Jan Karski's Visit to Belzec: a Reassessment

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
User avatar
hermod
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2919
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:52 am

Re: Jan Karski's Visit to Belzec: a Reassessment

Postby hermod » 6 years 3 months ago (Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:17 am)

Reviso wrote:Thus, during years, Karski spoke of Belzec and when it was noted that his story didn't fit Belzec, his admirers suggested to him that the camp was Izbica and that he would be left in peace if he replaced Belzec by Izbica, and so he did. And what if this story of extermination by quicklime was a simple propaganda lie ? What if he never was in a camp, neither Belzec nor Izbica ? His biographers Wood and Jankowski speak of a Polish antinazi leaflet from the summer 1942 that spoke of extermination by quicklime. The content of this text is so similar to Karski's story that Wood and Jankowski deduce that the leaflet has Karski's story as source. But why couldn't we think that Karski recycled the content of the leaflet ? Karski was a professional propagandist, during and after the war. It seems that he did not speak of his visit to a camp neither to Sikorski, to Władysław Raczkiewicz nor to Anthony Eden. Perhaps he used this story as an argument in order to incite Jews to ask for retaliation bombings on Germany.
R.


And what if he visited Belzec and just colored his narrative about that trivial transit camp with lurid details now dropped by exterminationist historians (because failing to mention alleged homicidal gas chambers) in his original account?

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10950&start=150#p82739
"[Austen Chamberlain] has done western civilization a great service by refuting at least one of the slanders against the Germans
because a civilization which leaves war lies unchallenged in an atmosphere of hatred and does not produce courage in its leaders to refute them
is doomed.
"

Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, on the public admission by Britain's Foreign Secretary that the WWI corpse-factory story was false, December 4, 1925

Reviso
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 365
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:21 pm

Re: Jan Karski's Visit to Belzec: a Reassessment

Postby Reviso » 6 years 3 months ago (Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:15 am)

hermod wrote:
And what if he visited Belzec and just colored his narrative about that trivial transit camp with lurid details now dropped by exterminationist historians (because failing to mention alleged homicidal gas chambers) in his original account?

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10950&start=150#p82739


If he was a liar about the lurid details, why should we believe that he wasn't a liar about the whole story ?
How could we explain that there is no trace of the story neither in his report to Sikorski nor in the minutes of his talks with Władysław Raczkiewicz and Anthony Eden ? Why should we resort to Jansson's thesis of Karski's "security paranoia" in order to accept the poor explanations Karski gave of the details in his story that don't fit Belzec ? And if the reason why he had invented the impossible details was his security paranoia, why did he maintain these details at the time of his talks with Claude Lanzmann ?
In accordance with Occam's razor, I adopt the simplest theory : his whole story was a propaganda lie.
R.

User avatar
hermod
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2919
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:52 am

Re: Jan Karski's Visit to Belzec: a Reassessment

Postby hermod » 6 years 3 months ago (Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:55 pm)

Reviso wrote:If he was a liar about the lurid details, why should we believe that he wasn't a liar about the whole story ?


Because good propaganda always includes truthful details in a story. Nothing extravagant in the theory of a true visit in Belzec with wrong fictitious atrocities. In the theory of visit in Belzec, Karski could not reasonably depict a mere transit camp without any atrocities. Making enemy things atrocious was his job after all.

How could we explain that there is no trace of the story neither in his report to Sikorski nor in the minutes of his talks with Władysław Raczkiewicz and Anthony Eden ?


Perhaps because the 3 leaders were fighting a military war, not a propaganda war (they had men fighting that war for them), and were interested only in real events, not in arousing horror tales for the sheeple ?

Why should we resort to Jansson's thesis of Karski's "security paranoia" in order to accept the poor explanations Karski gave of the details in his story that don't fit Belzec ? And if the reason why he had invented the impossible details was his security paranoia, why did he maintain these details at the time of his talks with Claude Lanzmann ?


Don't know anything about this security paranoia thing. Could you elaborate, please?

In accordance with Occam's razor, I adopt the simplest theory : his whole story was a propaganda lie.


