Mass Grave Found near Soldau (?)

[hermod]

Butterfangers

Others here do and they make assertions as though they know with certainty these are not human remains.

Then let's see the proof that these are human remains.

Even with a proof that these are human remains, can we dismiss the possibility that these are human remains planted there afterwards for deceptive purposes?

Scattering some human ashes somewhere is not an insurmountable task after all...

[Butterfangers]

No it's not. Prove that that the "human remains" allegations have been substantiated.

I have no interest in attempting to prove this, nor did I ever claim that I did. My point is, your argument that, "the IPN published their investigation but unless YOU prove their investigation isn't lying, you're wrong"... would be laughed and ridiculed out of any public forum, even among most people who are somewhat open minded to Revisionist arguments. It's weak and, therefore, useless. YOU (and I) have the burden of proof to prove fraudulence, unfortunately, since the perceived authority of the IPN will otherwise stand. It shouldn't be that way once people understand the overall fraudulent nature of the Holocaust, but Revisionists have always had to do double work, unfortunately, until that point. It is what it is.

Feel free to obsess with your assertion that these ashes and remains (of whatever) have not been conclusively, irrefutably shown to be human remains here on this forum thread. I don't care to visit Poland to investigate this point further nor, obviously, do you.

You accept something as true that only "may" be true? Let's see the proof that it's actually true.

Again, the organization claiming to have proof is the IPN. Your issue is with them, not me. It would not surprise me either way whether or not they can produce proof to satisfy your expectations (I'm not sure what exactly you'd qualify as sufficient, anyway). I'm just saying I don't have much interest in whether the remains are real. I don't think that's the key issue, here.

Then let's see the proof that these are human remains.

"Nuh-uh! You didn't prove it!" Just like I do not bother to prove we landed on the moon, that viruses actually exist, etc., even though I believe these may be true (and probably are). I don't care to. It isn't important to me to prove any of these things to anyone, least of all you as you make these demands like a stamping child.

Who is "them / they"? It needs to be proven that this alleged mass grave actually contains human remains before you can make assertions about "them / they" being buried.

False. I can keep repeating that I don't care whether the remains are real and it is perfectly reasonable for me to entertain the idea that they may be (until / unless you conclusively prove they are not) and for me to formulate an argument with that condition in mind.

How about just a couple ounces?

What can you prove Butterfangers?

See above. You're done. Just stop.

[Hektor]

....
Even with a proof that these are human remains, can we dismiss the possibility that these are human remains planted there afterwards for deceptive purposes?

Scattering some human ashes somewhere is not an insurmountable task after all...

The "Zentrum fuer Politische Schoenheit" (= Centre for political beauty) supposedly presented some "Ashes of Holocaust Victims" at the Reichstag

https://www.spiegel.de/kultur/gesellsch ... 99418.html

How they knew that had 'ashes of Holocaust Victims' remains their secret of course.
They claim they got the ashes here:

https://politicalbeauty.de/sucht-nach-uns.html
Still, even if true, how would they know they were dealing with 'ashes of Holocaust' victims?
It's an extreme example of pointing to something claiming to be proof for a paradigmatic hypothesis.

This was part of a campaign against a moderately conservative party in Germany (The AfD). It doesn't prove anything about this party... But a lot about how insane its opponents are.

[Iris]

Butterfangers

I have no interest in attempting to prove this

That's not surprising, since you have already admited that you "cannot prove even 0.00001 tons were discovered in this alleged mass grave."

Butterfangers

YOU (and I) have the burden of proof

Wrong Butterfangers. The burden of proof falls on those who've made these claims or those who "have no problem accepting that these may be human remains" like you do.

Butterfangers

Feel free to obsess with your assertion that these ashes and remains (of whatever) have not been conclusively, irrefutably shown to be human remains here on this forum thread.

The obsession is your Butterfangers. All I'm doing is asking if s the allegations have been proven, which you have admitted they have not.

Butterfangers

I don't care to visit Poland to investigate this point further nor, obviously, do you.

I don't need to visit Poland to ask to see the proof of these unsubstantiated allegations.

Butterfangers

I'm just saying I don't have much interest in whether the remains are real.

Like you "have no problem accepting that these may be human remains" even though you admit that you "cannot prove even 0.00001 tons were discovered in this alleged mass grave." So your lack of "interest in whether the remains are real" or not does not surprise me.

Butterfangers

I can keep repeating that I don't care whether the remains are real and it is perfectly reasonable for me to entertain the idea that they may be

I'm sure you will Butterfangers, since you seem obsessed with the idea of accepting unsubstantiated allegations as truth.

