War-time German documents & writings mentioning the "Final Solution"

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Re: War-time German documents & writings mentioning the "Final Solution"

Postby Hektor » 3 years 8 months ago (Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:12 pm)

Lamprecht wrote:
borjastick wrote:Didn't some of the jewish leaders in Germany pre-war describe the issue of jews in the country thus - 'the jewish problem for which we need a final solution'. They meant of course the exit to Palestine of all those jews who could afford to travel and with the proviso they would be of any use to the fledgling state of israel.

Talk of a "solution to the Jewish question" was happening long before Hitler ever came to power. Famous Zionist Jew Theodor Herzl described Zionism as the "solution of the Jewish question."

See: Memo of Nov. 22, 1899. R. Patai, ed., The Complete Diaries of Theodor Herzl (New York: 1960), Vol. 3, p. 888.
also: T. Herzl, "Der Kongress," Welt, June 4, 1897. Reprinted in: Theodor Herzls zionistische Schriften (Leon Kellner, ed.), erster Teil, Berlin: Jüdischer Verlag, 1920, p. 190 (and p. 139).
and: Theodor Herzl, A Solution To The Jewish Question, January 17 1896. https://archive.org/details/HerzlSolutionJewishQuestion

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was about to post the same response, you were quicker:
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Re: War-time German documents & writings mentioning the "Final Solution"

Postby Lamprecht » 3 years 7 months ago (Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:01 pm)

On May 23, 1942, Karol Sidor, Representative of the Republic of Slovakia at the Holy See, handed a note to Secretary of State Luigi Maglione concerning the solution of the Jewish question. It was dated May 8th of the same year and was the answer to a letter of November 12, 1941, prepared by the Holy See, in which information on this subject was requested. After an explanation of the reasons for the delayed answer, the note says:
"But in this period of time [November 1941 to January 1942] there was a silence about the solution of the Jewish question. Long negotiations dealing with the solution to the Jewish problem in Europe took place between the Slovakian and German governments, and the view was offered that the emigration of the Slovakian Jews represents only one component of a much larger overall program. In the near future, half a million Jews from [western and central] Europe will be sent to eastern Europe. Slovakia will be the first state whose Jewish inhabitants are taken by Germany. At the same time, the emigration of Jews from France (the occupied part), Holland, Belgium, the Protectorate, and Reich territory is supposed to follow. Hungary has also expressed its desire to send off 800,000 Jews, as the head of government, Dr. Kállay, said in his speech on April 20 of this year.

The Slovakian Jews are being accommodated at various locations in the area of Lublin, where they will definitely remain. The Aryan population will be evacuated from these territories, and an exclusively Jewish district with its own administration will arise in its place, where the Jews can live as a community and can secure their existence by their own labor. The families will stay together."
SOURCE: Acts and documents of the Holy See relating to the Second World War. January 1941-December 1942, Vol. 8, page 542.
It appears under the heading "383. Le ministre de Slovaquie Sidorau cardinal Maglione" (The text is in Italian)
PDF: http://web.archive.org/web/201910242255 ... lume-8.pdf
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
— Herbert Spencer


NOTE: I am taking a leave of absence from revisionism to focus on other things. At this point, the ball is in their court to show the alleged massive pits full of human remains at the so-called "extermination camps." After 8 decades they still refuse to do this. I wonder why...

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Re: War-time German documents & writings mentioning the "Final Solution"

Postby Lamprecht » 3 years 5 months ago (Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:22 pm)

A thread for this document:
Martin Bormann 11 July 1943 memo - Hitler prohibits publicly discussing "future overall solution" to Jewish Question
viewtopic.php?t=12928
Lamprecht wrote:ImageImage
English:
Re: Treatment of the Jewish Question
-----
On Instructions from the Fuehrer I make known the following:

Where the Jewish Question is brought up in public, there may be no discussion of a future overall solution.

It may, however, be mentioned that the Jews are taken in groups for appropriate labor purposes.

Signed, M, Bormann
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
— Herbert Spencer


NOTE: I am taking a leave of absence from revisionism to focus on other things. At this point, the ball is in their court to show the alleged massive pits full of human remains at the so-called "extermination camps." After 8 decades they still refuse to do this. I wonder why...

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Re: War-time German documents & writings mentioning the "Final Solution"

Postby Callahan » 3 years 5 months ago (Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:52 pm)

Lamprecht wrote:Russian Jewish Holocaust historian Léon Poliakov published the "Harvest of Hate: The Nazi Program for the Destruction of the Jews of Europe" in 1955, and it features the following quote from a Goebbels speech, 16 months after the Nazis supposedly instigated the Final Solution of the Jewish Question.

