Challenge to Believer 'Pon' on so called "Eyewitnesses"

[Hannover]

I challenge you to tell this forum about so called "eyewitnesses" that you find convincing.
It's a simple request.

- Give us their names.
- Tell us what they claim in their own words.
- Tell us where they were when they supposedly 'witnessed' events which allegedly support the "holocaust" narrative.
- Tell us when they supposedly did this alleged witnessing.
- Tell us what trials they testified in.

Thanks, Hannover

No alleged human remains of millions in allegedly known locations to see, no 'holocaust'.

[Pon]

Given enough heat almost anything serves as fuel (this is simply a physical fact), it is said that they needed only to add small amounts of coke once the heat was enough for the bodies to self-combust, 5 to 8 people was a exaggeration, the probable number was 3 in one muffle if I remember correctly (I could look it up if you want), I think this was raised in the Irving-Deborah trial (but it's a mess reading through everything to find it).

This is absurd. The crematoria ovens were unable to reach extreme temperatures due to their primitive designs; namely, brick and mortar. The Germans had opportunities for far superior designs to be built at Auschwitz, but they did not do it. The fragile refractory bricks of the human crematories would have been severely damaged by extremely high temperatures such as that, and the crematory ovens would have to have been stopped in order to replace those damaged bricks.

As for cremation capacity, SS Prufer, who was the builder of the ovens at Auschwitz, stated on 5 March 1946:
"I spoke about the enormous strain on the overused furnaces. I told Chief Engineer Sander: I am worried whether the furnaces can stand the excessive usage. In my presence two cadavers were pushed into one muffle instead of one cadaver. The furnaces could not stand the strain."

Kurt Prüfer stated that:

1. The cremations in the concentration camp ovens took place "more slowly" than in civilian ovens.
2. In Krema II and Krema III of Birkenau (5 three-muffle ovens) it was possible to cremate 15 cadavers in one hour, that is, the duration of a single cremation was one hour.
3. The attempt to simultaneously cremate two cadavers failed because "the furnaces could not stand the strain."

Germans did not cremate multiple bodies at once at Auschwitz. Your number is not "probable". Anyone that says they cremated multiple bodies at once is a liar, plain and simple. It's a great litmus test to see if someone is actually a credible eyewitness.

You call it an "exaggeration" but actually it's just a lie. I urge you to make a thread on cremations if you want, that's beyond the scope here. For the record, as I already pointed out, the Germans had the technology to cremate multiple bodies at once, continuously. They just didn't install it at Auschwitz.

Kurt Prüfer:

Q. Were you the sole Topf engineer in Auschwitz in spring 1943?

A. No, [senior engineer Karl] Schultze was with me in Auschwitz at the time. I saw personally about 60 corpses of women and men of different ages, which were being prepared for incineration. That was at 10 in the morning. I witnessed the incineration of six corpses and and came to the conclusion that the furnaces were working well.

Q. Did you see a gas chamber next to the crematoriums?

A. Yes, I did see one next to the crematorium. Between the gas chamber and the crematorium there was a connecting structure.

Q. Did you know that in the gas chamber and in the crematoriums there took place the liquidation of innocent human beings?

A. I have known since spring 1943 that innocent human beings were being liquidated in Auschwitz gas chambers and that their corpses were subsequently incinerated in the crematoriums.

Q. Who is the designer of the ventilation systems for the gas chambers?

A. Schultze was the designer of the ventilation systems in the gas chambers; and he installed them.

Q. Why was the brick lining of the muffles so quickly damaged?

A. The bricks were damaged after six months because the strain on the furnaces was colossal.

---------


Karl Schultze was responsible for introducing an air-injection system into the furnaces, this is what enabled the furnaces to get so hot and subsequently also burn several bodies at once.


The attempt to burn to bodies at once was obviously improved upon. This would be a obvious way to burn bodies faster given enough heat. The ovens and chimneys were repaired plenty of times due to the strain (there was also probably chimney fires because of this, as witnesses has reported fire and smoke bulging out of the chimneys, which would not normally be seen in these kind of chimneys).

Also, of course, no one can ignore the elephant in the room, that he mentions the gas chambers, which also schultze does (although he thought they were only used for criminals). Maybe I'll start a different thread at some point, there's already two other threads started that wants me to respond, I'll have to decide how much time I want to devote to this particular matter. The matter was also brought up in the Irving vs Deborah trial, so there's a lot more information about it, I remember that they explained that the bodies would self-combust when the heat had reached a certain point and that they used several bodies, as it was a trial setting you can bet that evidence was brought up to support the claim.

[borjastick]

Yehuda Bacon:
''and in each gas chamber there were two pipes leading from the ceiling to the floor, and around them there were four iron columns surrounded by strong wire. When the operation was over and the people were forced inside, the SS opened some device above, like with a drainage pipe, and introduced Zyklon B. There were two of these in each gas chamber in crematoria Nos. 1 and 2 - that is to say, there were 4; their dimensions were 40x40 centimetres; below were the ventilators and also holes for cleaning with water. Afterwards, when they dismantled the crematoria, we saw the ventilators separately.''

Josef Erber:
''In each of these gassing areas were two ducts: in each duct, four iron pipes ran from the floor to the roof. These were encased with steel mesh wire and inside there was a tin canister with a low rim. Attached to this tin was a wire by which it could be pulled up to the roof. When the lids were lifted, one could pull up the tin canister and shake the gas crystals into it. Then the canister was lowered, and the lid closed.
(There were 4 introduction columns per chamber before the division, so Erber can only be referring to the state after the division, when there were 2 columns per chamber.)''

Dr Bendel:
''In the middle of these chambers, descending from the ceiling, were two mesh tubes with external valves through which the gas was introduced.''

