The falsehood of the Reinhard camps

[Kurland]

More of the same old rot from Lohengrin, citing hoaxter sources and trying to demonstrate revisionist truth. ???

Least he is not citing liewitness testimony anymore.

Completely invented nonsense. Of course I did not say that “millions” were being shipped off to Russia”. But I am convinced that hundreds of thousands could be moved there, as made clear in The Second Babylonian Captivity. The Fate of the Jews in Eastern Europe since 1941, by Steffen Werner. Not to mention Hilberg, who (rightfully) said that “we only know 20% of the Holocaust; especially what happened in the USSR, is barely known.” Okay, Kurland will say Hilberg is only a Lying Jew, but in this case I agree with Hilberg ("more or less").
Besides that, there are very good reasons to suppose that the fate of the Jews in Russia is a terra incognita, that needs to be investigated.

Why do you accept hundreds of thousands but not millions? Researcher Thomas Kues says in a article linked to in thread by Kingfisher that:

"Taken together, this means that the number of Jews who reached the occupied eastern territories almost certainly amounted to somewhere between 1,800,000 and 1,900,000."

He discounts the 400,000+ Hungarian Jews in spring 1944, but they must have been settled somewhere to the east if the transit camp thesis is correct as they do not show up in the concentration camp rolls anywhere at anytime to any significant degree. Either way you are looking at 2 million deported Jews (according to transit idea) roughly that you must account for in your idea. Also while Lohengrn says there were millions of postcards ("there were millions of it, face it, Kurland") he can only count 177 from Dutch Jews. Where are the others? Did all non Dutch postcards just disappear?

More on Dutch Jews. Lohengrin seems to swear by the hoaxter Dutch Sobibor Foundation and fact that they can show 33,000 jews' names who disappeared and were never heard from again. Do we need any more evidence of duplicity here? Why should we take this foundations word for these Jews names and information? Can they provide records of every individual and match them with the train records showing 33,000 dutch jews to Sobibor? My guess is they cannot. If we do faithfully accept the missing Jews then arent you playing into hoaxter game?

He has said before that his transit camp idea has "next to nothing" for way of proof. Then why must we accept it? Certainly not for evidence it is based upon. However my theory does have the evidence and does not suffer problems from explaining the missing jews.

Since Lohengrin has focused on Sobibor let us stay with that. He cites a July 43 note by Pohl which refers to "Durchgangslager Sobibor". I accept that document. Perhaps the area did serve to send a few thousand jews to work on fortifications in east or other projects for war. These matters can be documented/unlike resettlements. However I have a greater document from 20 June 1942, which Lohengrin even briefly refers to in his post-part of his continued duplicity. This note from the police chief of the Vienna precinct discusses some deportation of Austrian jews to Sobibor. That document states:

"SS Obersturmfuhrer Pohl was waiting (in Lublin), and he ordered that ffty-one able Jews between the ages of fifteen and fifty disembark and be brought to a labor camp…At that time he gave an order that the remaining 949 Jews were to be taken to the labour camp at Sobibor.”

Notice the "labour camp" at Sobibor? Apparently not. This document should be given more weight than the Pohl note because it was written during the 1942 deportations where tens of thousands of Jews are alleged to have been brought to Sobibor. Nor does the police officer identify any resettlement sites or destinations beyond sobibor for the austrian jews. Sobibor is their destination and they are there to work. Remember also the July 42 Treblinka II construction document that I referred to elsewhere in this thread which Lohengrin has ignored as that doc also refers to the new camp as a "labour camp."

Lohengrin also lies about my thesis. He said that my thesis proposes "no camps" in the areas of Belzec Treblinka Sobibor. Thats not true. Even from my first and second posts to this thread I said that whatever was there was related to work camps. Dishonesty.

Finally, Lohengrin fails to respond to the fact that Hitler didnt want a final solution of the jews until after the war. This is well documented as my previous post shows. A deportation of hundreds thousands/millions of jews would be part of such a solution, one that Hitler did NOT want. Instead of addressing this point he just dodges it and moves on.

[Balsamo]

Maybe Barncat or Kurland could share with the rest of us his/their "Jewish, hoaxter's, communists allies influences free" sources he is working with.
Could be a very interesting alternative bibliography of the Holocaust.
Be sure to send a copy to Mattogno who at least spent times in Archives...I am sure you'll be willing to help him in his work and to protect him from further "zionist jewish communist" allie's influences.