Butterfangers

You're done. Just stop.

Stop asking to see the proof of unsubstantiated holohoax allegations on a forum that is skeptical of unsubstantiated holocaust allegations?

I think not Butterfangers.

[Zolton]

This site:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-11013991/Ashes-8-000-victims-Soldua-concentration-camp-Poland-mass-graves.html

Claims that 19 tons of human ashes were discovered in 2 mass graves at Soldau.


Mongol:

I think there's a spot where there was no ash visible at an earlier stage of the excavation but where later they mysteriously found ash...

It looks like Greg Gerdes has some doubts about this "investigation" as well, as he has added Soldau to his list of mass grave challenges and rewards.

http://www.thisisaboutscience.com/

But he is only referencing 17.5 tons of "burnt remains" in one alleged mass grave.

[Mongol]

I sent this message to a Polish user on another forum:

> Sorry, but what does the part in the middle of this sentence mean:
> > W kwietniu 1944 r. niedaleko Działdowa, w położonej wiosce Białuty ówczesny radca kryminalny SS Sturmbannfűhrer i kierownik wydziału tajnej policji krajowej (Gestapo) Wydział Zamiejscowy w Olsztynie na rozkaz inspektora Policji Bezpieczeństwa i Służby Specjalnej w Królewcu polecił swoim podwładnym, by w jego obecności pojedynczo zastrzelili przez strzał w kark 15 więźniów i zwłoki ich spalili, a zatrudnionych przy ekshumacji i paleniu zwłok ponad tysiąc osób złożonych w kilku masowych grobach w lesie bałuckim (Aktion 1005) których jako już nieżyjących świadków nacjonalistycznej masowej likwidacji należało usunąć.
> And also the beginning of this sentence:
> > Zatrudnionych przy ekshumacji i paleniu zwłok, ponad tysiąc osób złożonych w kilku masowych grobach w lesie bałuckim (Akcja odkopów „Specjalna Komisja 1005"), jako już nieżyjących świadków nacjonalistycznej masowej likwidacji należało usunąć.
> Do they mean something like that "over a thousand people who were employed in the exhumation and burning of the bodies were laid in several mass graves"? Or do they mean that "the people who were employed in the exhumation and burning of the bodies, along with over a thousand other people, were laid in several mass graves"?
> The source is these articles: https://gdansk.ipn.gov.pl/pl2/aktualnosci/167903,Komunikat-ws-odkrycia-niemieckiej-zbrodni-w-Dzialdowie-Gdansk-13-lipca-2022.html, https://gdansk.ipn.gov.pl/pl2/aktualnosci/80334,Odnaleziono-grob-cialopalny-Bialuty-2631-pazdziernika-2019.html.

He replied:

> It is written in bad Polish IMO, someone who wrote this is not a native Polish speaker maybe?
> But I think it means: "over a thousand people who were employed in the exhumation and burning of the bodies were laid in several mass graves".
> So it means that they executed prisoners, as well as workers employed in digging the graves.

The first Polish sentence I quoted above was machine-translated as: "In April 1944, near Działdowo, in the village of Białuty, the then criminal counselor of the SS Sturmbannfűhrer and the head of the secret national police department (Gestapo), the Olsztyn Branch, on the order of the inspector of the Security Police and Special Service in Königsberg, ordered his subordinates to shoot individually in his presence by shooting 15 prisoners in the necks and burning their bodies, over a thousand people employed in the exhumation and burning of the bodies were buried in several mass graves in the Baluca forest (Aktion 1005) who had to be removed as the dead witnesses of the nationalist mass liquidation." And the second sentence I quoted was machine-translated as: "More than a thousand people who were employed in the exhumation and burning of the corpses, were buried in several mass graves in the Baluca forest (Excavation Action "Special Commission 1005"), as the dead witnesses of the nationalist mass liquidation, had to be removed."

So it's another inconsistency with the testimony of Stefan Runo, who said that there were only 32 people from the camp who helped with burning the bodies (https://docplayer.pl/19054121-Oboz-koncentracyjny-soldau-przyczynek-do-monografii.html):

> In turn, Stefan Runo on September 16, 1947 testified: "In 1940 mass executions of Poles and Jews took place in the forest, 3 km away from Białuty. I heard the shots. The German forester Kirschhorn, who is currently in Westphalia, informed me that about 15,000 Poles and Jews had been liquidated. The corpses laid in two graves: Division I for Poles and Division V for Jews. In April 1944, Germans in black clothes with death's heads (there were three of them), and 17 field gendarmes, with the help of 32 people from the camp, burned the bodies in the grave, Division I and Division V. I was then employed in arranging wood on the piles on which the bodies were burned. 150 corpses were burned daily, and they were burned for a whole month. Then the ashes of all the murdered were buried in the grave of Division V [...] From the wife of a German, Kirschhorn, I learned that one of the Gestapo officers told her that in the graves of Division I and V there were about 15,000 bodies of Poles and Jews who allegedly did not want to to work or were involved in smuggling. I straighten it, the bodies were burned not by the gendarmes, but by prisoners supervised by gendarmes."[10]

And why would they have needed over a thousand prisoners to help with exhuming and burning the bodies anyway?

[fireofice]

Something to take into consideration:

Following the arrival of Red Army during the Soviet advance across Poland on 18 January 1945, the vacated Nazi camp in Działdowo was reinstated, this time by the NKVD secret police as a Soviet concentration camp for prisoners, both native German (the Reichsdeutsche) as well as Volksdeutsche from the regions of Pomerania, Warmia, Masuria and Mazowsze. The camp was liquidated at the end of 1945. The inmates were transported out of Poland in freight trains to camps in the Soviet Union.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soldau_concentration_camp

These could be the victims of the Soviets after they took over the camp. This wouldn't be the first time a supposed mass grave at a Nazi concentration camp would turn out to be by the Soviets.

https://codoh.com/library/document/8203/en/

[PrudentRegret]

These could be the victims of the Soviets after they took over the camp. This wouldn't be the first time a supposed mass grave at a Nazi concentration camp would turn out to be by the Soviets.

https://codoh.com/library/document/8203/en/

There was also a mainstream paper last year which concluded that the remains of the several people exhumed in Sobibor- which the mainstream had suggested were the remains of the Jewish prisoners of Treblinka transferred to dismantle Sobibor, were also killed by the NKVD:

You might be interested to know that apparently these six people were likely killed by the NKVD (using German weapons), genetic analysis indicates that the men were Jewish.

The second hypothesis explained the rush of the execution and burying the bodies by connecting it to the activities of The People’s Commissariat for Internal Affairs (abbreviated NKVD), which was the interior ministry of the Soviet Union. There was a report on NKVD activity after the war in the area of the former camp. Residents of the villages in the area surrounding the extermination camp witnessed shots. The archaeological analyses of the burial sites suggested that the graves were rather connected to the crimes committed by NKVD between 1945 and 1956.

The paper nonetheless still describes these deaths as "Holocaust" deaths & Sobibor as a camp of 'unparallelled secrecy'... which is odd because during the original 1942 war atrocity propaganda it was openly reported by the JTA as an "extermination camp".

[Rockartisten]

I'm gonna be a little bit lazy here and just throw some questions out there regarding this find.

What scientific reports are there from this site? Are they only in polish?

Has there been chemical tests of the remains corroborating it's 100% human remains, ashes? No wood?

Where are the closest crematoria from the site?

How many teeth have they found at the site?

How many bones, pelvises etc are there? Was everything supposed to have been grinded down? In that case, what would even be the purpose of that if you dump everything at the same spot anyway?

Anyway. Interesting find. I'm in a discussion with a friend of mine regarding this site. One of the few who at least show me respect regarding my new views on the matter of the Holocaust. Since he puts importance in this site, then I have to aswell, or he would not take me seriously anymore I would suspect.

[Butterfangers]

I'm gonna be a little bit lazy here and just throw some questions out there regarding this find.

What scientific reports are there from this site? Are they only in polish?

From what I can tell, just about everything is in Polish.

Has there been chemical tests of the remains corroborating it's 100% human remains, ashes? No wood?

I don't think this has been confirmed. They seem to imply it in some places but you know how that goes. It's unrealistic to suggest the alleged perpetrators kept bone ash versus wood ash neatly separated in distinct piles.

Where are the closest crematoria from the site?

Good question but I'd not be surprised to fine there were none nearby.

How many teeth have they found at the site?

How many bones, pelvises etc are there? Was everything supposed to have been grinded down? In that case, what would even be the purpose of that if you dump everything at the same spot anyway?

The grinding is generally represented to suggest a covering-up of crimes and it has always been a bizarre suggestion given the fact that the remains overwhelmingly stay verifiable as such, regardless. Even if we assume all of the ground-bones we discover were victims of 'Nazis', the grinding may be more of a best practice for cremation, since this is what level corpses are broken down to in a crematory, and disease elimination was priority #1.

