Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

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Re: Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

Postby curioussoul » 3 weeks 4 days ago (Mon May 15, 2023 5:18 pm)

bombsaway wrote:Rawa-Ruska was incorporated into the General Government in 1941, so this doesn't even contradict Goebbels' very short comment. Belzec was 5 miles east of Rawa-Ruska (and 10 miles away overall). This is significant to you somehow?


Whether or not Rawa-Ruska was incorporated into the General Government/Distrikt Galizien is functionally irrelevant in the context of the region being located to the east of each of the Reinhard camps. Orthodox Holocaust historians deny the use of the Reinhard camps for transiting Jews further east. If it can be shown that even a fraction of the Jews deported to the Reinhard camps were sent further east (which has already been demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt by Thomas Kues), the entire narrative of the Reinhard camps, and by extension the Holocaust, falls flat.

They weren't indifferent at all. Regarding Galicia (the region Lvov was in), which you claim was a massive dumping ground for Jews from all across Europe, the Germans went to great lengths to "resettle" all these Jews over again -- as soon as they got there it would seem.


That wasn't my claim. That was the claim of French POW Paul Roser during the Nuremberg trials. My claim is not that Rawa-Ruska specifically was to become a Jewish settlement, or even a designated holding ground pending further settlement in Eastern Europe after the war. My claim is simply that Rawa-Ruska ended up becoming one of many regions in which Jews deported through the Reinhard camps ended up, temporarily or not. Roser's comment obviously is not specific enough to assess the actual number of Jews present there. The most significant aspect of his testimony is his claim that Jews from all the countries of Europe were present there, which is in stark contrast to official historiography, which is completely unable to explain the presence of foreign Jews in many of these regions.

The unfortunate reality is that we know very little of the hundreds of camps set up by the Germans to house the astronomical numbers of Jews being sent there throughout 1942 and early 1943. Only minor clues and traces indicate their presence in these regions, and the Germans evidently did not go to great lengths to document these provisional and often times extremely primitive open-air camps. As Kues highlights, this was very indicative of German policy fulfillment as regards ambitious projects throughout the war. A command from Berlin would often fall on local leaders to implement within a mere days or even hours, regardless of the human or logistical costs. In the case of the Jews slated for resettlement in Eastern Europe, the ambition was clearly for an orderly establishment of Jewish reserves in Eastern Europe after the war; these plans naturally fell through when the tide of the war turned against the Germans, and the millions of Jews who had been hastily crammed into primitive camps and temporary settlements were simply left to fend for themselves, escape or fall into the hands of the Soviets. Many undoubtedly died even before the Soviets ever reached former German-occupied parts of Ukraine and Belarus.

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Re: Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

Postby michael_luna_94 » 3 weeks 4 days ago (Mon May 15, 2023 6:37 pm)

The unfortunate reality is that we know very little of the hundreds of camps set up by the Germans to house the astronomical numbers of Jews being sent there throughout 1942 and early 1943. Only minor clues and traces indicate their presence in these regions, and the Germans evidently did not go to great lengths to document these provisional and often times extremely primitive open-air camps. As Kues highlights, this was very indicative of German policy fulfillment as regards ambitious projects throughout the war. A command from Berlin would often fall on local leaders to implement within a mere days or even hours, regardless of the human or logistical costs. In the case of the Jews slated for resettlement in Eastern Europe, the ambition was clearly for an orderly establishment of Jewish reserves in Eastern Europe after the war; these plans naturally fell through when the tide of the war turned against the Germans, and the millions of Jews who had been hastily crammed into primitive camps and temporary settlements were simply left to fend for themselves, escape or fall into the hands of the Soviets. Many undoubtedly died even before the Soviets ever reached former German-occupied parts of Ukraine and Belarus.


Thanks for summing it up. It makes sense what you're saying - an area/camp hastily thrown together with limited or no housing would naturally not have documentation on building orders, supply deliveries and the like. One because construction was limited or non existent at such camps and two because these camps, as you say, were generally not centrally organized but it was left up to the local German military/administration to do what they could.

And maybe a third point, the Germans knew that conditions for POWs and resettled Jews would not be good but what else were they to do? They couldn't unleash them on the local inhabitants or prioritize their necessities over that of German soldiers fighting for survival on the front lines.