[Lohengrin]

It's useless to reply again to this Kurland. I think he's a Troll, and if not, he shows all characteristics as such.

In my last post I debunked all of his his nonsense, but he
- goes on to neglect the arguments
- he keeps twisting my words and motives
- he gives nope facts or arguments
- and so on and so further.

Did he take notice of the source I gave him with the names, date of birth, transport dates, etc. of the 33.000 Jews from Holland to Sobibor? (I gave him the title of the list and the name and address of the publisher). NO. He can only speak of "Hoaxter sources" and "Lying witness". However, I will attend him on the fact that next to ALL revisionists and ALL revisionist studies are for the greater part based on this same "Hoaxter sources"!

Does he know anything about those "Transportlijsten"? NO.
Does he want to know something about it? NO.
Does he give any argument? NO.
Does he gives any source? NO.
What kind of "discussion" is this?
He says:

Can they provide records of every individual and match them with the train records showing 33,000 dutch jews to Sobibor? My guess is they cannot.

The correct answer is: 100% YES! (Read them first, poor Kurland!)

The same for the postcards. No less than two times I emphasized to him that those 177 cards Mattogno mentioned, were ONLY from Holland, ONLY from Jews sent to Sobibor and ONLY received by particular addressees in Holland. If you extrapolate that to ALL transported Jews, from ALL countries, in ALL camps and to ALL people received them (some of them more than 1 card at different times during the War) then the "millions" are - as a child will understand - much less unbelievable.
But, as I also said: if there was 1 card only, the existence of the camps is evident.

Its evident Kurland also cannot read:

Why do you accept hundreds of thousands but not millions? Researcher Thomas Kues says in a article linked to in thread by Kingfisher that: "Taken together, this means that the number of Jews who reached the occupied eastern territories almost certainly amounted to somewhere between 1,800,000 and 1,900,000."

In the first place, Kues speaks of "reached the occupied territories", that's refugees; I speak of "transported to" by the Germans. Oh, that's another kind of thing . . .
Moreover I don't "accept" anything: I gave my own rough estimation, based on information I have.
(By the way, did Kurland read anything of the "Second Babylonian Captivity" of Steffen Werner (not a "Lying Jew") as I suggested to him? Of course NOT.

Kurland prefers to place the description of the police-chief of Vienna above mine of Pohl.

"SS Obersturmfuhrer Pohl was waiting (in Lublin), and he ordered that ffty-one able Jews between the ages of fifteen and fifty disembark and be brought to a labor camp…At that time he gave an order that the remaining 949 Jews were to be taken to the labour camp at Sobibor.”

Apart from the huge distance in know-how about camps and their function between this two officials, I give not a penny for the description of Vienna's police-chief. Even the commandant of Westerbork - from were 33.000 Jews were transported to Sobibor, speaks of 'deportation to Arbeitslager'. For all Germans all Jews were sent to Arbeitslager; they simply didn't make any distinction between camps hundreds of Miles away. It would have been very odd if Pohl had said: "bring them to Transit camp Sobibor". . . But, it is a fact that from Transitcamp Sobibor lots of jews were send to Arbeitslager as Dorohucza and other in the vicinity and further off.

The Hungarian Jews Kurland introduces here, are totally mistaken too.

He discounts the 400,000+ Hungarian Jews in spring 1944, but they must have been settled somewhere to the east if the transit camp thesis is correct as they do not show up in the concentration camp rolls anywhere at anytime to any significant degree.

As everyone but Kurland knows, all "Reinhardt" camps were May 1944, since when the Hungarian Jews were transported, already dismantled! It were short-term Transit camps, you know . . . They went to Auschwitz and lots of other Arbeitslager.

He has said before that his transit camp idea has "next to nothing" for way of proof. Then why must we accept it?

This is true: I said that. But, if Kurland can (or will) read, he also knows that I comply with Mattogno, who wrote about this: Tertium non datur a third possibility (other than Transit camp) doesn't exist.

I'm afraid that any further "discussion" with Kurland about (non)existence and function of those Transit camps is completely senseless. I wish him good luck with it in Fantasy-land.