Overall, I stand by my earlier analysis (below) but with the caveat that the suggestion in item #6 does not mean to indicate that we know that these are proven as fact to be any particular proportion of human remains (as opposed to other forms of ash or other material):

1. Soviets setup their "Extraordinary State Commission" in late 1942 to gather evidence (or propaganda) to prove (or frame) the guilt of Germany in mass murder.
2. As they advance west with the German retreat in 1943-4, Soviets reconquer territory that had been occupied by the Germans and are simultaneously producing reports which are, together, a mixture of very little truth and a whole lot of false or implausible narrative for propaganda purposes (see: Mattogno, 'Einsatzgruppen').
3. The effort of fabricating lies and half-truths continues. The largely-fraudulent narrative has become more developed, has the familiar elements of "Aktion 1005" (cremation, crushing bones, etc.).
4. In January, 1945, the Soviets take over the German camp at Soldau and install their own, which houses political prisoners including Germans, with numbers not precisely known. Similar Soviet camps had thousands of deaths.
5. Flash-forward to present day and the crushed remains of anywhere between 1,000 - 8,000 bodies (a number determined by whether wood ash, moisture, other materials were ruled out from the total-by-weight calculation) is allegedly or apparently found at the former Soldau camp(s).
6. The investigators assert with certainty this is proof of Germans hiding their crimes, do not acknowledge even a possibility that the Soviets planted evidence (tons of ash and crushed bone) against the Germans while potentially hiding their own crimes in this process. Nothing is known of what happened to those who perished at the hands of the Soviets in the Soldau camp.

Never underestimate the deception tactics, neither in scope nor in scale, of the Soviet government. They've proven time and again their methods and depravity know no bounds.

Anyway. Interesting find. I'm in a discussion with a friend of mine regarding this site. One of the few who at least show me respect regarding my new views on the matter of the Holocaust. Since he puts importance in this site, then I have to aswell, or he would not take me seriously anymore I would suspect.

It's something worth addressing head-on but as with any topic in history, has to be understood in the full scope and context of other relevant events and circumstances. Hypothetically, if your friend were to realize and admit tomorrow that the Auschwitz 'gas chambers' are 100% a laughable, invented hoax, he'd likely also be inclined to consider that other such hoaxes have been organized for the "Holocaust", thus giving way to interpretations like the above. Both sides of the debate would agree that none of this should be thought of as happening in a vacuum.

[Hektor]

...
Overall, I stand by my earlier analysis (below) but with the caveat that the suggestion in item #6 does not mean to indicate that we know that these are proven as fact to be any particular proportion of human remains (as opposed to other forms of ash or other material):

1. Soviets setup their "Extraordinary State Commission" in late 1942 to gather evidence (or propaganda) to prove (or frame) the guilt of Germany in mass murder.
2. As they advance west with the German retreat in 1943-4, Soviets reconquer territory that had been occupied by the Germans and are simultaneously producing reports which are, together, a mixture of very little truth and a whole lot of false or implausible narrative for propaganda purposes (see: Mattogno, 'Einsatzgruppen').
3. The effort of fabricating lies and half-truths continues. The largely-fraudulent narrative has become more developed, has the familiar elements of "Aktion 1005" (cremation, crushing bones, etc.).
4. In January, 1945, the Soviets take over the German camp at Soldau and install their own, which houses political prisoners including Germans, with numbers not precisely known. Similar Soviet camps had thousands of deaths.
5. Flash-forward to present day and the crushed remains of anywhere between 1,000 - 8,000 bodies (a number determined by whether wood ash, moisture, other materials were ruled out from the total-by-weight calculation) is allegedly or apparently found at the former Soldau camp(s).
6. The investigators assert with certainty this is proof of Germans hiding their crimes, do not acknowledge even a possibility that the Soviets planted evidence (tons of ash and crushed bone) against the Germans while potentially hiding their own crimes in this process. Nothing is known of what happened to those who perished at the hands of the Soviets in the Soldau camp.

Never underestimate the deception tactics, neither in scope nor in scale, of the Soviet government. They've proven time and again their methods and depravity know no bounds.
....

One can simply look through war time reports of Soviet origin published in the Western press. They are not as over-the-top as what they published on their own turf, but they are still very blunt and obviously agit-prop in nature. Stories are of course totally unverifiable and show no sign of 'investigative journalism'. So it's very likely that it is simply made up with no regards to truth whatsoever. They do not only not consider reporting, they don't even care, if it doesn't read like reporting. It has the character of essays and well, many of the authors were novelists (like Ilya Ehrenburg). So it's no surprise that stuff doesn't even look like an investigation. And well, they start with alleging 'mass extermination' rather early during 1941 and of course assert that the 'German aim' is to 'exterminate all Jews' and that this is somehow linked with a plan for world conquest.