Perhaps I still lack some elements to reach the same conclusion?
"[Austen Chamberlain] has done western civilization a great service by refuting at least one of the slanders against the Germans
because a civilization which leaves war lies unchallenged in an atmosphere of hatred and does not produce courage in its leaders to refute them
is doomed.
"

Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, on the public admission by Britain's Foreign Secretary that the WWI corpse-factory story was false, December 4, 1925

Reviso
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 365
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:21 pm

Re: Jan Karski's Visit to Belzec: a Reassessment

Postby Reviso » 6 years 3 months ago (Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:44 am)

hermod wrote:
Reviso wrote:Why should we resort to Jansson's thesis of Karski's "security paranoia" in order to accept the poor explanations Karski gave of the details in his story that don't fit Belzec ? And if the reason why he had invented the impossible details was his security paranoia, why did he maintain these details at the time of his talks with Claude Lanzmann ?


Don't know anything about this security paranoia thing. Could you elaborate, please?


Reread Jansson's article. He explicitly speaks of "security paranoia" about Karski :

Karski’s paranoia over security was so strong that he was even known to alter the nationality he assumed at Belzec from one day to the next.

and
Clearly he was the kind of man who might alter details for security’s sake without giving too much thought to whether the alterations really did increase security.


It's here :
http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/ ... _ednref113

R.

User avatar
hermod
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2919
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:52 am

Re: Jan Karski's Visit to Belzec: a Reassessment

Postby hermod » 6 years 3 months ago (Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:12 am)

Reviso wrote:
hermod wrote:
Reviso wrote:Why should we resort to Jansson's thesis of Karski's "security paranoia" in order to accept the poor explanations Karski gave of the details in his story that don't fit Belzec ? And if the reason why he had invented the impossible details was his security paranoia, why did he maintain these details at the time of his talks with Claude Lanzmann ?


Don't know anything about this security paranoia thing. Could you elaborate, please?


Reread Jansson's article. He explicitly speaks of "security paranoia" about Karski :

Karski’s paranoia over security was so strong that he was even known to alter the nationality he assumed at Belzec from one day to the next.

and
Clearly he was the kind of man who might alter details for security’s sake without giving too much thought to whether the alterations really did increase security.


It's here :
http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/ ... _ednref113


From Jansson's article:
Karski reported entering Belzec disguised as a guard of Baltic nationality, but the non-German guards at Belzec were Ukrainian

Raul Hilberg points out that while Karski claimed to have entered Belzec disguised as a guard of Baltic nationality, most or all of the non-German guards were in fact Ukrainians.110 Carlo Mattogno makes a similar argument, asserting that Estonian guards never served at Belzec.111 Here Karski’s descriptions are simply the result of his concern for security, which caused him to modify the details of his experiences in order to protect his contacts and the contacts of his associates. As his biographers explained,

At various times later in the war, Karski said he had worn Latvian, Lithuanian, and Estonian uniforms. He falsified the nationality for security and perhaps political reasons. ’If I wrote Estonian," he explained in an interview, "certainly it couldn’t be Estonian. It would be idiotic of me to expose the [underground] Jews’ connections with the guards in that way".112

Karski’s paranoia over security was so strong that he was even known to alter the nationality he assumed at Belzec from one day to the next.


Karski's biographers and Jansson are entitled to see security paranoia in that. But I rather see a liar just trying to extricate himself from the inconsistencies in his lies. The "certainly it couldn't be Estonian" part is hilarious and sounds so much like words told by a liar caught with his pants down.

Reviso wrote:And if the reason why he had invented the impossible details was his security paranoia, why did he maintain these details at the time of his talks with Claude Lanzmann


Probably in order to look at least consistent with his earlier statements. A liar who changes his story too often, is quickly unmasked.
"[Austen Chamberlain] has done western civilization a great service by refuting at least one of the slanders against the Germans
because a civilization which leaves war lies unchallenged in an atmosphere of hatred and does not produce courage in its leaders to refute them
is doomed.
"

Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, on the public admission by Britain's Foreign Secretary that the WWI corpse-factory story was false, December 4, 1925

User avatar
Hektor
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 5168
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:59 am

Re: Jan Karski's Visit to Belzec: a Reassessment

Postby Hektor » 5 years 9 months ago (Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:22 pm)