Henryk Tauber:
''The side of these pillars, which went up through the roof, were of heavy wire mesh. Inside this grid, there was another of finer mesh and inside that a third of very fine mesh. Inside this last mesh cage there was a removable can which was pulled out with a wire to recover the pellets from which the gas had evaporated.''

Filip Mueller:
''Down the length of the room concrete pillars supported the ceiling. However, not all the pillars served this purpose: for there were others, too. The Zyclon [sic] B gas crystals were inserted through openings into hollow pillars which were made of sheet metal. These were perforated at regular intervals and inside them a spiral ran from the top to bottom in order to ensure as even a distribution of the granular crystals as possible.''
(translated from french by Susanne Flatauer)

Then we have Michal Kula and Rudolf Hoess as well (as you know). I think there are more witnesses as well, I am searching for a good place on the web to read various witness accounts. Of course none of the witnesses would describe the columns exactly (I don't think even in the best of worlds any set of witnesses would describe the same object exactly, especially not after some time had passed, so it is a moot point really), the best source, I think, is Michal Kula which were in the workshop where they constructed the columns, it is possible though that the construction changed in various ways which could account for some of the discrepencies, but I think he simply got it wrong with the 70x70 figure, OR that he didn't realise himself that it was the inner structure that went through the roof.

They are all just repeating each other much the same as those very similar drawings of Aliens by those people who claim to have been abducted. Oh and current bunch of muppets who all repeat the dodgy science of CO2 and climate change. Just because the same 'fact' is repeated loads doesn't make it real.

[Webmaster]

I have split up Pon's post from the following thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12764&start=15

Webmaster

I don't think that it was common knowledge at the time (just as it isn't common knowledge now) which would be required unless they all sat in a room together planning what to say.

Very, very few of these "eyewitnesses" mention any sort of wire mesh columns, so it's not about "they all". Can you even name five testimonies where that have claimed to have witnessed these exact columns?

Yehuda Bacon:
''and in each gas chamber there were two pipes leading from the ceiling to the floor, and around them there were four iron columns surrounded by strong wire. When the operation was over and the people were forced inside, the SS opened some device above, like with a drainage pipe, and introduced Zyklon B. There were two of these in each gas chamber in crematoria Nos. 1 and 2 - that is to say, there were 4; their dimensions were 40x40 centimetres; below were the ventilators and also holes for cleaning with water. Afterwards, when they dismantled the crematoria, we saw the ventilators separately.''

Josef Erber:
''In each of these gassing areas were two ducts: in each duct, four iron pipes ran from the floor to the roof. These were encased with steel mesh wire and inside there was a tin canister with a low rim. Attached to this tin was a wire by which it could be pulled up to the roof. When the lids were lifted, one could pull up the tin canister and shake the gas crystals into it. Then the canister was lowered, and the lid closed.
(There were 4 introduction columns per chamber before the division, so Erber can only be referring to the state after the division, when there were 2 columns per chamber.)''

Dr Bendel:
''In the middle of these chambers, descending from the ceiling, were two mesh tubes with external valves through which the gas was introduced.''

Henryk Tauber:
''The side of these pillars, which went up through the roof, were of heavy wire mesh. Inside this grid, there was another of finer mesh and inside that a third of very fine mesh. Inside this last mesh cage there was a removable can which was pulled out with a wire to recover the pellets from which the gas had evaporated.''

Filip Mueller:
''Down the length of the room concrete pillars supported the ceiling. However, not all the pillars served this purpose: for there were others, too. The Zyclon [sic] B gas crystals were inserted through openings into hollow pillars which were made of sheet metal. These were perforated at regular intervals and inside them a spiral ran from the top to bottom in order to ensure as even a distribution of the granular crystals as possible.''
(translated from french by Susanne Flatauer)

Then we have Michal Kula and Rudolf Hoess as well (as you know). I think there are more witnesses as well, I am searching for a good place on the web to read various witness accounts. Of course none of the witnesses would describe the columns exactly (I don't think even in the best of worlds any set of witnesses would describe the same object exactly, especially not after some time had passed, so it is a moot point really), the best source, I think, is Michal Kula which were in the workshop where they constructed the columns, it is possible though that the construction changed in various ways which could account for some of the discrepencies, but I think he simply got it wrong with the 70x70 figure, OR that he didn't realise himself that it was the inner structure that went through the roof.

[Hannover]

I asked:

- Give us their names.
- Tell us what they claim in their own words.
- Tell us where they were when they supposedly 'witnessed' events which allegedly support the "holocaust" narrative.
- Tell us when they supposedly did this alleged witnessing.
- Tell us what trials they testified in.

Pon listed Yehuda Bacon who is claimed to have said:

"and in each gas chamber there were two pipes leading from the ceiling to the floor, and around them there were four iron columns surrounded by strong wire. When the operation was over and the people were forced inside, the SS opened some device above, like with a drainage pipe, and introduced Zyklon B. There were two of these in each gas chamber in crematoria Nos. 1 and 2 - that is to say, there were 4; their dimensions were 40x40 centimetres; below were the ventilators and also holes for cleaning with water. Afterwards, when they dismantled the crematoria, we saw the ventilators separately.''

I assume Pon thinks this is about Auschwitz.
Yet we see no source given, no date, no trial listing for Bacon, nothing. Pure fabrication.
This alleged Bacon says that people were forced inside "when the operation was over". Which is laughable since the alleged gassing were said to take only minutes, therefore the alleged weapon, Zyklon-B insecticide, which takes hours to complete the release of it's cyanide load, would still have been emitting gas as the door was supposedly opened. Thereby gassing the alleged next batch Jews who were supposedly waiting by the door, not to mention anyone in area.
The storyline also says that Jews were told they were to get showers, therefore they supposedly were passive, not "forced inside".
And that's just a small portion of that manufactured Yehuda Bacon lie which debunks itself.

