Details leading up to war...

[Elroy]

Just finished skimming (reading quickly) Truth For German's by Udo Wallendy. Could really have been called truth for everyone.

His book does a marvelous job of putting all the documents and transcripts in sequence and presents the case beyond any doubt where the guilt for starting the war was.

His book attests to Polish atrocities against German's prior to Sep 1. I understand, that even though the argument that there were no atrocities prior to the German invasion is just absurd- it is a lynch pin for that matter for the lie-history.

I have a few questions if anybody has concrete answers and good references...

1. The Lufthansa planes en route to Konigsberg that were allegedly shot down in late August by Polish air defences. IS this true and what is the evidence for this? Never encountered it yet with reference or in the text of Truth for German's or other for example.

2. Was Mr. Hacha "summoned" to Germany by Hitler, or did Hacha request an audience from Hitler? Both versions appear. More importantly- Hacha's daughter (name?) stated post war that her father agreed to the protectorate of his free will. True/false? and again- what is the evidence for this?

3. Back to Poland- Polish citizens were mistreated, sent to concentration camps en mass and "murdered" prior to Sep 1 39. I know the answer is yes- but (a) what kind of figures were sent to Polish camps and (b) what kind of real figures were murdered prior to Sep 1? And what is the evidence?

^These are lynch pins the liar would use and I haven't been able to source them.

[Mortimer]

With regards to number 2 there is a thread on the Hacha-Hitler meeting so this should be able to answer your question -

Hacha in Berlin, March 1939
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=8342

[Elroy]

With regards to number 2 there is a thread on the Hacha-Hitler meeting so this should be able to answer your question -
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=8342

Thankyou Mortimer. I am aware that the source for Hacha's daughter's treatment and comments regarding her father is David Hoggan's "The Forced War"- However much truth might be in that, the statement she allegedly made under allied interrogation is not referenced.

In the pdf edition of this book I've accessed- Hoggan does not provide any documents or reference to anything. Which in this line of work (revisionism) is essential.

Only the liars can afford to make baseless statements and call them truth, we cannot.

Same goes for the Lufthansa planes being shot down by Polish guns prior to Sep 1. Never seen an original source.

I am a total disbeliever in the myth of German culpability or the Holocaust to be sure- but accuracy and truthfulness and evidence are paramount to that end in my opinion.

[Elroy]

With regards to number 2 there is a thread on the Hacha-Hitler meeting so this should be able to answer your question -
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=8342

Honestly Mortimer, these are some of the pressing things we need to clean up- this is what true history is based upon. We need to get it right.

I think deliberate shooting at lufthansa flights would drive the Polish atrocities home nicely.

I think Hacha's daughter's statement would drive the point about the Pritectorate home nicely.

But these statements are non-essential bonusses, like a follow up left hook after a KO 1,2. But did they happen in fact?

We need "Evidence" of even just an acceptable kind, or we should not use it without qualification. Just my opinion.

From what I can see- Hoggan didn't reference it. And Wallendy didn't include it in his book (which was referenced professionally). Unless I am mistaken?

[Mortimer]

With regards to number 2 there is a thread on the Hacha-Hitler meeting so this should be able to answer your question -
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=8342

Honestly Mortimer, these are some of the pressing things we need to clean up- this is what true history is based upon. We need to get it right.

I think deliberate shooting at lufthansa flights would drive the Polish atrocities home nicely.

I think Hacha's daughter's statement would drive the point about the Pritectorate home nicely.

But these statements are non-essential bonusses, like a follow up left hook after a KO 1,2. But did they happen in fact?

We need "Evidence" of even just an acceptable kind, or we should not use it without qualification. Just my opinion.

From what I can see- Hoggan didn't reference it. And Wallendy didn't include it in his book (which was referenced professionally). Unless I am mistaken?

There are 2 different versions of the book by Hoggan. The German language one is called Der Erzwungene Krieg and according to people who posted in this thread it is different than the English language version and I get the impression it contains proper footnotes and references -
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7265
If anyone has a copy can they please confirm this ?

[Elroy]

There are 2 different versions of the book by Hoggan. The German language one is called Der Erzwungene Krieg and according to people who posted in this thread it is different than the English language version and I get the impression it contains proper footnotes and references -
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7265
If anyone has a copy can they please confirm this ?

Ah, now that's something. So I cannot speak German but for important points like I outllined to be references in the German version (if they indeed are) they would likely reference to German language sources.

