Inbound train records, but no outbound records. Why?

[Hannover]

Freeman:

Thanks, points taken.

Also helpful:
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v20/v20n2p21_Widmann.html#58236

excerpts:

Czech, Auschwitz Chronicle ...,pp. 702, 741. Czech notes that October 28 is "probably" the date of the Franks' transfer to Bergen-Belsen.

We now know that while some of the Hungarian Jews were retained to work in Auschwitz itself, large numbers were dispersed to over 386 camps, the great majority of these in the concentration camp system within the German Reich.[see note] The largest groups were sent to Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Gross Rosen, Gunskirchen, Mauthausen, Neuengamme, Ravensbrück, and Sachsenhausen.[see note]

It is also clear, as Shmuel Krakowski concedes, that Jews sent to other concentration camps via Auschwitz were not registered as they awaited transfer from Auschwitz. It is thus safe to say that many Jews who were deported to Auschwitz were never registered until their arrival in the western camps.

Unregistered Jews were said to have been gassed upon arrival, the above is yet another refutation of that unfounded claim. But that is not outbound train records. Even trains that stopped, but did not unload or register it's Jews, would have generated a record of arrival AND departure: time, any additions, refueling, repairs, any personel changes, etc.

For Jews unloaded & registered, their train arrivals are recorded; but even here there are no outbound records. There are plenty of examples of these Jews being transferred out of Auschwitz and other camps (Anne Frank, for example); which again crushes the entire scenario that claims Germans tried to kill all the Jews they could get their hands on. Those examples, while compelling enough, are not what I'm looking for.

summary:
I want outbound train records (registered and unregistered Jews), train after train. Obviously the Germans kept such records for reasons mentioned previously. These outbound records have clearly been hidden or destroyed because they do not support the mandated lies.

- Hannover

[Hektor]

What was the correct German wording for "Inbound Train Records" and "Outbound Train Records" ???

[KostasL]

There are plenty of examples of these Jews being transferred out of Auschwitz and other camps (Anne Frank, for example); which again crushes the entire scenario that claims Germans tried to kill all the Jews they could get their hands on.

- Hannover

I see you insist claiming the obvious : the Germans did not kill all the jews they got their hands on.

Of course they didn't.

Those, who claim that Germans tried to kill all the jews they got their hands on, are simply ridiculous.
What happened if it was so ? The Germans tried to kill them but failed ?

But i guess, Hannover, that fighting against the Holocaust lie is also about talking and claiming the obvious and the rational.

[MrNobody]

Try looking at the Rail Expenses.

Wirtschafts und Verwaltungshauptamt, SS-WVHA
SS-Economic and Administration Main Office

All the literature I've read state that the SS paid for the transports of the Yoos, since the Deutsche Reichsbahn wasn't about to do it for free.

Even if the "outbound records" have been destroyed, there may be a paper trail in the form of accounting records, the costs should differ from a loaded & unloaded train, so even though an out bound train may "appear" to be unloaded the cost to the SS Accounting Office will be the give away, since they wouldn't have paid for an empty train's return.

[PotPie]

There are actually a fair number of sources on the "outbound" transfers.

For one, consider the case of Anne Frank. Anne Frank and her family were deported to Auschwitz on September 5, 1944. Anne and her sister Margot were transferred from the transit camp in Auschwitz II to Bergen-Belsen on October 28, 1944, along with some 1,300 other female Jews.

This is referenced in Danuta Czech's "The Auschwitz Chronicle 1939- 1945" See p. 741. Czech references APMO (Archive of the State Auschwitz Museum.)

The book is helpful to a degree, incomplete as it is. It seems to fill missing gaps with quotations from memoirs such as Kielar's Anus Mundi, Nyiszli's memoir, Communist Poland-published Encyclopedia of World War II (p. 225), and post-war trials, including ones held by Communists. The book also frequently claims without saying how we know that x number of people were sent to the gas chambers. This appears to be assumption-making on Czech's part.

The nice thing about that book is that it helps in debunking obviously propagandistic claims made by the likes of Olga Lengyel.

[PotPie]

Those, who claim that Germans tried to kill all the jews they got their hands on, are simply ridiculous.
What happened if it was so ? The Germans tried to kill them but failed ?

Apparently so. They allegedly imported tens of thousands from the far reaches of occupied Europe, such as Greece, and still couldn't manage to finish them off once and for all. Its like one of those corny Bond movies where the villain has Bond right where he wants him, and instead of shooting him dead and being done with it, he takes Bond off somewhere and devises some devlishly genius but flawed mechanism which is supposed to kill Bond but never manages to do so.

