly states that this is about the forced resettlement of Jews in the East.


Consistent with what the Soviets found in Far Eastern Europe.

At Nuremberg, on February 8th 1946, Soviet IMT-Chief prosecutor general Rudenko, declared in his opening speech:

"Upon investigations by the Extraordinary State Commission of the Soviet Union, it was found that at the front, behind their main line of defense, the Hitlerites had systematically constructed special concentration camps where they kept tens of thousands of children, women who were unfit for work, and old men".

He continued:

"I must name the concentration camps of Smolensk (Russia), Stavropol (Russia), Kharkov (Ukraine), Kiev (Ukraine), Lvov (Ukraine), Poltava (Ukraine), Novgorod (Russia), Orel (Russia), Rovno (Ukraine), Dniepropetrovsk (Ukraine), Odessa (Ukraine), Kamenetz-Podolsk (Russia), Gomel (White Russia), Kerch (Ukraine), of the Stalingrad region (Russia), of Kaunas (Lithuania), Riga (Latvia), Mariampol (Lithuania) of Kloga (Estonia) and many others [...]". [IMT, VII, 180] (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-08-46.asp)

Three of these camps were described in detail in document USSR-4: “On March 19, 1944, Soviet forces find in Polesia (White Russia), inside the German defense line three concentration camps in Ozaritschi, between Minsk and Kiev; in those camps there were more than 33.000 children, women, elderly people and people unfit for work".


In mid-September 1942, "when [Zionist activist] Felix Frankfurter voiced his apprehensions about the fate of the Jews to President Roosevelt he was told not to worry, the deported Jews were simply being employed on the Soviet frontier to build fortifications” (https://holocausthistorychannel.wordpre ... -language/).

I share your opinion, Hektor. Document 3244-PS only says that induced emigration was being replaced by ruthless forced uprooting and resettlement at locations as far away as possible from Germany's Living Space and Economic Space (the German sphere of influence). A severe and harsh measure for sure, but no extermination by mass murders as Holohoaxers claim.

And if the Germans were exterminating the Jews by mass murders at that time, what were the "rumors" evoked by Bormann in document 3342-PS? Shouldn't he rather have talked about "leaks" or "disclosed secret information"?
"[Austen Chamberlain] has done western civilization a great service by refuting at least one of the slanders against the Germans
because a civilization which leaves war lies unchallenged in an atmosphere of hatred and does not produce courage in its leaders to refute them
is doomed.
"

Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, on the public admission by Britain's Foreign Secretary that the WWI corpse-factory story was false, December 4, 1925

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Re: 3244-PS Martin Bormann on the solution of the Jewish Pro

Postby Hektor » 8 years 3 months ago (Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:28 pm)

hermod wrote:...
Consistent with what the Soviets found in Far Eastern Europe.

At Nuremberg, on February 8th 1946, Soviet IMT-Chief prosecutor general Rudenko, declared in his opening speech:

"Upon investigations by the Extraordinary State Commission of the Soviet Union, it was found that at the front, behind their main line of defense, the Hitlerites had systematically constructed special concentration camps where they kept tens of thousands of children, women who were unfit for work, and old men".

He continued:

"I must name the concentration camps of Smolensk (Russia), Stavropol (Russia), Kharkov (Ukraine), Kiev (Ukraine), Lvov (Ukraine), Poltava (Ukraine), Novgorod (Russia), Orel (Russia), Rovno (Ukraine), Dniepropetrovsk (Ukraine), Odessa (Ukraine), Kamenetz-Podolsk (Russia), Gomel (White Russia), Kerch (Ukraine), of the Stalingrad region (Russia), of Kaunas (Lithuania), Riga (Latvia), Mariampol (Lithuania) of Kloga (Estonia) and many others [...]". [IMT, VII, 180] (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-08-46.asp)

Three of these camps were described in detail in document USSR-4: “On March 19, 1944, Soviet forces find in Polesia (White Russia), inside the German defense line three concentration camps in Ozaritschi, between Minsk and Kiev; in those camps there were more than 33.000 children, women, elderly people and people unfit for work".


In mid-September 1942, "when [Zionist activist] Felix Frankfurter voiced his apprehensions about the fate of the Jews to President Roosevelt he was told not to worry, the deported Jews were simply being employed on the Soviet frontier to build fortifications” (https://holocausthistorychannel.wordpre ... -language/).

I share your opinion, Hektor. Document 3244-PS only says that induced emigration was being replaced by ruthless forced uprooting and resettlement at locations as far away as possible from Germany's Living Space and Economic Space (the German sphere of influence). A severe and harsh measure for sure, but no extermination by mass murders as Holohoaxers claim.

And if the Germans were exterminating the Jews by mass murders at that time, what were the "rumors" evoked by Bormann in document 3342-PS? Shouldn't he rather have talked about "leaks" or "disclosed secret information"?

And it's confirmed in principle by speech by Heinrich Himmler on 18th of November 1943.
https://archive.org/details/HeinrichHim ... uvernement
Notably 32min ff. He states that Jews were emigrated from the Generalgouvernement to the East.

Funny enough, he says that a month after the Posen Speech with the supposedly revealing remarks in front of a far more closed circle.

It's also confirmed by a map of the Ghettos in the East:

Image

As result of this effort, the researchers cataloged 42,500 Nazi ghettos and camps throughout Nazi-controlled Europe. Writing about the project in the New York Times, Eric Lichtblau commented that, “The figure was so staggering that even fellow Holocaust scholars had to make sure they heard it correctly when the lead researchers previewed their findings.”

According to the project’s leader, Geoffrey Megargee, at the outset the scholars had expected the tally of undocumented camps and ghettos to reach about 7,000. However, the number kept growing and ended up being six-times greater.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/geoffreykab ... holocaust/

Was their underestimate based on their extermination assumption?


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