Reviso wrote:In chapter 29 of "his" book, Karski tells his secret visit to the Warsaw ghetto (october 1942). At the end of this chapter, he jumps ahead and tells his conversation with Szmul Zygelbojm (London, 2 December 1942). He says that he spoke to Zygelbojm of the Warsaw ghetto, but he does not say that he spoke of his visit to Belzec. And then comes chapter 30, about the visit to Belzec. How is it possible that Karski didn't speak of his visit to Belzec during his conversation with Zygelbojm, or, if he did, that he remains silent in his book about this part of the conversation ? A possible explanation : 1° he did not speak to Zygelbojm of a visit to Belzec because he had not made such a visit; 2° when he wrote chapter 29, he was not aware that there would be a chapter about a visit to Belzec.
I can be wrong, of course, and I would be interested by a discussion.
....head of the British Special Operations Executive. In other interviews, Karski stated that Lord Selbourne [read Selborne] thought his story similar to the untrue stories spread in the first world war of the Germans bashing out the heads of Belgian babies, but supported such propaganda because it was good for public morale."



Concerning Jan Karski I found the following video quite interesting:


Most will recall that Claude Lanzmann made a movie called "Shoah", among many others he also interviewed Jan Karski in that movie.
The video includes the portion of the interview with Karski, but there is also an introduction and a discussion part at the end.
A view comments:
- Karski doesn't really talk about the supposed observations he made in Poland with regards to the "extermination of the Jews".
- He talks elaborately about his talks to Franklin Delano Roosevelt and other public key figures in the US.
- Listening to Jan Karski, who tells everything in apparently exact detail about his meetings, one quickly gets the impression that he's a narcissist that likes to make up stuff to boost his own importance.
- People from the audience are surprised that Karski was able to remember those things so exact decades after the events (I think it was an Israeli Professor that asked this).
- Apparently Felix Frankfurter did express disbelieve about the claims made by Jan Karski, nevertheless he put him through to FDR.

Felix Frankfurter greeted Karski's report with skepticism, later explaining: "I did not say that he was lying, I said that I could not believe him. There is a difference." --- Could Felix Frankfurter have been the first Holocaust denier?

Reviso
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 365
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:21 pm

Re: Jan Karski's Visit to Belzec: a Reassessment

Postby Reviso » 8 months 12 hours ago (Sun Oct 09, 2022 4:32 am)

I venture to add a few additional reasons why I doubt that Karski spoke of his visit to a camp in the first days of December 1942.
Let us first recall that when Karski was interrogated by the British at the end of November 1942, the report did not say a word about a visit to a camp.

Adam Puławski, in his very interesting article "Revisiting Jan Karski's Final Mission" (Israel Journal of Foreign Affairs, vol. 15, 2021, issue 2, p. 289-297, https://www.academia.edu/57800603/Revis ... al_Mission ) says:
"Karski himself had suggested in January 1943 that thePolish leadership abandon the emphasis on persecution and terror in occupiedPoland and instead emphasize the ferocious resistance being mounted against the Germans so as to galvanize Allied support for Poland's political goals. (...) It was no coincidence, therefore, that on December 30, 1942, in an interview with Frank Savery, an employee of the British Embassy to the Polishgovernment, Karski asked whether “the Allies were aware that Poland was not only suffering, but also struggling,” and it was in the context of joint struggle that he mentioned Jews: “The entire Polish population of Warsaw, in which ahandful of surviving Jews may be included, is united not only in hatred of theGermans, but also in resistance.”

In February 1943, Karski met Anthony Eden, British Foreign Secretary. Eden asked Karski about the fate of the Jews, but (see again Puławski) Karski was more interested in talking about the conflicts between Polish communist and non-communist resistance fighters. Puławski's text suggests that Eden found nothing of note about the Jews except this statement by Karski: "The Polish population of Warsaw, including the remaining Jews, is united not only in hatred toward the Germans, but also in resistance."

If Karski had agreed to clandestinely visit a camp with the specific intention of testifying to the West about German atrocities, is it not surprising that as soon as he arrived in England or thereabouts (December 1942), he avoided to talk too much about the sufferings of the Jews and that, even when questioned by Eden about these sufferings, he did not recount his visit to the camp?