That would explain why such a reference would not be given in an English translation maybe, but it would not explain why it would not be stated the source of the information in some way- otherwise that's how fiction works are written.

For instance, where is this "interrogation statement" from allied interrogators of Hacha's daughter? Where is the official German shock headlines regarding Lufthansa passenger liners being shot at by Polish guns?

^Such information would be easily presented and readily presented if it existed which points to these things being embellishments of the truth (lies).

The thing about Udo Wallendy's book is that it sticks to verifiable fact, and hence academically sound.

Again I do not doubt that Hoggan's Forced War is mostly fact, but I can't believe in some key details unless verified elsewhere.

At the minimum I would expect stuff like this to be referenced to Nazi sources- which may or may not be true and deserves mentioning with the qualifier "The German's alleged" etc to distinguish it from undeniable fact such as Wallendy provides us.

If any Revisionist can shed any light onto the topics I've outlined like Mortimer has also asked regarding Forced War- I would like to know about it and think every revisionist should know.

[Mortimer]

A small article appeared in the California newspaper The Madera Tribune on 24 August 1939 which mentions the Poles shooting at Lufthansa planes - http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=MT19390824.2.7
All it took was a Google search.

[Text below added by Moderator, 9/30/17]

POLE GUNS FIRE ON DANZIG PLANE German Planes Detour to Avoid Attack

DANZIG, Aug. 24. —Early morning bathers reported today that Polish guns fired 10 shots at a Danzig sports airplane and that shell fragments fell in the streets of Zoppot, in free city territory. The German Lufthansa company abandoned direct airplane service, across the Pomorze area of Poland, separating Germany proper from East Prussia and Danzig. Planes were detourned over the Baltic as the result of today’s and yesterday’s alleged Polish firing on German planes.

[Moderator]

Elroy,
FYI, see:

Polish Atrocities against Germans before 1. September 1939
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7525

Please start using our search function. Thanks.
M1

[Elroy]

Elroy,
FYI, see:

Polish Atrocities against Germans before 1. September 1939
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7525

Please start using our search function. Thanks.
M1

Hello M1. Yes I have used the search function both here on the forum and on the codoh.com main site.

I'm not sure how to pin point anything valid if it exists, but it certainly seems if it did exist this would be the place to find it.

A search for "lufthansa" returns nothing useful on either side of the site (article or forum), a search for polish atrocities returns this thread that you have linked here for me.

I had already reviewed this thread and anything else I could find.

It's not a long thread, only a single page, basically one guy arguing there was no atrocities and a couple revisionists retaliating but with little substance to either side- and no light shed on pre 1939 refugee flooding, minority German concentration camp internments en mass, liquidations, torments or killings etc.

I am aware there IS a book called "Documented Polish Atrocities". I do not read German. I am aware there is an English translation though. Neither book I have ever had any access to and would not know where to start and I can't seem to be able to find anything about this book here either. Which could be due to the fact I just don't know how to or what I am looking for.

As you can see in the thread it's talked about but not linked or referenced.

I think for a variety of reasons that Polish terrorism against the German's is undeniable. Hitler wrote a letter to Daladier of utmost emotion about it in the final weeks among countless other circumstantial proofs that defy all logic of it being a "Farce".

So German sources would be good enough, and are all that can be expected of course (it's obvious the Poles and other allies would not be documenting their own atrocities unless we can find orders to say fire on a lufthansa German aircraft for example.

Was this episode ultimately sourced back to the Documented Polish Atrocities book?

I would like to see this book basically.

Sorry if this sounds confused, that's because it is- these are the largest lynch pins of the promoters of the "they started the war" lie and the "take over the world" lie and a search always turns up rather fruitless in this regard.

[Elroy]

http://www.tomatobubble.com/id723.html

^As an aside here is Hitler's letter to Daldier with accompanying analysis.

Not the stuff that false propaganda is made of.

My concerns is with important details unproven or unsatisfactorily sourced which the liars pick on.

[Lamprecht]

A small article appeared in the California newspaper The Madera Tribune on 24 August 1939 which mentions the Poles shooting at Lufthansa planes - http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=MT19390824.2.7
All it took was a Google search.