[Kurland]

I'm afraid that any further "discussion" with Kurland about (non)existence and function of those Transit camps is completely senseless. I wish him good luck with it in Fantasy-land.

This is utter nonsense as is most of Lohengrin's childish response ("poor Kurland" "troll" "fantasy land" "another kind of thing"). This whole thread displays who really lives in fantasy land and who has avoided the points and evidence of debate. Just a brief recap, for my thesis that the Treblinka Sobibor and Belzec camps were related to and served the interests of the labor camps in the eastern General Government (and not any supposed gas chambers or transit centers)I have relied upon the following information among others:

1) The Physical Evidence from the camp sites themselves-which are relatively insignificant
2) Post war Korherr Letter-where he admits that any Jews deported were sent to the Lublin district.
3) The Forgery of the Hoefle memorandum-which has been discussed on this forum
4) The 07 July 42 construction letter for Treblinka II-which refers to the camp as an Arbeitslager/labour camp
5) The Krege report-which is related to point 1 and which further supports my position
6) The Schlegelberger Memo-which proves Hitler did not want to bother with the Jews until AFTER the war.
7) Luther memo-which supports the Schlegelberger memo
8 ) The 20 June 42 letter from the Vienna police chief- which refers to Sobibor as Arbeitslager/labour camp
9) The uncontested fact that work camps for Jews littered the immediate areas and the Reinhardt camps.
10) Confirmed fact that all documented inmates deported from Sobibor Belzec and Treblinka were sent to nearby work camps and NOT any other location for resettlement (disproves transit idea, strengthens focus on labour). Witnesses also testify to this point and we have seen how much Lohengrin relies on such a source.

No doubt there is much more that could be written for my position which will be further born out in the coming weeks and months in future articles and postings. In contrast “poor” Lohengrin as he likes to say can only rely on:

1) Franz Stangl-unreliable witness who testified to use of gas chambers at Treblinka!

2) Postcards from Jews in Eastern camps-from deportees which cannot be shown to really exist nor be shown to be from deportees from the Reinhard camps. To demonstrate this, records show that the several thousand Jews sent to the occupied USSR from Vienna were sent to Minsk-Bialystok via Malkinia and NOT through Treblinka. Thus Lohengrins idea is shown to be false and he fails to explain the purpose of another transit camp off of main line to Belorussia.

3) Steffen Werner’s Second Babylonian Captivity- Lohengrin nearly demands that I read this book to disprove my thesis, but I already have, and I found it extremely lacking.
While revisionist historian Jurgen Graf has shown respect for the attempt, Graf has said that Werner only has “speculation” to offer and that he regards his thesis as “impossible” and with “some obvious defects.” These must not be so obvious for Lohengrin. Mattogno did not even use the source for his valuable Treblinka book (in either German or English version). Some groundbreaking study!

The book is also disproven due to the records showing Vienna Jews being transited to East through Malkinia and not Treblinka.

4) Alleged Dutch transport lists and a few postcards-both of which Lohengrin hasn’t answered questions on in my previous posts.

5) July 43 letter from Pohl to Himmler which refers to Sobibor as transit camp-which I have said could easy be true if workers were sent to east to work on forts against Soviets. Overruled by Arbeitslager reference from Vienna police chief who was privy to inside information on deportations given that he organized them.

He has continually spun my words and looked silly including by thinking that I was unaware of Hungarian Jews being sent to Auschwitz in 1944—my point was on falseness of transit camp idea as in reality camps were used for labour -not just on Reinhard camps; similarly attempted spin on my words in reference to Kues' article on deportations, which he tries to claim are "refugees" who werent deported despite Kues'statements inside article and very title. !!

I remain sceptical of Lohengrins motives. Any ‘revisionist’ who relies wholeheartedly on Hilberg, gas chamber witnesses, and other hoaxter sources to support his position gives off a foul stench in my book. I leave it to the informed and esteemed reader to make up their minds on this topic for themselves, and thank them for the several messages of support that I have received.

[Kingfisher]

This may also be relevant to your discussion: http://www.vho.org/tr/2004/2/Nordling155-158.html

But, please, both of you: Stop calling each other names and concentrate on the arguments.