Wood and Jankowski 2014, p. 284, 3d note on p. 186, say: "Karski's tales of atrocity. In his last report before leaving England, Karski noted that the stories wre part of his standard presentation in his second round of meetings with Britons". This report is not dated, but Wood and Jankowski say it is from May 1943. So there were two sets of interviews with Britons and it seems that it was only or mainly in the second set that Karski told his stories of atrocities.

It would be interesting to know the exact terms of this Karski report. And by the way, there is another report, dated March 25, 1943 and signed J. Kwaśniewski (another pseudonym of Karski, after Wood and Jankowski) on conversations with English and American personalities in London (Wood and Jankowski 2014 , p. 275). This report would also be interesting to know in detail.

For the above reasons, it seems doubtful to me that in the first days of December 1942 Karski told Schwarzbart that he had visited the Belzec camp. One can wonder if at a certain moment, he did not re-endorse the testimony of another courier. (We know that several Polish couriers traveled simultaneously between Warsaw and London, see Puławski's article.)
Of course, it is possible that Karski behaved with his Jewish interlocutors differently than with the Allied politicians.

In any case, I think it would be good to have a clear idea of ​​Karski's reports kept at the Hoover Institution Archives.

Archie
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 512
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:44 am

Re: Jan Karski's Visit to Belzec: a Reassessment

Postby Archie » 7 months 4 weeks ago (Sun Oct 09, 2022 5:16 pm)

Reviso wrote:I venture to add a few additional reasons why I doubt that Karski spoke of his visit to a camp in the first days of December 1942.
Let us first recall that when Karski was interrogated by the British at the end of November 1942, the report did not say a word about a visit to a camp.

Adam Puławski, in his very interesting article "Revisiting Jan Karski's Final Mission" (Israel Journal of Foreign Affairs, vol. 15, 2021, issue 2, p. 289-297, https://www.academia.edu/57800603/Revis ... al_Mission ) says:
"Karski himself had suggested in January 1943 that thePolish leadership abandon the emphasis on persecution and terror in occupiedPoland and instead emphasize the ferocious resistance being mounted against the Germans so as to galvanize Allied support for Poland's political goals. (...) It was no coincidence, therefore, that on December 30, 1942, in an interview with Frank Savery, an employee of the British Embassy to the Polishgovernment, Karski asked whether “the Allies were aware that Poland was not only suffering, but also struggling,” and it was in the context of joint struggle that he mentioned Jews: “The entire Polish population of Warsaw, in which ahandful of surviving Jews may be included, is united not only in hatred of theGermans, but also in resistance.”

In February 1943, Karski met Anthony Eden, British Foreign Secretary. Eden asked Karski about the fate of the Jews, but (see again Puławski) Karski was more interested in talking about the conflicts between Polish communist and non-communist resistance fighters. Puławski's text suggests that Eden found nothing of note about the Jews except this statement by Karski: "The Polish population of Warsaw, including the remaining Jews, is united not only in hatred toward the Germans, but also in resistance."

If Karski had agreed to clandestinely visit a camp with the specific intention of testifying to the West about German atrocities, is it not surprising that as soon as he arrived in England or thereabouts (December 1942), he avoided to talk too much about the sufferings of the Jews and that, even when questioned by Eden about these sufferings, he did not recount his visit to the camp?

Wood and Jankowski 2014, p. 284, 3d note on p. 186, say: "Karski's tales of atrocity. In his last report before leaving England, Karski noted that the stories wre part of his standard presentation in his second round of meetings with Britons". This report is not dated, but Wood and Jankowski say it is from May 1943. So there were two sets of interviews with Britons and it seems that it was only or mainly in the second set that Karski told his stories of atrocities.

It would be interesting to know the exact terms of this Karski report. And by the way, there is another report, dated March 25, 1943 and signed J. Kwaśniewski (another pseudonym of Karski, after Wood and Jankowski) on conversations with English and American personalities in London (Wood and Jankowski 2014 , p. 275). This report would also be interesting to know in detail.