See more on what is alleged vs, science & rational thinking:
For a thorough demolition of the alleged Auschwitz gas chambers & alleged Auschwitz homicidal gassing process see analysis at: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11143&p=83723&hilit=model+asmarques#p83723

- Hannover

No alleged human remains of many millions to be seen in allegedly known locations, no 'holocaust'.

[Hannover]

Pon mentioned Henryk Tauber, who said:

''The side of these pillars, which went up through the roof, were of heavy wire mesh. Inside this grid, there was another of finer mesh and inside that a third of very fine mesh. Inside this last mesh cage there was a removable can which was pulled out with a wire to recover the pellets from which the gas had evaporated.''

Again laughable since it's claimed that an SS man in a gas mask stood on the roof dumping the Zyklon-B, while the story also says up to 2000 people were awaiting there turn for 'showers' were standing next to the alleged 'gas chamber' where they could have easily seen this alleged guy in a gas mask dumping the Zyklon-B that was supposedly used. Truly ridiculous.
again see:
The alleged Auschwitz homicidal gassing process reviewed and demolished here., must reading:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11143&p=83723&hilit=model+asmarques#p83723


And of course Pon doesn't want readers to see what else this Tauber character said:
But here's the goods on another in the endless list of lying "eyewitnesses", Henryk Tauber, taken from:
Industry's Roberto Muehlenkamp cites debunked liar Henryk Tauber as proof of Auschwitz 'gas chambers' !!:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11279

Tauber was an alleged crematorium worker who claimed to have slept in the crematoria dormitories, here's his story:

- In testifying to the Soviet Commission (Nuremberg document USSR-008) of 1945, he claims 10,000-12,000 per day were cremated in the ovens of Auschwitz-Birkenau.

This is an utter impossibility given the timeline and the number of functioning crematoria at Auschwitz/Birkenau. The 10,000-12,000 per day figure also served the Communist assertion that 279,000 were cremated monthly (as alleged by the Soviets in a May 1945 report). The figure is laughably desperate.

- Tauber stated that a body could be cremated in 5-7 minutes.

An impossibility even today (it's more like 60-90 minutes for complete cremation), simply impossible with the disease abatement crematorium technology available at Auschwitz during WWII.

- Tauber stated:
"Ober Capo August explained to us that, according to the calculations and plans for this crematorium, 5 to 7 minutes was allowed to burn one corpse in a muffle."

As stated, an impossibility, and there are no such German "calculations and plans" in the records.

- Tauber testified to skimming off boiling human fat from massive open air cremations.

Impossible, the fat would have ignited.

- Tauber testified to reservoirs filled with human fat that flowed from the burning corpses.

Again, hilariously impossible.

- Tauber:
"One day the SS men threw a man into the boiling fat in the open-air pit filled with human fat that ran from the corpses into a separate reservoir dug in the ground, and was poured over the corpses to accelerate the combustion, then pulled him out, still alive, and shot him. "The next day, the corpse was brought back to the crematorium, where it was incinerated in a pit"

Simply absurd, no more explanation necessary.

- Tauber testified that he inserted and cremated 8 bodies at once, in one oven muffle, in order to signal Allied aircraft.

Impossible, there was not enough space for 8 corpses, and more than one corpse per muffle would have caused damage to the oven, as stated by the builder of the crematoria, SS Kurt Prufer.

- Tauber speaks of the existence of quaint wooden benches in the alleged in the dressing rooms of the alleged 'gas chambers'.

Lovely, considering the already impossible space availability vs. the numbers allegedly gassed per session. There is no rational, sustainable evidence for homicidal gas chambers, unless you accept the lying eyewitnesses like Tauber .... cited by Roberto.

Yeah boy, "eyewitnesses" are proof. Therefore, witchcraft was / is a proven fact.

- Hannover

This is too easy.

- Hannover

[Hannover]

Pon mentioned Josef Erber:

''In each of these gassing areas were two ducts: in each duct, four iron pipes ran from the floor to the roof. These were encased with steel mesh wire and inside there was a tin canister with a low rim. Attached to this tin was a wire by which it could be pulled up to the roof. When the lids were lifted, one could pull up the tin canister and shake the gas crystals into it. Then the canister was lowered, and the lid closed.
(There were 4 introduction columns per chamber before the division, so Erber can only be referring to the state after the division, when there were 2 columns per chamber.)''

So now we have "crystals", but the claim is that Zyklon-B insecticide was used, which was a chunky granular product which released cyanide upon exposure.
Then we again have a guy on the roof of the alleged 'gas chamber' that everyone supposedly waiting would have seen. LOL

Pon persists with the 'Kula columns lie, which is routed here:
Germar Rudolf demolishes the alleged Zyklon-B 'Kula Columns'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10949
and:
Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4111

Pon's Josef Erber utterly debunked here:
Post-trial testimony of Josef Erber
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5851

- Hannover

The alleged Auschwitz homicidal gassing process reviewed and demolished here., must reading:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11143&p=83723&hilit=model+asmarques#p83723

[Hannover]

Pon quotes a Dr Bendel:
''In the middle of these chambers, descending from the ceiling, were two mesh tubes with external valves through which the gas was introduced.''

Once again, we see a strained refrence to the thoroughly debunked 'Kula columns', see above.
But now we see the contradictory twist of "external valves". I assume the alleged guy on the roof, which those allegedly waiting would have seen (see above), supposedly would have shoved the alleged Zyklon-B granules / "crystals" into. Of course this contradicts the impossible storyline which says that the guy on the roof opened four little chimneys / 'holes', not ""external valves".

Bendel has been covered with ease previously , and predictably Pon does not tell us what Bendel really said.
see:
Holocaust Industry's Roberto Muehlenkamp says "eyewitness" Bendel is proof of 'holocaust':
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11297
excerpt:

- Bendel said that four million people who were gassed at Auschwitz.