[Text below added by Moderator, 9/30/17]

POLE GUNS FIRE ON DANZIG PLANE German Planes Detour to Avoid Attack

DANZIG, Aug. 24. —Early morning bathers reported today that Polish guns fired 10 shots at a Danzig sports airplane and that shell fragments fell in the streets of Zoppot, in free city territory. The German Lufthansa company abandoned direct airplane service, across the Pomorze area of Poland, separating Germany proper from East Prussia and Danzig. Planes were detourned over the Baltic as the result of today’s and yesterday’s alleged Polish firing on German planes.

There is more.



24 August 1939:

No. 436
Record of an official of the Political Department of
the Federal Foreign Office
Berlin, 24th August 1939

Except the one already reported yesterday 221 Bombardment of the Lufthansa aircraft D-APUP in front of Hela received two more reports from the Lufthansa aircraft about bombardment of aircraft:

1. The aircraft D-APUP, type Savoia, pilot Böhner, was shot at by fire on the flight from Gdansk to Berlin at 1:15 pm from Hela and also by a Polish cruiser 40 km from the coast. The distance of the aircraft from the Hela peninsula was 15 to 20 km, the altitude 1,500 m. Explosive clouds of 8 shots were observed at a greater distance from the machine.

2. The aircraft D-AMYO, type Ju 86, aircraft pilot Neumann, was shot at from the Hela Peninsula on the flight from Gdansk to Berlin at 16 o'clock. Distance from the coast 5 to 6 nautical miles, altitude 1,200 m. The shots were too short and too deep.

Schultz-Sponholz

From: https://books.google.com/books?id=PEcTA ... &q&f=false
also: https://archive.is/rEy0c#selection-36.272-4316.0




Some Polish site, translated: https://archive.is/YqhdG#selection-3636.0-3636.5

The intensified flights of planes in the area of ​​Hel resulted in firing their cannon with ammunition several times - for example, at the beginning of July, the 23th [1939] battery damaged a German communication plane passing over the forbidden area. Also Polish ships several times opened a warning fire to German aircraft.

[Otium]

24 August 1939:

No. 436
Record of an official of the Political Department of
the Federal Foreign Office
Berlin, 24th August 1939

Except the one already reported yesterday 221 Bombardment of the Lufthansa aircraft D-APUP in front of Hela received two more reports from the Lufthansa aircraft about bombardment of aircraft:

1. The aircraft D-APUP, type Savoia, pilot Böhner, was shot at by fire on the flight from Gdansk to Berlin at 1:15 pm from Hela and also by a Polish cruiser 40 km from the coast. The distance of the aircraft from the Hela peninsula was 15 to 20 km, the altitude 1,500 m. Explosive clouds of 8 shots were observed at a greater distance from the machine.

2. The aircraft D-AMYO, type Ju 86, aircraft pilot Neumann, was shot at from the Hela Peninsula on the flight from Gdansk to Berlin at 16 o'clock. Distance from the coast 5 to 6 nautical miles, altitude 1,200 m. The shots were too short and too deep.

Schultz-Sponholz

From: https://books.google.com/books?id=PEcTA ... &q&f=false
also: https://archive.is/rEy0c#selection-36.272-4316.0

There's another document, a telegram by Helmut Bergmann published after the war from files of the German Foreign office requesting someone from the German embassy in Poland send protest to the Polish government against these actions which took place. the Telegram also records two other instances a day later on August 25 of planes being shot at by Polish ships:

Berijn, August 27, 1989 -5:30 p.m.
e.o. Pol. I Lu. 2637.

On August 24, at 1:15 p.m., a civil air liner, D-ABHF of the Lufthansa, flying some 15 to 20 kilometres distant from the Hela coast, at a height of 1500 metres, was fired on by Polish anti-aircraft batteries and by a Polish ship lying 40 kilometres off the shore; bursts of eight rounds were observed from the plane.

On August 25, at 12:47 p.m., a civil air liner, D-AHIH of the Lufthansa, was fired on by Polish anti-aircraft batteries when 20 kilometres from Heisternest. The shots passed so close that the bursts were clearly heard in the plane. Amongst the passengers was State Secretary Stuckart.

On August 25, at 2:18 p.m. and 3:25 p.m., a naval seaplane from Pillau was fired on above Brosen, a good distance away from the coast, the second time with six rounds. The shots were fired either from Hela or from Polish ships.

You are requested to protest most strongly to the Polish Government about the totally unwarranted firing in all these instances. Report by telegram.

BERGMANN

Documents on German Foreign Policy 1918-1945, D Series (1937-1945), Volume VII: The Last Days of Peace August 9-September 3, 1939, Doc. 355, pp. 359-360.