For the above reasons, it seems doubtful to me that in the first days of December 1942 Karski told Schwarzbart that he had visited the Belzec camp. One can wonder if at a certain moment, he did not re-endorse the testimony of another courier. (We know that several Polish couriers traveled simultaneously between Warsaw and London, see Puławski's article.)
Of course, it is possible that Karski behaved with his Jewish interlocutors differently than with the Allied politicians.

In any case, I think it would be good to have a clear idea of ​​Karski's reports kept at the Hoover Institution Archives.


Regarding the bolded sentence, what do you make of the Schwarzbart telegram from 5 Dec 1942?
Image

"Special official envoy Gentile escaped and arrived here left capital this October saw Warsaw ghetto on last August and September witnessed mass murder of one transport six thousand Jews at Belzec spoke to him yesterday 5 hours ..."

He does not name Karski specifically but the story about the 6K transport at Belzec is identical to the Karski's story.

As a general comment (not directly in response to the above post), here is how I read this article. Traditionally Karski is considered a "Holocaust" witness/personality. His book sold fairly well and he was given all sorts of awards for righteous Gentile etc. And he is traditionally associated with Belzec for which there are few witnesses. But the substance of his testimony is problematic because it contradicts the standard version in very serious ways. Most importantly he claims he infiltrated the Belzec camp yet he did not notice any gas chambers or enormous grave pits and even worse he claims to have see a transport LEAVE Belzec and he ASSUMES that they died elsewhere. The traditional side eventually noticed this and some (notably Hilberg) have actually tried to debunk him with revisionist-style arguments while most others have tried to make a delicate switch over to the Izbica theory. And revisionists like Mattogno have critiqued him as well. But Jansson's main point is that if Karski did in fact go to Belzec, his testimony actually upholds the revisionist position and so in this way he could be seen as a witness FOR the revisionist side. Especially when you consider his later interviews where he reiterates that Belzec was a transit camp and where he backs off on some of the propagandistic elements of his book (like saying the guards shots their guns in the air to hurry people up instead of actually shooting the people or saying that the lime on the trains was for hygienic purposes).

Reviso
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 365
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:21 pm

Re: Jan Karski's Visit to Belzec: a Reassessment

Postby Reviso » 7 months 4 weeks ago (Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:34 am)

See my following post.
Last edited by Reviso on Mon Oct 10, 2022 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

Reviso
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 365
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:21 pm

Re: Jan Karski's Visit to Belzec: a Reassessment

Postby Reviso » 7 months 4 weeks ago (Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:46 am)

Reviso wrote:
Archie wrote:Regarding the bolded sentence, what do you make of the Schwarzbart telegram from 5 Dec 1942?
Image

"Special official envoy Gentile escaped and arrived here left capital this October saw Warsaw ghetto on last August and September witnessed mass murder of one transport six thousand Jews at Belzec spoke to him yesterday 5 hours ..."

He does not name Karski specifically but the story about the 6K transport at Belzec is identical to the Karski's story.


I think my answer is already in my preceding post :
For the above reasons, it seems doubtful to me that in the first days of December 1942 Karski told Schwarzbart that he had visited the Belzec camp. One can wonder if at a certain moment, he did not re-endorse the testimony of another courier. (We know that several Polish couriers traveled simultaneously between Warsaw and London, see Puławski's article.)
Of course, it is possible that Karski behaved with his Jewish interlocutors differently than with the Allied politicians.


(Perhaps I was not very clear : I envisage that the "gentile envoy" in Schwarzbart's telegram is another courier than Karski and that Karski later reendorsed the testimony of this other courier.)

In an interview with Maciej Kozlowski (published in 1987), Karski said: "For many years I could not understand it. I thought that Belzec was a transit camp. It was after the war that I learned that it was a death camp. " But what does this prove? When this interview of Karski with Kozlowski was published, the devastating interview where Hilberg said that he would not devote a footnote to Karski's testimony had already been published as well (1986). It is possible that the Izbica theory was already in the making, as Wood and Jankowski had interviews with Karski as early as 1987 (see Wood and Jankowski 2014, p. 275). Maybe they put in Karski's head: "What you saw was a transit camp" (Izbica, for example) and Karski lined up as best he could.