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Re: Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

Postby bombsaway » 3 weeks 4 days ago (Mon May 15, 2023 10:16 pm)

curioussoul wrote:y claim is not that Rawa-Ruska specifically was to become a Jewish settlement, or even a designated holding ground pending further settlement in Eastern Europe after the war. My claim is simply that Rawa-Ruska ended up becoming one of many regions in which Jews deported through the Reinhard camps ended up, temporarily or not. Roser's comment obviously is not specific enough to assess the actual number of Jews present there. The most significant aspect of his testimony is his claim that Jews from all the countries of Europe were present there, which is in stark contrast to official historiography, which is completely unable to explain the presence of foreign Jews in many of these regions.


Is it your claim that Jews were not deported west to the Reinhard camps, so any Jews that were brought east of these camps necessarily passed through them?

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Re: Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

Postby Hektor » 3 weeks 4 days ago (Tue May 16, 2023 1:47 am)

curioussoul wrote:[.....

The unfortunate reality is that we know very little of the hundreds of camps set up by the Germans to house the astronomical numbers of Jews being sent there throughout 1942 and early 1943. Only minor clues and traces indicate their presence in these regions, and the Germans evidently did not go to great lengths to document these provisional and often times extremely primitive open-air camps. .....



It is little, but it isn't zero.

Image

Taken, this could be investigated more. But those all in territories that fell under Soviet Control 1945 and later. They put a limit on information flows, hence little is known about them. And well, I'd guess there wasn't really much interest to have narratives spread that don't fit the Holocaust Narrative.

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Re: Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

Postby curioussoul » 3 weeks 3 days ago (Tue May 16, 2023 4:03 pm)

bombsaway wrote:Is it your claim that Jews were not deported west to the Reinhard camps, so any Jews that were brought east of these camps necessarily passed through them?


No, none of those are my claims. The Reinhard camps served a bureaucratic and logistical purpose, and the main purpose of Project Reinhard was to seize Jewish goods in conjunction with the German resettlement policy. So the concept of Jews being transported westwards to be processed in a Reinhard camp is not alien to the revisionist hypothesis. Conversely, Jews were also deported straight to the occupied eastern territories from places like Terezín and Austria, although that number is relatively miniscule compared to the Reinhard Jews.

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Re: Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

Postby bombsaway » 3 weeks 3 days ago (Tue May 16, 2023 6:34 pm)

curioussoul wrote:
bombsaway wrote:Is it your claim that Jews were not deported west to the Reinhard camps, so any Jews that were brought east of these camps necessarily passed through them?


No, none of those are my claims. The Reinhard camps served a bureaucratic and logistical purpose, and the main purpose of Project Reinhard was to seize Jewish goods in conjunction with the German resettlement policy. So the concept of Jews being transported westwards to be processed in a Reinhard camp is not alien to the revisionist hypothesis. Conversely, Jews were also deported straight to the occupied eastern territories from places like Terezín and Austria, although that number is relatively miniscule compared to the Reinhard Jews.


You said: "My claim is simply that Rawa-Ruska ended up becoming one of many regions in which Jews deported through the Reinhard camps ended up, temporarily or not."

How do you know they went through the Reinhard camps first? The only witness you have used here claims otherwise: "We knew in a vague sort of way at that time that these trains stopped at Belcec, which was located about 17 kilometers from our camp; and at that point they executed these wretched people, by what means I do not know."

Basically this entire situation should illuminate for you and anybody reading the dearth of evidence for Polish Jews being transported out of the GG. Yes there is a lot of evidence of them being transported west into the GG (from Bialystock, Lvov, etc), specifically back into the Reinhard camps.

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Re: Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

Postby curioussoul » 3 weeks 1 day ago (Fri May 19, 2023 5:33 am)

bombsaway wrote:You said: "My claim is simply that Rawa-Ruska ended up becoming one of many regions in which Jews deported through the Reinhard camps ended up, temporarily or not."

How do you know they went through the Reinhard camps first? The only witness you have used here claims otherwise: "We knew in a vague sort of way at that time that these trains stopped at Belcec, which was located about 17 kilometers from our camp; and at that point they executed these wretched people, by what means I do not know."

Basically this entire situation should illuminate for you and anybody reading the dearth of evidence for Polish Jews being transported out of the GG. Yes there is a lot of evidence of them being transported west into the GG (from Bialystock, Lvov, etc), specifically back into the Reinhard camps.


It may be inferred from Roser's testimony that the Jews in the "kind of immense ghetto" in Rawa-Ruska must have, at least in part, been processed through the Reinhard camps, because the Jews deported straight to the occupied eastern territories (without going through a transit camp) are few in number and not from a particularly large set of countries (and I'm not sure they were ever sent to Distrikt Galizien - if memory serves me, they were actually sent to Minsk), whereas Roser claims that Jews from "all the countries of Europe" were present in this ghetto. In a previous post, you claimed that these Jews could have been sent there pending execution in a Reinhard camp, but that's utterly inconceivable and completely at odds with the official extermination thesis. If that's the case, from where did these Jews come and when were they deported there by direct transport? The entire point of Roser's testimony is that Jews from all over Europe were present in Rawa-Ruska, and the only viable explanation is that they came from a Reinhard camp. Where else would they have come from?

And as I pointed out, the fact that Jews present in Rawa-Ruska/Lvov were being sent a short distance west to be processed in one of the Reinhard camps is in no way at odds with the revisionist hypothesis, given the actual role of these camps within Project Reinhard.

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Re: Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

Postby Hektor » 3 weeks 19 hours ago (Fri May 19, 2023 11:09 am)

curioussoul wrote:
bombsaway wrote:You said: "My claim is simply that Rawa-Ruska ended ... Lvov, etc), specifically back into the Reinhard camps.


It may be inferred from Roser's testimony that the Jews in the "kind of immense ghetto" in Rawa-Ruska must have, at least in part, been processed through the Reinhard camps, because the Jews deported straight to the occupied eastern territories (without going through a transit camp) are few in number and not from a particularly large set of countries (and I'm not sure they were ever sent to Distrikt Galizien - if memory serves me, they were actually sent to Minsk), whereas Roser claims that Jews from "all the countries of Europe" were present in this ghetto. In a previous post, you claimed that these Jews could have been sent there pending execution in a Reinhard camp, ....


Obviously a physical removal operation.
What's the proof that this was anything more, like e.g. an extermination operation at the camps next to the railways, as alleged?

Show us some physical evidence that is in line with what's asserted... And not something that happens to be in line with marginal mortality or can be explained in other ways.

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Re: Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

Postby bombsaway » 3 weeks 18 hours ago (Fri May 19, 2023 11:32 am)

curioussoul wrote:
It may be inferred from Roser's testimony that the Jews in the "kind of immense ghetto" in Rawa-Ruska must have, at least in part, been processed through the Reinhard camps, because the Jews deported straight to the occupied eastern territories (without going through a transit camp) are few in number and not from a particularly large set of countries (and I'm not sure they were ever sent to Distrikt Galizien - if memory serves me, they were actually sent to Minsk), whereas Roser claims that Jews from "all the countries of Europe" were present in this ghetto. In a previous post, you claimed that these Jews could have been sent there pending execution in a Reinhard camp, but that's utterly inconceivable and completely at odds with the official extermination thesis. If that's the case, from where did these Jews come and when were they deported there by direct transport? The entire point of Roser's testimony is that Jews from all over Europe were present in Rawa-Ruska, and the only viable explanation is that they came from a Reinhard camp. Where else would they have come from?

And as I pointed out, the fact that Jews present in Rawa-Ruska/Lvov were being sent a short distance west to be processed in one of the Reinhard camps is in no way at odds with the revisionist hypothesis, given the actual role of these camps within Project Reinhard.


Where else would they have come from? Western Europe. Then they were held in ghettos in the General Government (eg @ Rawa Ruska) and sent to the Reinhard camps. This is expressed in the Goebbels diary entry I quoted earlier.

"The ghettos that will be emptied in the cities of the General Government will now be refilled with Jews thrown out (ausgeschobenen) of the Reich. This process is to be repeated from time to time. "

I'm sure there are some deportation records of this happening, but it seems like a minor aspect of the history so research would be tough and I don't have a lot of time right now.

You're right, this doesn't contradict the revisionist narrative, which is that the Reinhard camps had an important function in terms of property appropriation and delousing for Jews slated for resettlement further East. What I'm saying is no evidence exists of this further east resettlement.

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Re: Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

Postby HistorySpeaks » 3 weeks 17 hours ago (Fri May 19, 2023 1:15 pm)

It's humorous how much ink deniers spill over resettlement of Jews during the war while never addressing the fundamental issue: What happened to the 1.4 million Jews sent to the Reinhardt camps? Kues' work for example is an ocean of non sequiturs.

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Re: Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

Postby fireofice » 3 weeks 16 hours ago (Fri May 19, 2023 1:23 pm)

HistorySpeaks wrote:It's humorous how much ink deniers spill over resettlement of Jews during the war while never addressing the fundamental issue: What happened to the 1.4 million Jews sent to the Reinhardt camps? Kues' work for example is an ocean of non sequiturs.

Certainly not in the ground, since it hasn't been dug up and photographed.

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Re: Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

Postby Hektor » 3 weeks 16 hours ago (Fri May 19, 2023 1:26 pm)

HistorySpeaks wrote:It's humorous how much ink deniers spill over resettlement of Jews during the war while never addressing the fundamental issue: What happened to the 1.4 million Jews sent to the Reinhardt camps? Kues' work for example is an ocean of non sequiturs.


If there is no human remains corresponding to the 1.4 million. It's reasonable to assume that they went elsewhere.

Well. Exterminationists insist they know for certain that they were gassed and spend lots of ink asserting this over and over again. They don't spare people with innuendo and emotional trickery neither. But what's the physical evidence for this assertion? And if it exists, why didn't they bring this up decades ago already?

Simply claiming that 1.4 mil people were gassed, because they were on some transportation list without looking for remains and proof of death and then notifying anyone looking for people they are missing that the missing people were gassed is a bit odd. In fact it shows a great deal of cruelty and seeking advantage from homicide claims, normally considered to be slander or libel.

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Re: Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

Postby HistorySpeaks » 3 weeks 16 hours ago (Fri May 19, 2023 1:32 pm)

As I mentioned in the debate with Dalton: an explanation with incomplete evidence (in this case the incomplete but still colossal physical evidence of the death of the 1.4 million Jews, as well as all the testimonial and documentary evidence) is superior to an explanation with zero physical evidence (resettlements of Reinhardt Jews).

Also, there are no genocides or wars where we exhume all the bodies and do a "skull count."

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Re: Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

Postby fireofice » 3 weeks 16 hours ago (Fri May 19, 2023 2:08 pm)

HistorySpeaks wrote:As I mentioned in the debate with Dalton: an explanation with incomplete evidence (in this case the incomplete but still colossal physical evidence of the death of the 1.4 million Jews, as well as all the testimonial and documentary evidence) is superior to an explanation with zero physical evidence (resettlements of Reinhardt Jews).

Also, there are no genocides or wars where we exhume all the bodies and do a "skull count."

We have where the mass graves are supposed to be:

viewtopic.php?p=105040#p105040

Where are the photos of the mass graves? It is completely reasonable to ask for photographs of the alleged mass graves. If you can't even do that, then you got nothing. Who are you to complain about others not being able to find where other people are who moved around if you can't even find them stationary in a specific place the ground?

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Re: Upcoming Written Holocaust Debate [Dalton vs. HistorySpeaks]

Postby Hektor » 3 weeks 15 hours ago (Fri May 19, 2023 2:59 pm)

HistorySpeaks wrote:As I mentioned in the debate with Dalton: an explanation with incomplete evidence (in this case the incomplete but still colossal physical evidence of the death of the 1.4 million Jews, as well as all the testimonial and documentary evidence) is superior to an explanation with zero physical evidence (resettlements of Reinhardt Jews).

Also, there are no genocides or wars where we exhume all the bodies and do a "skull count."

That sounds like a repetition of court room theatrics.

Let me put it mildly, what has been shown so far is less than underwhelming. And there is no evidence being given that remains found at those said are actually stemming from what is alleged. Reminder. This was in a war zone. This was in a Communist country whose masters had no qualms of killing people in large masses, in case this was considered 'furthering the cause'. So ultimately this is zero evidence for what is alleged.

The Holocaustians act like people that desperately try to frame others. This reveals a large amount of criminal energy and hate. But is no proof for genocide (against Jews). The train records etc. bear witness to physical removal, not more.

Living people don't have to leave physical evidence. They can move. So them not being there, simply means they went elsewhere.
There were exhumations for Rwanda and Cambodia genocides. And well, neither Rwandans nor Cambodians bug the world for money, compensation and privileges all the time. Neither do they have 'white knights' doing missionary work for them. Guess people aren't as emotionally invested in this, understandable since there are virtually no indoctrination campaigns to push those issues.


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