[Barncat]

Interesting, the Nordling article linked by Kingfisher states that the population of
the Warsaw ghetto at its zenith may have been only 200,000.

According to statistics offered at USHMM, over 100,000 ghetto dwellers died of
desease and starvation, while 60,000 remained in the ghetto up to the time of
the so-called uprising. This suggests that the tale of 300,000 deported, whether
to a death or transit camp is simply another silly holo-fairytale.

Using Nordlings figures and suggestion that Jews had taken it upon themselves to
migrate into the Soviet sphere, it is easy to conclude that there would have been
very few Jews to deport. This supports Kurland's argument that the Reinhard camps
were small labor camps whose instalations would have been dismantled ahead of the
Soviet army.

[Arsènelupin]

If Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor etc... were not transit camps, what kind of explanation can we give to their location near the former eastern border of the Genreral Government, i.e. eastern border of the "great Reich" ?

[Kurland]

If Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor etc... were not transit camps, what kind of explanation can we give to their location near the former eastern border of the Genreral Government, i.e. eastern border of the "great Reich" ?

I dont see why a explanation is needed. The camps start in areas that were exploited by the Germans for economy reasons. The 3 camps did not originate as transit or death camps but were labour camps, functioning to serve economic needs by mining particular resource from the land. There were also many wartime industries in this area during the war. From the terror attacks of westerners many industries were moved to the area from western and central Europe. The jews were needed as labor and they went were the industries were located. This is well confirmed fact by other revisionist researches such as Staeglich and Mattogno who document the industries in the area and transports to those industries. This is provable and makes sense. Whats not provable is any type of transit camp, which would make no sense just in these areas. Just as much is fact that documents on jews deported to russian territories by Germans during war went by other camps and not by these three. This is because jews deported to these areas were mostly labourers for industries in eastern gen. gov.

Hope that helped

[Question Everything]

There exist many postcards, quotations, etc. coming from people who went to Treblinka II and were transferred to other places. Mattogno/Graf gave quite a lot thereof in Treblinka, Vernichtungslager oder Durchgangslager? (the Title excluding any other possibility).
To give some examples, postcards were send to Warsaw some weeks/months after Jews from Warsaw were deported to Treblinka, cards coming from Bialystok, Pinsk, Bobruisk, Brzesc, Smolensk, Brest Litowsk and Minsk. (Weber, Andrew Allen "Treblinka", aaO. Anm. 107, p. 139f; Kulischer aaO. Anm. 797, p. 110f). Other sources are Informacja Biezaca of August 30 1942, which spoke of "2.000 Handwerkern from Warsaw to Smolensk, 4.000 persons from Warsaw to Brzesc and Malachowicze, etc., etc.

I would also like to see these postcards. Apparently they were from "escaped jews", nevertheless not saying anything particularly alarming. Dr. Terry is suggesting that those sent to Treblinka were made to write letters to their relatives to reassure them.

The Bund newspaper Oif der Vach published a lengthy article about Treblinka on September 20:

‘The Jews of Warsaw Are Killed in Treblinka’
During the first week of the “deportation Aktion” Warsaw was flooded with greetings from the deported Jews. The greetings arrived from Białystok, Brest-Litovsk, Kosov, Malkinia, Pinsk, Smolensk. All this was a lie. All the trains with the Warsaw Jews went to Treblinka, where the Jews were murdered in the most cruel way. The letters and greetings came from people who succeeded in escaping from the trains or from the camp. It is possible that in the beginning, from the first transports, some of the Warsaw Jews were sent to Brest-Litovsk or Pinsk, in order that their greetings would mislead, deceive, and provoke false illusions among the Jews in Warsaw.
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... _8672.html

Let's get this story straight. Apparently early 1941 there were 30,000 jews in Pinsk (I'd need to look where Encyclopedia of the Holocaust gets this figure from). Ze evil Germans killed off 11,000 males early August 1941. Ze evil Germans did inexplicably not have time to finish the job and left 19,000 or so witnesses behind (mostly women and children) who were living and working among the locals. Apparently there were masses of letters and/or postcards sent from Pinsk after the deportations from Warsaw to "Treblinka" from summer of 1942. Despite 11,000 male jews having been killed, no one seems to mention anything is up in their mail correspondence.

According to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, there were about 30,000 Jews in Pinsk in early 1941.
http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/bela ... ghetto.htm

The liquidation of Pinsk Ghetto began in August 1941, with a murder of 11,000 males. This action was temporarily suspended when the murder-units were moved to another location. 18,000 persons were left in the ghetto, mostly women and children and some men who had managed to escape the first slaughter.

More weirdness:

I divided the ghetto population of 17,344 according to the lists that we have into three groups:

Men age 15 and up: 2,473 – 14%
Women age 15 and up: 8,615 – 50%
Children up to age 15: 6,256 – 36%
Out of all the listed names: 17,344 = 100%

http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/bela ... reshet.htm

So it seems the original composition before everything began was:

Men age 15 and up: 2,473 + ~11,000 =~ – 13,473
Women age 15 and up: 8,615 – 50%
Children up to age 15: 6,256 – 36%
Out of all the listed names: 17,344 = 100%

Hmmmm... Either polygamy was very popular among jews or they killed female babies like in India, the men/women ratio is slightly off. What I notice is that instead 6,200 men are missing to make the ratio of men to women 1:1. This can be perfectly explained that men of military age might be off fighting for the Soviets and wouldn't stay behind for the Germans. No need for ze Germans to kill 11,000 male jews.

Further, it seems we have some triple counting in the Holo-math leading to 5.1 or 6 million or whatever. Thousands of the jews sent from Warsaw to "Treblinka"/Pinsk are probably counted as dead:

ONCE as the residents of the ghetto of Warsaw are mostly assumed to have been eliminated
TWICE as everyone that had Zugang (Hoefle Telegram, Korherr report) to Treblinka is assumed to have been killed upon arrival
THREE TIMES as nearly everyone in the Pinsk ghetto is assumed to have been killed too

[borjastick]

I think to suggest the Reinhard camps didn't actually exist is pushing it too far but the general idea that they were of little importance is a reasonable position. I confess my knowledge of Sobibor is a little thin, but Treblinka is a subject i am more aware of. Mattogno's recent book is very good and sheds light on the main usage of Treblinka as a transit camp. Added to this we must acknowledge the complete range of stupid witness revelations about the place, the total lack of physical evidence to back up the claims of 700,000+ deaths etc. Then we have the theory of people like Thomas Dalton which is that as a transit camp it had a simple and short life. To receive transports, process these people for onward transport which generally speaking meant that a de lousing and shower etc did the job.

Once Treblinka served its purpose it was closed down and destroyed, thus as we know there is little to reveal. A soil sample might still reveal excessive concentrations of de-lousing agent. The jews transported through these camps were of a number never really verified and then sent on for a life, such as could be expected, further east.

If you think about the claims of the holohoaxters for Treblinka they really are extraordinarily dumb, they simply don't hold water. Read the testimony of Jankiel Wiernik to see what I mean, the man is a complete lunatic.

[Jotun]

I think to suggest the Reinhard camps didn't actually exist is pushing it too far but the general idea that they were of little importance is a reasonable position. I confess my knowledge of Sobibor is a little thin, but Treblinka is a subject i am more aware of. Mattogno's recent book is very good and sheds light on the main usage of Treblinka as a transit camp. Added to this we must acknowledge the complete range of stupid witness revelations about the place, the total lack of physical evidence to back up the claims of 700,000+ deaths etc. Then we have the theory of people like Thomas Dalton which is that as a transit camp it had a simple and short life. To receive transports, process these people for onward transport which generally speaking meant that a de lousing and shower etc did the job.

Once Treblinka served its purpose it was closed down and destroyed, thus as we know there is little to reveal. A soil sample might still reveal excessive concentrations of de-lousing agent. The jews transported through these camps were of a number never really verified and then sent on for a life, such as could be expected, further east.

If you think about the claims of the holohoaxters for Treblinka they really are extraordinarily dumb, they simply don't hold water. Read the testimony of Jankiel Wiernik to see what I mean, the man is a complete lunatic.

Is there a reason you chose to belive that Mattognos book is good compared to others like Antony Beevor which describes the Trablinka camp in a totally different way in World War II
http://www.antonybeevor.com/

[Kingfisher]

That would be the same Anthony Beevor who claims in Stalingrad, without supporting evidence, that the Germans lined the muddy Russian roads with corpses to get better traction?