- Bendel, in court, said groups of 1000 Jews where killed with Zyklon-B in a room measuring 10 meters long by 4 meters wide by 1.6 meters high.

When asked, how 1000 people can possibly fit in to a room of 64 square meters, he answered, with "the German method".

When asked: "You earnestly believe, 10 people can be put into ½ a cubic meter?"
Bendel's Holocaust Logic answer:
"The 4 million gassed in Auschwitz are testimony to it."

- Bendel testified that 1 million were gassed at Birkenau from January 1, 1944 to Jan 18, 1945. The latest number (which has changed constantly), now says 1.25 million were gassed for the entire duration of the war. The official storyline says that the alleged 'gassings' ceased 11/44.
Once again, they can't keep their lies straight.

- Bendel stated that 'gassings lasted two minutes and then there was complete silence. Five minutes later the doors were opened, then the corpses movers ('sonderkommandos') went in ..... but of course, if true, the Zyklon-B would have still been outgassing it's cyanide load killing them all.

- Bendel's allegations that both underground rooms in each of crematories I and II were gas chambers conflicts totally with the process described by the Auschwitz Museum authorities who aver that only one room which had one small entry door served this purpose.

Contradictions and impossibilities are the rule, not the exception, for laughable "eyewitnesses".

- Bendel also claimed that the Germans had extracted seventeen tons (34,000 lbs.) of gold from victims teeth.
When told that this meant that on average each person had 4gr of gold in their mouths, Bendel said:

"It depended on the state of their teeth or their dentures."

- Bendel said that during June 1944, almost 25,000 per day were being gassed.
Again, a further contradiction of other lying "eyewitnesses" who made different impossible claims.

- Bendel said of cremations:
"I came at seven o'clock in the morning with the others and saw white smoke still rising from the trenches, which indicated that a whole transport had been liquidated or finished off during the night. In Crematorium No. 4 the result which was achieved by burning was apparently not sufficient. The work was not going on quickly enough, so behind the crematorium they dug three large trenches 12 metres long and 6 metres wide. After a bit it was found that the results achieved even in these three big trenches were not quick enough, so in the middle of these big trenches they built two canals through which the human fat or grease should seep so that work could be continued in a quicker way. The capacity of these trenches was almost fantastic. Crematorium No. 4 was able to burn 1000 people during the day, but this system of trenches was able to deal with the same number in one hour."

- Bendel said the SS packed people in 1,000 or 2,000 at a time like sardines, and then tossed in young children above the packed heads when the laughably alleged 'gas chamber' was full.
But remember that a next batch was supposedly waiting at the doorway thinking they were to receive showers.

- Bendel was asked:
"Were the people dressed or undressed at the time?
"They were naked", he said.
"How tall was the room?"
"About 5 feet 8 inches. Screaming lasted two minutes. Two tins were sufficient for a thousand people", he testified.

So there we have it. Another lying "eyewitness" who, when not contradicting other liars, makes impossible & absurd claims.

- Hannover

The alleged Auschwitz homicidal gassing process reviewed and demolished here., must reading:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11143&p=83723&hilit=model+asmarques#p83723

[Hannover]

Pon quotes a Filip Mueller:

''Down the length of the room concrete pillars supported the ceiling. However, not all the pillars served this purpose: for there were others, too. The Zyclon [sic] B gas crystals were inserted through openings into hollow pillars which were made of sheet metal. These were perforated at regular intervals and inside them a spiral ran from the top to bottom in order to ensure as even a distribution of the granular crystals as possible.''
(translated from french by Susanne Flatauer)

Ah yes, the"crystals" again, covered above.
Once again, the demolished 'Kula columns, "pillars", see above.

As is now predictable, Pon does not tell you what Filip Mueller really said.
from:
Paid 'holocaust' Enforcer & Promoter Roberto Muehlenkamp believes liar Filip Mueller proves the 'holocau$t':
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11350

Paid 'holocau$t' promoter & enforcer Roberto Muehlenkamp in attempting to support the impossible cremations as alleged within the impossible 'holocaust' narrative believes that this quote from Filip Mueller is proof of outdoor Auschwitz cremations, proof of the impossible '6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers'.

Roberto quoted Filip Mueller as saying:

As the heap of bodies settled, no air was able to get in from the outside. This meant that we stokers had constantly to pour oil or wood alcohol on the burning corpses, in addition to the human fat, large quantities of which had collected and was boiling in the two collecting pans on either side of the pit.

- Of course we have never seen any indication that there ever were massive outdoor cremation pits at Auschwitz as alleged by Mueller, which would be readily available if the hilarious lies were true.
'Sorry, no excavations allowed'.

And here's more on this liar Filip Mueller that Roberto Muehlenkamp hopes no one will notice:

Filip Mueller, whose laughable beststeller "Sonderbehandlung" Raul Hilberg quotes no less than 20 times as a source in his standard work about the "Holocaust", described how he ate cake in a cyanide-saturated gas chamber

- Mueller also said

...the 2 pits were 40 to 50 meters long, about 8 meters wide and meters deep....by digging a channel which sloped slightly to either side from the center point it would possible to catch the fat exuding from the corpses as they were burning in the pit, in 2 collecting pans at either end of the channel..

Lying nonsense, the fat would burn immediately, no evidence whatsoever for pits as alleged,

Mueller said:

...the sizzling fat was scooped out with buckets on a long curved rod and poured over the pit causing flames to leap up amid much crackling and hissing

Mueller also said:

... the powers that be had allocated twenty minutes for the cremation of 3 corpses....

It is impossible to cremate 3 bodies in 20 minutes.