[Turpitz]

Apparently so. They allegedly imported tens of thousands from the far reaches of occupied Europe, such as Greece, and still couldn't manage to finish them off once and for all. Its like one of those corny Bond movies where the villain has Bond right where he wants him, and instead of shooting him dead and being done with it, he takes Bond off somewhere and devises some devlishly genius but flawed mechanism which is supposed to kill Bond but never manages to do so.

Yes, remember that cartoon called "Roadrunner"? Reminds me of that.

[Hannover]

This thread ties in with viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6163
'France's SNCF railroad blamed / furthering the Big Lie', see my comments there.

- Hannover

[Hannover]

Recently Pizzaman and Joachim Neander have been on a Treblinka kick claiming that it wasn't a transit camp in spite of the fact that I cited numerous examples of those who were transported out of this alleged 'pure extermination camp'. This thread serves that discussion well since the inbound records to camps are commonplace but the outbound records, for the most part, having curiously gone missing.

- Hannover

[Zulu]

When some believer asks me the question "If the 6 millions weren't gassed, where did they go?"
Suppose a moron saying that there were 100,000 victims of the 911.
When you state there were actually 2,606, the moron then asks you: "Where are gone the 97,394 others"?
That is the typical fallacy of that stuff on which we can't be driven.
I answer invariably : Well, do you have established properly WHO is actually missing? Have you a list? Then, if you can give me ONE name of that list, I'll try to give you the corresponding answer.
I made it recently with "Geza Lajtbs" which was the thing given to me as "the name" I asked for. I made a research and the result was a wonderful surprise which revealed the "inaccuracy" of the list of "Shoah victims" of Yad Vashem, several "irregularities" on the declarations of victims by their relatives and the falsity of captions on usual holophotos.
There are many answers to that fallacious question, see Sanning's statistics or works of Mattogno and Graf.

The actual issue is that, since the end of WWII, it seems that no accurate list of victims with their respective fate was properly established despite the huge data base available at Bad Arolsen and powerful computers able to make the job. If it exists one, that is not published. I am afraid that nobody wants to know the truth.

Since long time ago, the Pr. Faurisson has been asking to Serge Klarsfeld - the man in charge of establishing the statistics about the 75,721 Jewish deportees from France - if the researches on them were properly done at the ITS of Bad Arolsen and especially if the fate of the 11,426 Jewish children of that list has been actually defined.
The Professor has been denouncing the particular dishonesty of Klarsfeld who counts as "Shoah's victims" all the people of his list of deportees who hadn't registered themselves to the ancient combatant authorities in Paris before January 1946.
Only about 2,500 registered them conveniently, then Klarsfeld declared all the remaining as "gassed" by the nazis. Well, 60% of the Jewish deportees from France were foreigners - not French citizens - mostly coming from the Eastern countries of Europe. One can imagine that the survivors of that community didn't have particular reasons to return in France after the war.
Moreover, Robert Faurisson pointed blatant contradictions of the Klarsfeld's method by showing that alleged "gassed" on the list like Simone Veil of Henri Krasucki, both famous in France, were actually alive and living well in Paris.
What about all the children? Some returned in France in charge of humanitarian organizations and the IRC while others were placed under the protection of International Jewish Organizations like the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee which probably resettled a large number of them in Israel and in other countries of South America or Asia.

"By the end of 1950, some 440,000 Jews had reached Israel with the aid of JDC, in cooperation with the Jewish Agency for Israel."

http://www.jdc.org/jdc-history/years/1950.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_J ... _Committee

Were all those people including children registered properly as "survivors"? Were all the Jewish children and all other jews of the Klarsfeld's list propely traced at the ITS? That is the question which has not received a satisfactory answer and no related specific publications. Is that normal?

There are many interesting cases about "former gassed" whose fate was finally determined completely after a research properly made at the International Tracking Service of Bad Arolsen.
I like especially the case of Eugene Black, a survivor of those 400,000 "Hungarian Jews mostly gassed at Auschwitz" who used to claim that he saw his sisters "disappeared towards the gas chambers of Auschwitz" after the usual "selection process". By searching at the ITS in 2008 he finally discovered that his sisters were sent from Auschwitz to another camp near Buchenwald were they died under an allied bombing.

Survivor discovers sister was bombed not gassed
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5115&p=33099

[The Warden]

Recently Pizzaman and Joachim Neander have been on a Treblinka kick claiming that it wasn't a transit camp in spite of the fact that I cited numerous examples of those who were transported out of this alleged 'pure extermination camp'. This thread serves that discussion well since the inbound records to camps are commonplace but the outbound records, for the most part, having curiously gone missing.

- Hannover

I just don't see much reason to have the outbound records in the first place. The camps in question are "last stops". Not because they were extermination camps, but because of the fact the records end there. When a cab driver picks you up, he/she takes you where you need to go, drops you off, and has no clue where you go afterwards. The exterminationists are asking the cab driver where every passenger ever picked up has gone.

It's laughable.

[Hannover]

Warden said:

I just don't see much reason to have the outbound records in the first place. The camps in question are "last stops". Not because they were extermination camps, but because of the fact the records end there. When a cab driver picks you up, he/she takes you where you need to go, drops you off, and has no clue where you go afterwards. The exterminationists are asking the cab driver where every passenger ever picked up has gone.

It's laughable.

The reasons are numerous. From a basic sense of efficiency of use, to not wanting to provide fuel to the propagandists that were spreading disinformation about them. And the Germans certainly knew about the propaganda tales.

Here are some points in a rather random manner.

As I stated, The Germans would need to know where their trains were. I can't imagine a single train moving along without some sort of records after leaving one stop, then moving to another. Efficient use of the trains including the amounts of fuel, labor force used on the trains, repairs, labor force being transported, train contents, billing information requirements (yes, companies and people had to be paid), etc., would be absolutely critical. And that would involve keeping inbound records and outbound records for accounting purposes.

As has been demonstrated repeatedly here and in multiple Revisionist publications, Jews were transported into camps and out of camps for the purpose of labor and planned resettlement. Any country in the midst of a huge war for it's survival would want to know where their trains were so that the arrival of the trains could be anticipated in a timely manner. Even an empty train would need to be tracked such that the railway officials would know when to anticipate it's return, and when the train could be placed back into service. Pretty basic stuff.

It makes no sense for the Germans to leave behind inbound records but not to maintain outbound records. Knowing fully the false propaganda that was being spread about them and that a lack of outbound records could certainly be used against them. And of course, the propagandists clearly knew this, hence this accounts for the lack of outbound records. So very convenient.

With a massive war raging, trains provided practically everything needed, food, armaments, ammo, troops, workers being taken to labor sites. Empty, partially full, full, whatever, the requirements of knowing where the trains were would be immensely important to the war effort.

Thanks Warden.

- Hannover

[Balsamo]

MrNobody said:

Even if the "outbound records" have been destroyed, there may be a paper trail in the form of accounting records, the costs should differ from a loaded & unloaded train, so even though an out bound train may "appear" to be unloaded the cost to the SS Accounting Office will be the give away, since they wouldn't have paid for an empty train's return.

Actually no...sending packages as well as packs of Jews is all included...Just like the taxi (as some like the example), you only pay for your trip, and not for the cab's trip back to whatever he belongs.
I paid a ship to bring a container across the Atlantic, where the ship goes after that is not my business and i did not pay. on the other hand, one should have found new bills for the next part of those settlers journey.

Zulu said

Suppose a moron saying that there were 100,000 victims of the 911.
When you state there were actually 2,606, the moron then asks you: "Where are gone the 97,394 others"?

Funny comparison, but in this case, it is known and accepted that trainload of people were arriving there, let's say 3.000 to 5000 each day.

The Warden said

The exterminationists are asking the cab driver where every passenger ever picked up has gone.

Not really, the exterminatists, as you call them, are asking the Revisionists where the settlers were settled after they left the "cab" and were taken over by "Hospital Treblinka". Apparently, the only answer so far is "we don't know" (and/or "we don't care, not our problem).
Should be the starting point of an Revisionist narrative...settlements of hundred thousands of Jews should not be that difficult to find. Not even a single propaganda clip from Goebbels office - like the one on Theresienstadt - ...nope...nothing at all.

But the most astonishing element here, is that the Revisionists have spent much time and efforts to prove that Treblinka (i'll stay on this example) could not have had the capacity to kill those Jews, but had it to delouse them, wash their clothes in laudries, and of course to give them a shelter and some food while the whole process was taking place. All this for thousands of people daily. Great!

[Goethe]

Mr. Balsamo says this:

Actually no...sending packages as well as packs of Jews is all included...Just like the taxi (as some like the example), you only pay for your trip, and not for the cab's trip back to whatever he belongs.
I paid a ship to bring a container across the Atlantic, where the ship goes after that is not my business and i did not pay. on the other hand, one should have found new bills for the next part of those settlers journey.

Actually the minutiae in that seems irrelevant. There is still a record of the taxi completing his drop off and a receipt of payment. The driver communicates to the dispatcher of the completed job, the dispatcher then notes that this empty cab is available for service. The same would logically apply to trains, trucks, or any form transport service. You need to know where your units are. I seriously doubt that an inquiry by the Wehrmacht as to the availability of desperately needed trains would accept the response of, 'Gee, we don't know what happened to them when they got to ____''.

and this:

Funny comparison, but in this case, it is known and accepted that trainload of people were arriving there, let's say 3.000 to 5000 each day.

What's even more funny here is the complete lack of proof that these people were exterminated. It's also widely known that Jews were transited out of the camps, but the outbound records have vanished. Surely the Germans transporting people around to sites who were eagerly awaiting that labor would have kept records of the activities of the train at their previous destination, the contents unloaded and picked-up, numbers on board including much needed military personnel who worked on the train while guarding the train from attacks, and the critical departure times of the outbound trains. The Germans, masters of record keeping, somehow not keeping complete records about their valuable trains? Preposterous.

and this:

Not really, the exterminatists, as you call them, are asking the Revisionists where the settlers were settled after they left the "cab" and were taken over by "Hospital Treblinka". Apparently, the only answer so far is "we don't know" (and/or "we don't care, not our problem).
Should be the starting point of an Revisionist narrative...settlements of hundred thousands of Jews should not be that difficult to find. Not even a single propaganda clip from Goebbels office - like the one on Theresienstadt - ...nope...nothing at all.

But the most astonishing element here, is that the Revisionists have spent much time and efforts to prove that Treblinka (i'll stay on this example) could not have had the capacity to kill those Jews, but had it to delouse them, wash their clothes in laudries, and of course to give them a shelter and some food while the whole process was taking place. All this for thousands of people daily. Great!

First of all Jews weren't really resettled, there was a big war in the way of that. Jews were sent to resettlement camps in the hopes of, after the war, resettling the Jews far away from Germany. I refer all to the Schlegelberger document where Hitler states that the Jewish question is to be resolved after the war.

translation:

"Mr Reich Minister Lammers informed me that the Führer had repeatedly declared to him that he wants to hear that the Solution of the Jewish Problem has been postponed until after the war is over. That being so, the current discussions are of purely theoretical value, in Mr Reich Minister Lammers' opinion. He will moreover take pains to ensure that, whatever else happens, no fundamental decisions are taken without his knowledge in consequence of a surprise briefing by any third party."

And I see another false strawmann argument,

... the only answer so far is "we don't know" (and/or "we don't care, not our problem).

Very wrong. It has been demonstrated repeatedly that tons of Jews were transported out of the camps. And yes, the Germans deloused, fed, and provided shelter ... to those who were said to have been 'gassed upon arrival. Some "Holocaust" that was. And supposedly shipping Jews from all over Europe just be killed, having spent money, having wasted scarce fuel, manpower, and valuable trains? That assumption again turns logic on it's head. The 'missing' outbound train records are just too convenient.

[Zulu]

MrNobody said:

Zulu said

Suppose a moron saying that there were 100,000 victims of the 911.
When you state there were actually 2,606, the moron then asks you: "Where are gone the 97,394 others"?

Funny comparison, but in this case, it is known and accepted that trainload of people were arriving there, let's say 3.000 to 5000 each day.

OK they arrived and when you don't know what happened to them you say: "they were gassed" whithout having any proof of it while there are many evidences which contradict such allegation. So, you have a number of supposed gassed and while told that they were not gassed you ask "Where are they gone". OK, the answer is at the ITS for most of the cases. Many people who thought that their relatives were "gassed" at Auschwitz because they knew they arrived there and they had not notice of them anymore. Some have made researches and found what actually happened to them. I cited the case of Eugene Black and his former "2 gassed sisters"

Survivor discovers sister was bombed not gassed
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5115&p=33099&hilit=Eugene+Black#p33099

I previously assessed the case of "Geza Lajtbs", the "woman of the photo:
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/auschwitz ... Jews1.html

The solution of that case
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6370&p=45549&hilit=Lajtbs#p45549

To resume, what I pretend is that to each name of supposed "arrived" and supposedly "not went out" by lack of outbond records, there is a solution in most of cases by just checking the database of the ITS at Bad Arolsen. There, they have about 17 millions of individual files so we can guess that a few percentage of disappeared people wouldn't have solution. .
I am not telling that all of them are alive, I just say that if they died the ITS can generally give the place of the death , the date and the cause. The results of such researches can cause big surprises
That work should be made for all the names of the entrance lists to Auschwitz in order to establish a good figure of what actually happened to most of them. If that task is done, it was not published. If it is not, I ask, why so?