Goebbels, May 1943 wrote: What will be the solution of the Jewish question? Whether a Jewish state will one day be created in some territory remains to be seen. But it is curious to note that the countries where public opinion is rising in favor of the Jews refuse to accept them from us. They call them pioneers of a new civilization, geniuses of philosophy and artistic creation, but when anybody wants them to accept these geniuses, they close their borders: "No, no. We don't want them!" It seems to me to be the only case in world history where people have refused to accept geniuses.


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I have also found this quote via Yad Vashem, here, where it claims this statement was made in 1939, rather than May 1943:

https://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Micr ... 205607.pdf

It is also available here, on page 10, but this time again cited as being part of a May 1943 speech:

https://epdf.pub/nazi-deutsch-nazi-germ ... reich.html

Therein includes a citation [91] which indicates this quote was taken from "Nuremberg Document, NG 1531"... I am having trouble finding this document online. We might be able to confirm the period when this statement was made if anyone is able to find it... always helps to have a more direct source for statements like these.

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Re: War-time German documents & writings mentioning the "Final Solution"

Postby Lamprecht » 3 years 5 months ago (Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:51 pm)

Callahan wrote:
Lamprecht wrote:Russian Jewish Holocaust historian Léon Poliakov published the "Harvest of Hate: The Nazi Program for the Destruction of the Jews of Europe" in 1955, and it features the following quote from a Goebbels speech, 16 months after the Nazis supposedly instigated the Final Solution of the Jewish Question.

Goebbels, May 1943 wrote: What will be the solution of the Jewish question? Whether a Jewish state will one day be created in some territory remains to be seen. But it is curious to note that the countries where public opinion is rising in favor of the Jews refuse to accept them from us. They call them pioneers of a new civilization, geniuses of philosophy and artistic creation, but when anybody wants them to accept these geniuses, they close their borders: "No, no. We don't want them!" It seems to me to be the only case in world history where people have refused to accept geniuses.


Image


I have also found this quote via Yad Vashem, here, where it claims this statement was made in 1939, rather than May 1943:

https://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Micr ... 205607.pdf

It is also available here, on page 10, but this time again cited as being part of a May 1943 speech:

https://epdf.pub/nazi-deutsch-nazi-germ ... reich.html

Therein includes a citation [91] which indicates this quote was taken from "Nuremberg Document, NG 1531"... I am having trouble finding this document online. We might be able to confirm the period when this statement was made if anyone is able to find it... always helps to have a more direct source for statements like these.


The Yad Vashem PDF says:
Internal Memorandum regarding the solution of the ‘’Jewish Question’’, quoting utterances made by Goebbels on this issue (not dated, apparently Berlin 1939)
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
— Herbert Spencer


NOTE: I am taking a leave of absence from revisionism to focus on other things. At this point, the ball is in their court to show the alleged massive pits full of human remains at the so-called "extermination camps." After 8 decades they still refuse to do this. I wonder why...

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Re: War-time German documents & writings mentioning the "Final Solution"

Postby Callahan » 3 years 5 months ago (Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:35 am)

The Yad Vashem PDF says:
Internal Memorandum regarding the solution of the ‘’Jewish Question’’, quoting utterances made by Goebbels on this issue (not dated, apparently Berlin 1939)


If not dated, any idea how the other sources came to "May 1943"?

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Re: War-time German documents & writings mentioning the "Final Solution"

Postby Lamprecht » 3 years 5 months ago (Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:19 am)

When I have a bit of time I will try to see what that footnote #80 from the screenshot I posted says. I wonder if it also cites the NG-1531 document, which I will look for as well.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
— Herbert Spencer


NOTE: I am taking a leave of absence from revisionism to focus on other things. At this point, the ball is in their court to show the alleged massive pits full of human remains at the so-called "extermination camps." After 8 decades they still refuse to do this. I wonder why...

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Re: War-time German documents & writings mentioning the "Final Solution"

Postby christianbethel » 3 years 5 months ago (Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:58 pm)

Where are you guys getting all this information?
'Aryan' does not mean 'white'. The entire concept of 'whiteness' is racist. Hitler never identified as 'white'. Hitler was a radical leftist anti-racist, and I can prove it. Contact me privately for quotes.

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Re: War-time German documents & writings mentioning the "Final Solution"

Postby Lamprecht » 3 years 5 months ago (Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:49 am)

christianbethel wrote:Where are you guys getting all this information?

You just have to read about or discuss the subject. Whenever I come across a reference to a document with "Final solution to the Jewish question" or something similar, I post it here.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
— Herbert Spencer


NOTE: I am taking a leave of absence from revisionism to focus on other things. At this point, the ball is in their court to show the alleged massive pits full of human remains at the so-called "extermination camps." After 8 decades they still refuse to do this. I wonder why...

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Re: War-time German documents & writings mentioning the "Final Solution"

Postby christianbethel » 3 years 4 months ago (Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:01 pm)

Well, your research is nothing short of fantastic. Thanks a lot, and keep up the good work!

Also, please consider joining my Discord. The link is in my signature.
'Aryan' does not mean 'white'. The entire concept of 'whiteness' is racist. Hitler never identified as 'white'. Hitler was a radical leftist anti-racist, and I can prove it. Contact me privately for quotes.

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Re: War-time German documents & writings mentioning the "Final Solution"

Postby Otium » 3 years 3 months ago (Sat Feb 22, 2020 6:14 am)

Lamprecht wrote:When I have a bit of time I will try to see what that footnote #80 from the screenshot I posted says. I wonder if it also cites the NG-1531 document, which I will look for as well.




The quote in question:

9 Indeed, Jews were hardly seen as human. They were “the ultimate subhuman—sinister, superstitious, backward, irrational, medieval, stubborn,
and filthy.”80


Footnote 80 comes from "Sterling, Judenhass, 67-68"

Eleonore-Sterling+Judenhaß-Die-Anfänge-des-politischen-Antisemitismus-in-Deutschland-1815-1850.jpg


The comment made accompanying this citation seems like it'll be a case of made up nonsense. I can think of no circumstance where a National Socialist used the word Subhuman in a racial manner.

Seeing as this book is from the 1960s using evidence "historians" took for granted at that time without fierce pushback and even less documentary evidence than they have access today thanks to revisionists, it's likely the quotation is just bunk.

The book is in German (obviously) so its availability online isn't promising.

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Re: War-time German documents & writings mentioning the "Final Solution"

Postby Archie » 2 years 4 months ago (Sat Jan 30, 2021 2:01 pm)

Lamprecht wrote:
Callahan wrote:
Lamprecht wrote:Russian Jewish Holocaust historian Léon Poliakov published the "Harvest of Hate: The Nazi Program for the Destruction of the Jews of Europe" in 1955, and it features the following quote from a Goebbels speech, 16 months after the Nazis supposedly instigated the Final Solution of the Jewish Question.



Image


I have also found this quote via Yad Vashem, here, where it claims this statement was made in 1939, rather than May 1943:

https://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Micr ... 205607.pdf

It is also available here, on page 10, but this time again cited as being part of a May 1943 speech:

https://epdf.pub/nazi-deutsch-nazi-germ ... reich.html

Therein includes a citation [91] which indicates this quote was taken from "Nuremberg Document, NG 1531"... I am having trouble finding this document online. We might be able to confirm the period when this statement was made if anyone is able to find it... always helps to have a more direct source for statements like these.


The Yad Vashem PDF says:
Internal Memorandum regarding the solution of the ‘’Jewish Question’’, quoting utterances made by Goebbels on this issue (not dated, apparently Berlin 1939)


I think Yad Vashem is probably correct here. The memo must have been prepared in 1943 and was later submitted to the NG document series, but the quoted material within the memo is probably earlier, and their suggestion of 1939 seems like a good one. Poliakov seems to have assumed the quote was from the same time as the memo.

Consider the recent thread on the Evian Conference in 1938.
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13772

The Goebbels quote fits such a context pretty well. And Hitler made somewhat similar statements around that same time. The following is from Hitler's January 30, 1939 Reichstag speech (the one with his famous "prophecy").

I would like to say the following on the Jewish question: it is truly a shaming display when we see today the entire democratic world filled with tears of pity at the plight of the poor, tortured Jewish people, while remaining hardhearted and obstinate in view of what is therefore its obvious duty: to help. All the arguments with which they seek to justify their non-intervention lend only further support to the stance of Germans and Italians in this matter.

For this is what they say: “We”—that is the democracies—“cannot possibly admit the Jews!” And this those world powers claim who can boast no more than ten persons per square kilometer while we must accommodate and feed 135 persons per square kilometer.

Then follow assurances: “We cannot take them unless they receive a certain monetary contribution from Germany to facilitate immigration.” Small matter that Germany has already been good enough to provide for these elements for centuries, who possessed little more than infectious political and sanitary diseases. What this people possesses today, it obtained at the cost of the not-so-cunning German Volk by means of the most base manipulations.

Do not reproach me on the grounds of your humanitarian concerns. The German Volk does not wish to be governed by another people; it does not wish others to determine its affairs in its place. France to the French; England to the English; America to the Americans, and Germany to the Germans! We are determined to undercut the efforts of a certain foreign people to nest here; a people whose members knew how to capture all leading positions. We will banish this people. We are willing to educate our own Volk to assume these leadership functions. We have hundreds of thousands of the most intelligent children of peasants and workers. We will have them educated, and we are already educating them. We are hoping that one day we can place them in all leading positions within the state along with others from our educated classes.

No longer shall these be occupied by members of a people alien to us.

Above all, as the literal meaning of the term already indicates, German culture is exclusively German; it is not Jewish. Hence we shall place the administration and the care for our culture in the hands of our Volk. Should the rest of the world be outraged and protest hypocritically against Germany’s barbarous expulsion of such an extraordinary, culturally valuable, irreplaceable element, then we can only be astonished at the consequences such a stance would imply.

I believe the earlier this problem is resolved, the better. For Europe cannot find peace before it has dealt properly with the Jewish question.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_Address_to_the_Reichstag_(30_January_1939)

Hitler employs the same sarcasm as Goebbels about how wonderful the Jews supposedly are yet nobody wants them.

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Re: War-time German documents & writings mentioning the "Final Solution"

Postby Archie » 2 years 3 months ago (Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:34 pm)

Lamprecht wrote:Frederick Cable Oechesner was an American journalist that reported from Germany between 1929-42, chronicling the rise of National Socialism. He headed the Berlin bureau of what was then the United Press, overseeing correspondents including Richard Helms, who would serve as director of the C.I.A. from 1965 to 1973.

He wrote in June 9, 1942 in The San Bernardino Daily Sun:
Last August when the Russian war had been going on two months and the Pacific outbreak was four months away. Hitler's plan was out lined to me by the best-informed Nazis and I made the following notes:
The area between the Urals, where Japanese influence ended, and a line extending from Leningrad to Moscow to the lower Volga, to be a buffer Jew state where Jews now confined in Poland would be moved to await a permanent solution of the Jewish question.

Image


Oechsner and several American journalists were taken into custody once Germany and the USA went to war. They were released in a prisoner exchange sometime in 1942. There was a book published in November of 1942 called This is the Enemy that was primarily written by Oechsner with contributions from four others. It's rather biased as is obvious from the title (not to mention Oechsner went on to work for the OSS). But it does have a few worthwhile bits, including a part where he says pretty much the same thing as he does in the newspaper clipping.

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.527910

From page 353 (chapter 24).

And Russia? There is to be a “distribution of spheres of influence” along a line Leningrad-Moscow-Volga. Everything on the European side of this line shall be a German sphere of influence. In the territory between this line and the Urals a temporary Jewish state is planned until a permanent solution of Jewish settlement can be worked out. Everything that lies on the other side of the Urals, according to Hitler's plan, is to become a Japanese sphere of influence. The Ukraine is to receive, under German supervision, a government of nationalist Ukrainians, not including any persons who had Czarist affiliations, or even their descendants, but only Ukrainians "who have a full conception of National Socialist principles.”

A permanent settlement of the European Jewish problem is meanwhile being worked on. Since before the war, in fact, a special committee has existed, headed by Heinrich Himmler and Martin Bormann, for study of this question. All of the Gauleiters are members of this committee, and the police chiefs of all large German cities are attached as special Referenten, or consultants. The Nazi plan is to transfer all European Jews to the East, where a permanent Jewish state will be set up. Emphasis will be placed on physical labour, and earnings will not be allowed to be above forty marks a week per person, though for each child under age an extra four marks per week will be permitted. Jews will not be allowed to save and accumulate money. All finished goods, such as shoes, clothing, linen, or the raw materials for making them, will have to be bought in "Great Germany.” There will be no rabbis in the orthodox sense; once weekly a religious leader may address congregations, but this man must work at physical labour like all the others. Jews will not be allowed to own automobiles, bicycles, paddle-boats and such. Police duties are to be in the hands of Jews. Marriage with non-Jews is prohibited; Jewish abortions are not to be punishable.


The interesting thing about this is that it's so geographically precise unlike other more vague statements about "the East."

Chapter 11 is also of some interest as it describes the familiar story of anti-Jewish policies and deportations yet at the same time it does not suggest the extermination of six million people. On page 130, it refers to massacres in Eastern Europe but the numbers are well below the usual Holocaust numbers.

Years before the Nazis came to power Hitler and Streicher had sworn their revenge on the Jews, and pitilessly and systematically this promised vengeance is being exacted today. At least 200,000 Jews—probably the full number never will be known— in occupied Russia, the Baltic States and Poland were slaughtered by Nazi execution squads between the outbreak of war and spring, 1942. Millions more throughout German-controlled Europe have been and still are being driven from their homes and businesses into ghettos.

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Re: War-time German documents & writings mentioning the "Final Solution"

Postby Archie » 2 years 2 months ago (Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:09 pm)

Lamprecht wrote:From Document No. NG-2586 (E) or PS-710. "Letter from Hermann Goering to Reinhard Heydrich, Berlin, July 31, 1941"
"As supplement to the task that was entrusted to you in the decree dated January 24, 1939, namely to solve the Jewish question by emigration and evacuation in a way, which is the most favorable in connection with the conditions prevailing at the time, I herewith commission you to carry out all preparations with regard to organizational, factual, and financial viewpoints for a total solution of the Jewish question in those territories in Europe under German influence.

If the competency of other central organizations is touched in this connection, these organizations are to participate.

I further commission you to submit to me as soon as possible a draft showing the organizational, factual, and financial measures already taken for the execution of the intended final solution of the Jewish question."

ImageImageImage
German version: http://archive.is/F9oSF or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Carta_G%C3%B6ring.JPG


The document says very explicitly that as of January 1939 the Jewish question was to be solved by emigration and evacuation. Then in July 1941, the month after Operation Barbarossa, Goering is giving Heydrich a "supplement" to the earlier order in light of new territorial developments. And Heydrich is to submit a plan for the intended final solution to the Jewish question. But the systematic genocide isn't said to have evolved until 1942. The problem for them here is that Goering is using the phrase "too early" for it to mean what they want it to mean.

This doc is frequently quoted in Holocaust literature. Often the part about "emigration and evacuation" is left out. Among orthodox historians, the approach here will depend on whether it's read from an intentionalist or functionalist point of view. Hilberg says that its euphemistic and marks a turning point toward genocide (recall that he originally claimed Hitler orders in the summer of 1941). But others have said that the genocidal extermination evolved later, hence they admit that here the phrase "final solution to the Jewish question" does not and cannot mean what they've always said it meant. And if it's argued that the meaning of the phrase changed over time then the phrase itself can't be used as evidence of anything.

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Re: War-time German documents & writings mentioning the "Final Solution"

Postby Hektor » 2 years 2 months ago (Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:47 pm)

Archie wrote:The document says very explicitly that as of January 1939 the Jewish question was to be solved by emigration and evacuation. Then in July 1941, the month after Operation Barbarossa, Goering is giving Heydrich a "supplement" to the earlier order in light of new territorial developments. And Heydrich is to submit a plan for the intended final solution to the Jewish question. But the systematic genocide isn't said to have evolved until 1942. The problem for them here is that Goering is using the phrase "too early" for it to mean what they want it to mean.
Archie wrote:Indeed odd, but expect them to have some rescue device to wind themselves out of the fact that documents contradict their claims. E.g. "It changed its meaning over time".


This doc is frequently quoted in Holocaust literature. Often the part about "emigration and evacuation" is left out. Among orthodox historians, the approach here will depend on whether it's read from an intentionalist or functionalist point of view. Hilberg says that its euphemistic and marks a turning point toward genocide (recall that he originally claimed Hitler orders in the summer of 1941). But others have said that the genocidal extermination evolved later, hence they admit that here the phrase "final solution to the Jewish question" does not and cannot mean what they've always said it meant. And if it's argued that the meaning of the phrase changed over time then the phrase itself can't be used as evidence of anything.

There we go, if the Nuremberg Accused were aware of any "physical annihilation in or outside the concentration camps, they'd justified it or would indeed have used the order-following excuse - None of them did. Hence the very word "Nuremberg excuse" that is frequently used for this, is actually a lie as well. Instead they responded like deer in the spotlight... Even fell for the propaganda videos.

Both the intentionalist and functionalist approaches to "the Holocaust" are exercises in question begging. They simply suppose "it happened", we just have to explain to folks how (as to make the story more believable to audience that may still be or is becoming sceptical of the claims).


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