Filip Mueller said:

The doctors proceeded to cut pieces of still warm flesh from thighs & calves and threw them into waiting receptacles. The muscles of those who had been shot were still working and contracting, making the bucket jump about

And, Mueller impossibly claimed that 10,000 were cremated daily in the ovens of Birkenau

Mueller said:

I noticed there were some small greenish-blue crystals lying on the concrete floor at the back of the room. They were scattered beneath an opening in the ceiling. A large fan was installed up there, its blades humming as they revolved.

There is no evidence for any "greenish-blue crystals", and the cyanide (Zyklon-B) story, while completely debunked by Revisionists, claims are that the gassing agent was dropped into 4 cage like wire mesh structures with no fans.

sources:
'Sonderbehandling', 'Eyewitness Auschwitz - Three Years in the Gas Chambers', by Filip Mueller.
also see: 'The Giant with Feet of Clay, Raul Hilberg....', by Juergen Graf.

more here:
viewtopic.php?t=95

Ah yes, Filip Mueller is proof of the 'holocaust', according the Roberto Muehenkamp and the shysters from the "Holocau$t Industry"

More to come on Industry spokesman, enforcer & comedian Roberto Muehlenkamp.
He embodies the essence of the clownish, irrational, & impossible 'holocaust' fraud.

This is too easy.

- Hannover

You will be arrested in 16 countries in Europe and in "that shitty little country" for exposing the lies of Filip Mueller.

much more:
Classic "eyewitness" contradictions / alleged 'holes' on gas chamber roof for Zyklon-B & more:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11447
and:
search.php?keywords=Filip+Mueller&fid%5B0%5D=2

- Hannover

The alleged Auschwitz homicidal gassing process reviewed and demolished here., must reading:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11143&p=83723&hilit=model+asmarques#p83723

[Hannover]

Pon says:

Then we have Michal Kula and Rudolf Hoess as well (as you know)

Once again, Kula's silliness has been decimated, see above.

As for Rudolf Hoess, Pon does not even say what Hoess said that supports his position.
No worries, we have the brutally tortured Rudolf Hoess's alleged statements covered
see:
search.php?keywords=rudolf+hoess+torture&fid%5B0%5D=2

- Hannover

The alleged Auschwitz homicidal gassing process reviewed and demolished here., must reading:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11143&p=83723&hilit=model+asmarques#p83723

[Lamprecht]

I am splitting this response off from the other thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12764

Any witness, be it the pope himself, is unreliable and will get details wrong, it's something to be expected of witnesses, the longer the time since the experience the more unreliable the memory gets, that doesn't mean that if a detail is wrong the entire statement is thrown out the window, I can see that you know even less about witnesses than I do, let this to the experts is my advice.

Yeah you haven't actually defined who you consider an "Expert" on this topic. Let me guess, an "expert" is someone who agrees with you?
And you have only misconstrued what I said. I never once claimed that a simple "mistake" should justify throwing out an entire testimony. For example, if someone says "I saw a guy shoot a cop, then leap over a 10 foot fence" but actually the person shot was a security guard, and the fence was 8 foot tall, he just made a mistake, probably.

But in the case of alleged eyewitnesses of "Homicidal gas chambers" at camps, of which there really are not very many, I don't think they made any "mistakes" I think they are total and complete liars. This is not surprising in the least, I personally think it's more believable that a handful of people were coerced to (or volunteered to) lie against their hated enemies. Why not? Lies are a dime a dozen. If you think, somehow, the fact that they stated these things in a "Court of law" (Actually, show trials) gives them credibility, you're mistaken.

Normally, a person would be afraid to lie in court because he could be charged with perjury. But what if there's no option for that? What if, in fact, lying was encouraged? Then why should we trust their lies? According to Jewish Auschwitz survivor, historian and Yad Vashem archives director, the majority of Jewish testimonies of the holocaust are "Unreliable": download/file.php?id=2167

Similarly, Jewish Professor Elisabeth Loftus has pointed out that "Holocaust" testimony is perhaps the least reliable testimony of all: https://codoh.com/library/document/932/

A lot of "Survivors" have actually been caught red-handed making it all up: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12677

There are eyewitness testimonies of "Gas chambers" at camps no historian claims had them: viewtopic.php?t=6984

Check out also:
Has any Jewish "Holocaust" witnesses been charged with perjury in a war crimes trial?
viewtopic.php?t=12762

I just don't understand why a person would think:
"It's totally believable that the Germans would shove millions of Jews into gas chambers to systematically exterminate them, but it's totally absurd to think that a handful of their former prisoners would be happy to invent atrocities as revenge after the fact, when there was no punishment (but, instead, encouragement) for doing so."

[Lamprecht]

First, I would like to point out that I have challenged Pon to explain a more efficient method of Zyklon-B gassings than the alleged 'wire mesh columns' he clings to. Here: viewtopic.php?p=94141#p94141
If he can not do this, then he is forced to admit that if someone was to lie and claim to have witnessed Zyklon-B gassings, and know something about the properties of the substance, they would most likely describe some sort of wire mesh columns. If someone was to lie about a massacre of tens of thousands of people, do you think that they would say that the weapons used were just pistols and knives? No, a person who lies wants it to at least appear credible. So, a testimony not being absolutely absurd doesn't necessarily lend it any credibility at all, although in the opposite case, where it is absurd (for example: defies the laws of physics) it certainly can't be credible.

Revisionists do not claim that all of the eyewitnesses in the camps are liars. Only a small percent (around 2 or 3, perhaps less) of the "Auschwitz" jewish eyewitnesses mention homicidal gassings at all. And although Pon has cherry picked a handful of testimonies that mention some sort of mesh column devices, a large number of these supposed "eyewitnesses" - including Sonderkommando who claimed to have seen the gas chamber rooms, mention absolutely nothing of the sort.

Additionally, Pon likes to argue that you cannot just dismiss a testimony if someone is caught in a lie, or as he says, a "mistake". So if someone says 5 jews were cremated in one oven muffle at Auschwitz, he was just "mistaken" on that but can still be trusted on his claims of gassings. I don't buy that at all, and it actually suggests that they are nothing but a liar. Fake or "unreliable" testimonies are far from rare, but are actually the norm in this situation; admitted by Yad Vashem archives director & Auschwitz survivor Shmuel Krakowski here: download/file.php?id=2167
Jewish professor Elizabeth Loftus discusses this here: viewtopic.php?t=8142
Her findings are also discussed in this series: https://codoh.com/library/series/1518/

Also, the idea that testimonies are somehow more credible because they were delivered at a trial is also fraudulent. Sure, in a normal trial in the modern USA, there may be some level of credibility given to testimony because the defense is allowed to use resources make their own case, and if "eyewitnesses" are caught lying they can be charged with perjury and imprisoned or fined. This is simply not the case in these "War crimes trials" which have been widely condemned by law experts all around the world. See the bottom of this post: viewtopic.php?p=94140#p94140

Historians universally acknowledge that eyewitness testimony is the weakest form of evidence, and that documentary evidence is superior, but physical evidence is by far the most conclusive. When it comes to the "Holocaust" this order is inverted. I will address some of Pon's alleged eyewitnesses in my next post(s)

[Lamprecht]

There are more testimonies of alien abductions, bigfoot, and witchcraft than Auschwitz gas chambers. But "Experts" - a word Pon can't define in this context, but still trusts their judgment and thinks that we should blindly do so as well - have claimed that Auschwitz gassings are real, but not sorcery, aliens or bigfoot. So, these supposed "eyewitness testimonies" are credible, but not the others listed. Hmmm...


Yehuda Bakon
Your quote on "Yehuda Bacon" (or Bakon) is from the Eichmann trial in the 1960s. Did he not have plenty of time to go around reading other testimonies to decide what to claim?

Bakon was deported to Auschwitz at only the age of 14, so we are trusting the memory (and, of course, honesty) of a teenager after many decades. Bakon's claims contradict Tauber and Kula's. He claims that the Leichenkeller 1 of Krema III was split into 2 sections, whereas Tauber states that this was the case for Krema II only. Additionally, his claim that they were "pipes" with "four iron columns surrounded by strong wire" contradicts Kula and Tauber. It's just a hodgepodge of these two and Nyiszli (who speaks of "square sheet-iron pipes").

In Bakon's drawings, the supposed 'chimney' in which the Zyklon-B pellets were supposedly poured into is missing, he claimed that the lid was resting directly onto the ceiling. And he claims to have personally witnessed it first-hand, and even going as far to claim he actually opened one and looked inside. He said that the holes were topped with wooden covers, but Tauber claimed that they were concrete lids. Instead of being killed for having allegedly witnessed all of this, Bakon was deported out of Auschwitz and was liberated at Gunskirchen camp.

Why should we believe this guy? The most likely scenario is that he read a few other people's testimonies and then tried to merge them all together by memory at the trial. Maybe he wrote down some notes. Was he adequately cross examined? Eichmann was prevented from having an adequate defense in this trial, more details can be given. But really, pointing out that it was in Israel, so the judge, jury and executioner were all the aggrieved party really explains it succinctly.

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Josef Erber
Ah, more "iron pipes", again contradicting Tauber. Anyway, this "Erber" is former SS-Sergeant Major Josef Houstek, who had changed his name to Josef Erber after serving at Auschwitz. This testimony is from 1981. Also, why didn't Pon first make it clear that Erber was imprisoned when he made these statements? Well, sometimes when people are imprisoned they will say or do anything they think will help get them released.

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Charles Sigismund Bendel
Hannover has already pointed out various absurdities in Bendel's statements. The same guy who says the Nazis packed the jews in like sardines and had to toss children over the heads of the rest just to pack them in. Yeah, very efficient, nobody would have panicked and tried to fight back, right?
"But he was just exaggerating! We can trust the rest" Pon will probably say. Bendel contradicts himself in many testimonies.

- Bendel said in June 1943 he was a Birkenau Sonderkommando, which he claims comprised 200 (or 900, depending on which testimony) men that helped exterminate Jews.

- He claims to have witnessed his first gassing in June 1944, of Jews from the Lodz ghetto. But the first convoy of Jews from Lodz arrived at Auschwitz in mid-August 1944.

- Bendel also contradicted himself at the Belsen Trial, by stating that he started work at Aushcwitz in August 1944.

- Bendel also claimed that the construction of Krema II and III began in March 1942, but they hadn't even taken bids on who would construct it until July 1942.

- Bendel said that the crematoriums were completed in January 1943 to honor Himmler, but crematoriums II and III were completed at the end of March and June 1943 respectively. And Himmler was not present for their openings

- Bendel claims crematoriums II and III each had 16 ovens, but they were actually 5 triple ovens so 15 total muffles. There's no way to get "16" out of triple muffles

- At the Belsen trial, Bendel said each crematorium had 2 gas chambers. But in his sworn declaration of 21 October 1945 he says there were only one in each crematorium

- Bendel said the gassings lasted two minutes, and it only took 5 minutes to ventilate. This is absurd and impossible. He also he doesn't even mention gas masks at all.

- Bendel also claimed that people who couldn't fit into the gas chambers were just executed right outside in the ditches. Yet the "official" story confirmed by Pon's "experts" says no such thing

One can go on and on about this man's tall tales. He is simply not a credible witness. He is a man filled with hate (justified or not) against those who imprisoned him, and felt compelled and justified in lying about them.


... more in another post ...

[Lamprecht]

Henryk Tauber
According to Pressac, who Pon has cited extensively, Tauber's testimony is "the best that exists on the Birkenau Krematorien."
At the Irving trial, the judgment said that Tauber's testimony "is so clear and detailed that, in my judgment, no objective historian would dismiss it as invention unless there were powerful reasons for doing so."
So this should not be simply waved away. But why is he considered credible?

Tauber claimed: "Generally speaking, we burned 4 or 5 corpses at a time in one muffle, but sometimes we charged a greater number of corpses. It was possible to charge up to 8"
Well, I don't really think that this is a mistake. It's just a lie; he's purposely saying something that is not true. That didn't happen, and could not have happened. Not that the technology to cremate multiple bodies at once was unheard of, it just wasn't installed at Auschwitz.
I pointed out a statement by Prüfer during his interrogation, where he confirms this. In response, Pon quoted Prüfer saying he witnessed gassings which, obviously, he had nothing to do with whatsoever. That will be addressed later, but the point of the matter is that Prüfer, who was quite ready to "admit" (or, rather, lie about) gas chambers stated that only one body could be cremated at a time, for reasons that the ovens couldn't handle the load. The muffles were not even large enough to hold 4 or 5 bodies. At best, two people could physically fit in the muffles; they were designed for individual cremations.

Tauber also claimed that corpses could be cremated without fuel, an impossibility. Additionally, he claimed that people were burned alive in the crematoria muffles.

Tauber claims to have witnessed Mengele at Auschwitz in March-April 1943, but he was not there. He claimed that 200 Sonderkommando were gassed in the delousing chamber at the "Kanada" section of Auschwitz as well, a total absurdity.

Tauber says, correctly, that three forced-draft devices of Crematorium II "were dismantled and the ducts taking the spent gases away from the crematorium ovens were connected directly to the chimney." Does that make him credible, because it is correct? Well, the truth is that this happened AFTER Tauber had left the Crematorium II (April) and was assigned to Crematorium IV so how would he have known this? Well, there documents detailing this, and the Soviets probably showed them to him.

Similarly, Tauber's claims about the Sonderkommando workforce were also clearly from documents provided to him by the Soviets. There are other examples of conjectures he provided based on recovered documents given to him and do not make sense in the context of an actual eyewitness, as in "I saw ____ happen myself".

Simply put: Tauber’s testimony is historically inconsistent, stuffed with outrageous propaganda stories, and technically nonsensical. Did you even read through these testimonies yourself, criticisms of them, and then decide he was credible? You mention him quite often. I think, rather, you just heard he was "credible" from the "expert" sources and determined therefore he is reliable. But, quite clearly, he is not.

Tauber is seen as credible because he was coaxed by others into giving his testimony, so it has more technical details that fit with the documents. But still there are various absurdities and errors in his testimony. Much more can be said about this hoaxter, but I would suggest searching "Tauber" in the search bar.

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Filip Mueller
Hannover has posted some damning points about this guy, but I have more. Mueller admitted himself to have read a "a large amount of literature" on the so-called "Holocaust" so he was certainly familiar with many other testimonies. And he also waited until 1979 to publish his detailed "testimony" on the topic. Mattogno has exposed him as a plagiarist, liar and fraud:

Auschwitz: A case of plagiarism
https://codoh.com/library/document/2274/

And more recently:
The Lies, Slips, Bungles and Perjuries of Filip Mueller, Professional Witness of Auschwitz-Birkenau
https://codoh.com/library/document/635/

Not much more really needs to be said, really. This is just not a case of "different individuals independently testifying about the same thing" as Pon suggests, but Müller just read a bunch of other testimonies and wrote his own "memoir" mixing up their claims together. If someone says a lie and 10 other people repeat it, that doesn't make it any more credible.

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Michael Kula
Yes, Kula was not originally a very frequently cited testimony, but because of his "Wire-net push-in devices" claim he was, in recent decades, given an elevated role. I have already pointed out that he claimed 70x70 cm wide columns, which wouldn't fit in the holes alleged, and he in fact claimed to have built them so probably would have known the actual size. You call it a "mistake". OK...

Kula also testified at the trial held against the Auschwitz camp garrison, just a few months after the Hoess trial. He didn't mention any sort of "wire mesh columns" - the ones that he allegedly built himself - at all. Instead, he claimed that:
"Then they began to build gigantic crematoria. They were set up so that the victims could not understand where they were taken. Each crematorium had two gas chambers, one for 1,500 and one for 2,000 people. There was a special concrete ski-jump [skocznie, probably meaning chute] on which the people were dumped from the truck, [whose load bed] tipped automatically, and in this way the people were falling into the gas chambers."

Such a thing is nonsense, can't be a "mistake" and is quite obviously contradicted by every other testimony. And no mention whatsoever of the columns, why? It's almost as if he just made this silliness all up as revenge against those evil people who kept him as a prisoner...

Kula also said that after gassing, the corpses "had a greenish color. The nurses told me that the corpses were cracked, and the skin came off."
Yet, corpses killed with cyanide have a very bright, cherry-red/pink color. The scientific literature is quite conclusive on this. And their skin doesn't disintegrate and peel off. This, once again, isn't a "mistake" it's just a lie, nobody can make that mistake.

Kula claimed that every three months the Sonderkommando had "been gassed not in Auschwitz but somewhere in the vicinity of Gleiwitz."
Hm? But why were so many spared then? Why wasn't he killed, or any of the other Sonderkommando "Gas chamber" witnesses that managed to live and tell the tale?

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Rudolf Hoess
Ah, quite boring. Hoess was tortured and his testimony is not even considered credible by various Holocaust "experts" as you would call them. Certianly not an example of someone who just independently came out as an eyewitness. He was, well, rather coerced into making these statements. In a normal court of law, "confessions" obtained under duress are not considered reliable at all. The reasoning is, a guy who is tortured (and, in this case, his son threatened to be sent to Siberia) will say just about anything. Hence why Hoess "admitted" to various things that are not considered true today. I don't really think Hoess described any sort of "mesh columns" either, he said things like "induction vents" or "Einwurfschacht" (throw-in shaft) from what I have read. No mention of wire-mesh columns at all.

Exterminationist Mark Roseman: "Both Rudolf Hoess's and Eichmann's testimonies lack credibility." (Roseman, Mark (2002) "The Wannsee Conference and the Final Solution: A Reconsideration")

A book on the subject:
(PDF) Commandant of Auschwitz—Rudolf Höss, His Torture and His Forced Confessions
https://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/35-coa.pdf

Some threads on Hoess:

Wyatt admits to torture of Hoess; claims he's a reliable source despite "no evidence" for the absurd claims
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12725

Auschwitz Commandant Hoess 'confessions' debunked in review
viewtopic.php?t=2429

The Confessions of Rudolf Hoess
viewtopic.php?t=2656

[Lamprecht]

Kurt Prüfer:

Q. Were you the sole Topf engineer in Auschwitz in spring 1943?

A. No, [senior engineer Karl] Schultze was with me in Auschwitz at the time. I saw personally about 60 corpses of women and men of different ages, which were being prepared for incineration. That was at 10 in the morning. I witnessed the incineration of six corpses and and came to the conclusion that the furnaces were working well.

Q. Did you see a gas chamber next to the crematoriums?

A. Yes, I did see one next to the crematorium. Between the gas chamber and the crematorium there was a connecting structure.

Q. Did you know that in the gas chamber and in the crematoriums there took place the liquidation of innocent human beings?

A. I have known since spring 1943 that innocent human beings were being liquidated in Auschwitz gas chambers and that their corpses were subsequently incinerated in the crematoriums.

Q. Who is the designer of the ventilation systems for the gas chambers?

A. Schultze was the designer of the ventilation systems in the gas chambers; and he installed them.

Q. Why was the brick lining of the muffles so quickly damaged?

A. The bricks were damaged after six months because the strain on the furnaces was colossal.

Ah, yes, so he "admits" to gassings, which had nothing to do with him. However, there is more to it: According to the "official" story made by the "experts" as you call them, the Birkenau crematorium were not being used to gas and cremate Jews at this time. Actually, it is alleged that so-called "Bunker 1" and "bunker 2" or "Red house" and "White house" were being used to gas Jews, until the crematoria were built.

Pruefer also stated:
"I saw a gas chamber from the outside; There was a wooden barrack; from here there was a connection with the gas chamber; from the gas chamber there was a connection with the crematorium" (In the original: "schol derevjannyj barak, ot nego bylo soobschchenie s gaskameroi, ot gaskamery bylo soobschschenie s krematoriem")

So, there was a "connecting structure" between the gas chamber and the crematorium and between the gas chamber and a wooden hut. Did the examiner speak of one of the two "bunkers"?
According to Prüfer, the gas chamber was outside the crematorium, just as the Smersch officer had suggested with his question ("next to the crematoriums"). Accordingly, it can not have been any of the gas chambers allegedly installed in the crematoria. The farmhouses are said to have been 550 or 900 meters away from the Crematoria II and III, which he clearly is not even describing at all since the gas chambers were underground.

Pruefer had to agree with the leitmotif of the indictment that the crematoria for the destruction of innocent people, that is to say, had been built for mass murder. These sorts of "Confessions" are quite meaningless given this context.
His descriptions of the alleged gas chambers are completely at odds with the standard story, they are not even close... He basically just says "yes, indeed, gas chamber" to get them off his ass. His claims are so at odds with the official story, which you claim is truth, that it is obvious that he is improvising here to placate his interrogator.

Karl Schultze was responsible for introducing an air-injection system into the furnaces, this is what enabled the furnaces to get so hot and subsequently also burn several bodies at once. The attempt to burn to bodies at once was obviously improved upon. This would be a obvious way to burn bodies faster given enough heat. The ovens and chimneys were repaired plenty of times due to the strain (there was also probably chimney fires because of this, as witnesses has reported fire and smoke bulging out of the chimneys, which would not normally be seen in these kind of chimneys).

There was no burning multiple bodies at once; except maybe two children. Using excessive heat would have damaged the brickwork, and as you admit it was damaged many of times. Those periods when they were repaired was time out of commission.

As for the fires, that is highly doubtful. Some "eyewitness testimony" even claims the smoke from the chimney changed color based off of the nationality of those who were burned. I wouldn't believe in such absurd things if I was you. Check out my recent thread on cremations:

Auschwitz cremation ovens and the "four-story continuous operation corpse incineration oven" never built
viewtopic.php?t=12778

Also, of course, no one can ignore the elephant in the room, that he mentions the gas chambers, which also schultze does (although he thought they were only used for criminals).

You say "THE gas chambers" but the real elephant in the room is that the alleged 'gas chambers' he mentions do not correspond to any actual gas chambers alleged to be used to kill Jews at the camps. Let me guess, it was a "mistake"
He told his interrogators what they wanted to hear. It's not rocket science.

Maybe I'll start a different thread at some point, there's already two other threads started that wants me to respond, I'll have to decide how much time I want to devote to this particular matter. The matter was also brought up in the Irving vs Deborah trial, so there's a lot more information about it, I remember that they explained that the bodies would self-combust when the heat had reached a certain point and that they used several bodies, as it was a trial setting you can bet that evidence was brought up to support the claim.

How much do you want to bet, Pon?
Prüfer, who you think is credible because he said "gas chambers" said that the furnaces couldn't handle two bodies at once.
I am not sure what "Evidence" you will have. Certainly it will not be calculations. Probably a document [forgery] that claims some ability to defy the laws of physics.