Babi Yar 'massacre' debunked

[Bergmann]

We are dealing here with a pseudo-religious myth. Normal rules don't apply, only certain spiritual rules, which quite frankly are beyond my comprehension and which I don't understand.

[Barrington James]

Have I missed something? Why is it that no one has mentioned the book “Babi Yar”, written in the 70’s I think in which the author describes that all the Jews of Kiev (?), perhaps as many as 100, 000 or more (who knows?), were told to meet in the city one fine day at the corner of such and such street, right in the middle of the German and Russian house to house fighting, and then obediently march 5 to 10 abreast out to the Ravine where they obediently awaited the machine guns. She and her child both escaped being shot however so they pretended to be dead while the SS guys shot all and any people who were just wounded. That night she and her child crawled away and lived to write the story. There was no mention of the number of SS fellows shot by the Russians as they escorted the Jews out of the city nor of the number of Jews who got tired of waiting in line and just ducked out, nor why the Jews agreed to all meet at the square, nor what they thought of as they got closer and closer to the machine gun noise. But that’s not the point The point is just how much evidence do you deniers need than this book to start believing. Besides it is unfair to use aerial photography to try to ruin a good book.

[Hannover]

Barrington:

Is A. Anatolii the author?

- Hannover

[Barrington James]

Hannover- I have taken most of my old holocasut books such as Babi Yar Treblinka, The Hoax of the 20'th Century, The Dissolution of the Eastern Jewry, and so on to the cottage where I have scattered the books here and there hoping that some of my friends whould get educated so to speak. It hasn't worked out that way...as most of them still believe everything they read in the papers, see in the movies or T.V.and get quite annoyed at my attempts to educate them. If it were not for the fact that I have such a great summer place I think they would all leave me. In any case I read Babi Yar so long ago, at least 30 years ago, that I do not remember the women's name. I of course remember most of the silly details that I have already told you about and how I, like my dumb friends , believed everything I read at the time. When I go to the cottage soon I will try and find the book. It should still be there unless someone has burned it. Barrington James

[Radar]

I have no desire to demean people like Soda personally. Given the nature of the topic he believes what most do. But I would make a few suggestions.

First he relies on the "admission" of the German Einsatzgruppen "Situation Report" claiming that 33,771 Jews were executed in Kiev on September 29 and 30, 1941. He should be aware that the authenticity of that report has been seriously questioned by revisionists. Udo Walendy, "Baby Jar - Die Schlucht 'mit 33,771 murdered Jews'?" in: Historische Tatschen no. 51, Verlag fur Volkstum und Zeiotgeschichstforschung, Vlotho 1992. Also Herbert Tiedemann, "Babi Jar: Critical Questions and Comments", in Germar Rudolph's "Dissecting the Holocaust" (2d Ed.) and Arthur Butz' "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century", many comments.

This situation should cause us to look for other evidence of the crime and not only is there none, there is evidence of false testimony and propaganda. See Carlo Mattogno and Jurgen Graf's thoroughly documented book "Treblinka", Theses & Dissertations Press, Chicago (2004), p. 220 et seq. where they discuss the testimony of a "witness" to the burning of the victims bodies two years after the killings, claiming 70,000 dead, and burning in large pires of wood. There is utterly no evidence of such burning today in the ravine and there was none in arial photos of the area taken the day after the supposed cremations and burials. Given the propensity of the Soviets to create propaganda lies it seems more and more that the Babi Yar story is a hoax.

I visited Baby Yar myself and can confirm the absence of any sign of such a huge ground disturbance and wood residue, and the scepticism of many if not most ordinary Kievans about the stories. Even at this distance in time it would be impossible to conceal such an activity.

[nny]

This post, on a pro-Ukranian site does not deny the fact that Babi Yar did happen, but does take offense to Elie Weisels statement :

KIEV, Soviet Union — The face of Ukrainian President Leonid Kravchuk flushed deep red yesterday as Nobel Peace Prize winner Elie Wiesel challenged him to explain why 50 years ago Ukrainians stood by as tens of thousands of Jews were sent to a Nazi killing ground called Babi Yar.

The reply can be found here (along with much more informative articles).

http://www.ukar.org/wiesel06.html


Its interesting that Einsatzgruppen situational report 101 found here :

http://www.einsatzgruppenarchives.com/osr101.html

Which refers to the "Babi Yar" Massacre, but fails to mention it by name, is quoted by so many holocaust historians yet the same historians ignore other situational reports about how the bolsheviks treated the ukranians (In response to why did the jews not help the ukranians?).

From situational report 24 (Found on the same website that the babi yar 'report' is found on)

http://www.einsatzgruppenarchives.com/osr24.html

Before leaving, the Bolsheviks, together with the Jews, murdered several Ukrainians; as an excuse, they used the attempted Ukrainian uprising of June 25, 1941, which tried to free their prisoners.

According to reliable information, about 20,000 Ukrainians have disappeared from Lvov, 80% of them belonging to the intelligentsia

The prisons in Lvov were crammed with the bodies of murdered Ukrainians. According to a moderate estimate, in Lvov alone 3-4,000 persons were either killed or deported.

and further down :

In Sambor on June 26, 1941, about 400 Ukrainians were shot by the Bolsheviks. An additional 120 persons were murdered on June 27, 1941. The remaining prisoners succeeded in overpowering the Soviet guards, and fled. Concerning their numbers it should be noted that Sambor has a total of 26,000 inhabitants, among them 12,000 Poles, 10,000 Jews, and 4,000 Ukrainians.

As early as 1939, a larger number of Ukrainians was shot, and 1,500 Ukrainians as well as 500 poles were deported to the east.

Russians and Jews committed these murders in very cruel ways. Bestial mutilations were daily occurrences. Breasts of women and genitals of men were cut off. Jews have also nailed children to the wall and then murdered them. Killing was carried out by shots in the back of the neck. Hand grenades were frequently used for these murders.

In Dobromil, women and men were killed with blows by a hammer used to stun cattle before slaughter.

In many cases, the prisoners must have been tortured cruelly; bones were broken, etc. In Sambor, the prisoners were gagged and thus prevented from screaming during torture and murder. The Jews, some of whom also held official positions, in addition to their economic supremacy, and who served in the entire Bolshevik police, were always partners in these atrocities.

Finally, it was established that seven [German] pilots who had been captured were murdered. Three of them were found in a Russian military hospital where they had been murdered in bed by shots in the abdomen.

This atrocity apparently stems from a Russian instruction to 'exterminate' all German pilots and parachutists.


And on another situational report (14 from that same page) we have :

In Tarnopol 5,000 Ukrainians were taken away, and 2,000 murdered [by the Soviets]. In retaliation, arrest of Jewish intelligentsia has begun, since they are responsible for the murders and have also acted as informers for the NKVD. The number is estimated at 1,000. On July 5, about 70 Jews were assembled by the Ukrainians and finished off with concentrated fire [machine gunned]. 20 more Jews slain in the streets by Ukrainians and soldiers as retaliation for the murder of 3 soldiers who were found in prison, tied, their tongues sliced and eyes gouged out.

I wouldn't be surprised at all to find that in Tarnopol there is a monument to those 90 Jews murdered by the Ukranians in their outburst of anger, yet the 5,000 Ukranians deported (Its not unreasonable to assume a near 100% fatality rate for these deportees) and 2,000 murdered, or the 3 soldiers who were brutally tortured? They go down in history as perpetrators of the holocaust.

The Einsatzgruppen articles are just as unflattering for the Jews as they are for the Ukranians, Latvians, Lithuanians and Germans, yet their ability to ommit what they find distasteful is second to none. I'm really looking forward to Spielbergs movie on Babi Yar, can't wait to see those Geysers of Blood (3 days after the massacre) or the ground 'undulating before me', again, 3 days after the massacre. I hope he doesn't gloss over the "massive excavations" the germans went through to destroy evidence.

Maybe some day he'll make a movie about Katyn. Doubt it.

[Hannover]

Well, I would like to see the evidence for this Ukranian 'acceptance' of the Babi Yar myth, Revisionists have demolished the story. So what is their evidence?

http://www.einsatzgruppenarchives.com/osr101.html
Situation Report 101? Oh please, look at it. There is no authentic German document shown, why? We know why; there is no evidence for such a large mass execution, that's why. These 'situation reports' are notorious for fraudulence. Remember, we're dealing with an alleged mass murder of 34,000 Jews in one exactly known site which would necessarily leave massive amounts of evidence, if true. There is NONE.

So, what did we just see then in the link? English text, not a German original shown for verifiability, and alleged claims which cannot be shown to be true.

I suggest a re-reading of previous comments in this thread.

- Hannover

[nny]

Well, I would like to see the evidence for this Ukranian 'acceptance' of the Babi Yar myth, Revisionists have demolished the story. So what is their evidence?

http://www.einsatzgruppenarchives.com/osr101.html
Situation Report 101? Oh please, look at it. There is no authentic German document shown, why? We know why; there is no evidence for such a large mass execution, that's why. These 'situation reports' are notorious for fraudulence. Remember, we're dealing with an alleged mass murder of 34,000 Jews in one exactly known site which would necessarily leave massive amounts of evidence, if true. There is NONE.

So, what did we just see then in the link? English text, not a German original shown for verifiability, and alleged claims which cannot be shown to be true.

I suggest a re-reading of previous comments in this thread.

- Hannover

No need to get all uptight, the author of the article says nothing to disprove the Babi Yar myth, he fully believes the Germans comitted it, he just doesn't believe in Weisels statement that the Ukranians were complicent in the massacre. That is the origin of my comment "A pro-Ukranian site that does not deny the fact that Babi Yar happened". I never said the Ukranians accepted the myth, in general. I don't believe there was a massacre at Babi Yar. As far as the Einsatzgruppen report, I have no idea, I've heard that there was an original, but it disappeared, which seems very suspicious to me. And English translation of a German document, without the original to prove the point, is worthless to me, and to most people. I won't buy the book "The Einsatzgruppen Reports" because they chose a soviet propoganda picture as the cover. I have read the previous posts also, thank you very much. And actually, it was 33,771 not 34,000, which indicates an exact counting, not an estimation.

[PLAYWRIGHT]

From Soda's Post, April 17

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/babi_yar.htm

Looking at that report, it says that SS Standartenfurher Paul Blobel attended a planning meeting for Babi Yar shortly after the Soviet partisans set off charges in Kiev on September 24.

Paul Blobel received a serious head injury on September 24. How could he have attended the meeting?

Beginning on September 29, the Jews of Kiev were assembled and marched to the vicinity of the ravine. Not far from its edge they were told to strip off their clothes and remove their valuables. In groups of ten they were marched to to the edge, whereupon they were shot and fell into the Yar. The accepted estimate is that 33,771 Jews were executed in this manner.

33,771 Jews murdered in groups of ten means 3,377 groups of Jews. Assuming one group every five minutes - which sounds about right - that would take 16,850 minutes. That's 11.71 days. The executions would have been going on through October 10.

Army Group Center's weather report says that September 29 and 30 in Kiev were days of heavy rain. Mass executions can be carried out in a rainstorm? In a timely manner?

EDIT NOTE: By late September in the Ukraine, the days are starting to get shorter. Executions like this cannot be carried out at night. Looking at the almanac, on September 29, Kiev has 11 hours and 45 minutes of day, with 12 hours and 50 minutes of usuable light.

That would double the time needed for execution to 23 days.

[Richard Perle]

I don't think anywhere near 5 minutes would be needed to shoot 10 people.

[PLAYWRIGHT]

I don't think anywhere near 5 minutes would be needed to shoot 10 people.

Take into account cycling each group. Stripping them, marching them, placing them, shooting them, making sure they're dead, etc.

BTW, to fit the alleged time frame of the massacre, they'd have to be shooting one group of people every minute. 3371 minutes = 2.34 days.

Again, useful light is only about 13 hours at that time. According to the story, the Jews BEGAN gathering at 8:00 a.m. in the center of Kiev. For September 29, there's all sorts of downtime between their gathering, the march to the ravine, the processing, stripping ect. This would have reduced useful work time on the 29th, though I'm not sure to what degree.

[Richard Perle]

According to the part you quoted, the stripping took place en masse ("not far from it's edge") before they were marched forward in groups of ten. I find it hard to believe that a mass of people stripped and stood there in full view as they were walked forward in groups of ten and shot, but as preposterous as I find it, I don't think the scenario requires much time for each shooting.

[Hektor]

From Soda's Post, April 17

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/babi_yar.htm

Looking at that report, it says that SS Standartenfurher Paul Blobel attended a planning meeting for Babi Yar shortly after the Soviet partisans set off charges in Kiev on September 24.

Paul Blobel received a serious head injury on September 24. How could he have attended the meeting?

What is the evidence for Blobel sustaining a serious head injury?

Beginning on September 29, the Jews of Kiev were assembled and marched to the vicinity of the ravine. Not far from its edge they were told to strip off their clothes and remove their valuables. In groups of ten they were marched to to the edge, whereupon they were shot and fell into the Yar. The accepted estimate is that 33,771 Jews were executed in this manner.

But there is an affidavit in which Blobel confesses to all those crimes:
http://www.ns-archiv.de/einsatzgruppen/ ... rung-1.php

Two funny points in it:

5. Waehrend meiner Dienstzeit als Chef des Sonderkommandos 4 A
vom Zeitpunkt der Aufstellung im Juni 1941 bis zum Januar 1942, wurde
ich verschiedentlich mit den Aufgaben der Hinrichtung von Kommuni-
sten, Saboteuren, Juden und anderen unerwuenschten Elementen beauf-
tragt. Die genaue Zahl der hingerichteten Personen ist mir nicht
mehr erinnerlich. Einer oberflaechlichen Schaetzung nach, fuer
deren Richtigkeit ich keine Gewaehr geben kann, vermute ich, dass
sich die Zahl der Hingerichteten woran das Sonderkommando 4 A be-
teiligt war zwischen 10000 und 15000 bewegt.

Blobel claims to have been estimating a rough figure. How so, if they had to file "Einsatzmeldungen" giving exact figures? This statement also becomes more interesting in the light of the following:

8. Waehrend der letzten Tage des September 1941 nahm das
Sonderkommando 4 A unter Mitwirkung des Gruppenstabes der Einsatz-
gruppe C und zwei Einheiten der in KIEW stationierten Polizeiregi-
menter die Massenhinrichtung von Juden in KIEW vor. Ich betrachte
die mir genannte Ziffer der hingerichteten Leute von 33771[3] als zu
hoch. Meiner Ansicht nach wurden nicht mehr als die Haelfte der
angegebenen Zahl erschossen.

First he puts the total figure of people executed during operations which involved his commando at between 10.000 and 15.000 then he "corrects" the Babi Yar figure on about have of the "reported" 33771 on about half which makes it slightly less then 17.000 people executed.
If his commando was involved into the killing of the 17.000, how does it match with the estimate of up to 15.000 total number of people killed involving his commando? This would mean that they couldn't have killed any more people then the once in Babi Yar.

If Blobel is halfing the figures in the report, what does this say about the credibility of either the report or this affidavit?

Guess what Holocaustians say about this:"Why would Blobel halfed the figure, if he was coerced to give that statement?"

[Barrington James]

...and besides do you actually believe that 34, 000 Jews who have been at war with the Christians for 2,000 years would actually be so stupid as to allow themselves to be marched off to Babi Yar and then wait patiently in line as they hear the machine guns roaring to be thus murdered themselves?

[MrNobody]

Barrington:

Is A. Anatolii the author?

- Hannover

I have that "Novel", what shite, A. Anatolii is the pen name for Anatoly Kuznetsov.

You can find the "Novel" in word document (RTF) format although it's in Cryllic here : http://ldn-knigi.lib.ru/JUDAICA/BabijJar.zip