I know that if Karski's testimony were true, it would be an argument in favor of the thesis that Belzec was a transit camp (and I do not fight this thesis), but it seems to me impossible to base anything on Karski's word.
Allow me to recall one of my observations: Karski enters a camp clandestinely to testify in the West about the cruelties committed by the Nazis against the Jews, but in the first weeks of his stay in London, he advises against insisting on the sufferings of the Jews.

Reviso
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 365
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:21 pm

Re: Jan Karski's Visit to Belzec: a Reassessment

Postby Reviso » 7 months 4 weeks ago (Mon Oct 10, 2022 6:36 am)

Sorry, my post from 2:34 am should be deleted. It was completed in my post from 2:46 am .

User avatar
hermod
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2919
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:52 am

Re: Jan Karski's Visit to Belzec: a Reassessment

Postby hermod » 7 months 4 weeks ago (Mon Oct 10, 2022 11:17 am)

Belzec 1.0 : death trains and no gas chambers...

"[Austen Chamberlain] has done western civilization a great service by refuting at least one of the slanders against the Germans
because a civilization which leaves war lies unchallenged in an atmosphere of hatred and does not produce courage in its leaders to refute them
is doomed.
"

Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, on the public admission by Britain's Foreign Secretary that the WWI corpse-factory story was false, December 4, 1925

Reviso
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 365
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:21 pm

Re: Jan Karski's Visit to Belzec: a Reassessment

Postby Reviso » 7 months 4 weeks ago (Tue Oct 11, 2022 2:58 am)

hermod wrote:Belzec 1.0 : death trains and no gas chambers...


Yes, Karski spoke of death trains and not of gas chambers. It is the principal reason why Hilberg dispised his testimony and why Jansson believes it. The prolem, for me, is that there are many impossibilities and variations in Karski's statements and that the explanations he gave are not convincing.

For example, he claimed in his 1944 book that he entered the camp in an Estonian uniform, which Hilberg, in his 1986 interview, pointed out as an impossibility. Later, Karski, who was in contact with Wood and Jankowski as early as 1987, explained that he had said "Estonian" instead of "Ukrainian" for security reasons. But if Karski had entered the Belzec camp or a subcamp of Belzec, he had no reason to believe that there were Estonian guards in the camp he had entered. (There were only Ukrainian guards in Belzec and the subcamps.) So what security benefit was there in claiming that he had been helped by Estonians? The Germans (in the unlikely event that in 1944 they wanted to investigate this 1942 incident) knew that there were no Estonian guards at Belzec, so why would they have taken the Estonian drivel from Karski seriously?
Jansson himself views Karski's security concerns as paranoid. It also seems that the security motive explanation did not convince everyone, because in the 1999 Polish edition of his book Story of a Secret State, Karski gave another explanation: he wanted to spare Ukrainian sensitivities at a time when it was still possible to hope that Poles and Ukrainians would agree on certain territorial issues. This explanation is no more convincing than the other, since in the 1944 edition of his book, Karski had said that there were Ukrainian guards in the camp.
So Karski was an incorrigible liar and you can never take his word for it.

User avatar
hermod
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2919
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:52 am

Re: Jan Karski's Visit to Belzec: a Reassessment

Postby hermod » 7 months 4 weeks ago (Tue Oct 11, 2022 4:08 am)

Reviso wrote:
hermod wrote:Belzec 1.0 : death trains and no gas chambers...


Yes, Karski spoke of death trains and not of gas chambers. It is the principal reason why Hilberg dispised his testimony and why Jansson believes it. The prolem, for me, is that there are many impossibilities and variations in Karski's statements and that the explanations he gave are not convincing.


Hilberg also dealt with the numerous big imposssibilities and inconsistencies in Gerstein's notorious testimony (probably a forgery) by claiming that Kurt Gerstein was crazy. Very poor and unconvincing damage control strategy if I'm asked.



"[Austen Chamberlain] has done western civilization a great service by refuting at least one of the slanders against the Germans
because a civilization which leaves war lies unchallenged in an atmosphere of hatred and does not produce courage in its leaders to refute them
is doomed.
"

Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, on the public admission by Britain's Foreign Secretary that the WWI corpse-factory story was false, December 4, 1925


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests