http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkere ... g2-3.shtml
http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkere ... t3-3.shtml
I need a revisionist perspective on the above websites which is comprehensive as possible. I am involved in a forum discussion on the Holocaust, and the above websites are cited claiming that the SS labour deployment reports depicted there for the Auschwitz-Birkenau crematoriums show that up to 900 sonderkommando were employed, supposedly demonstrating that in the summer and fall of 1944, when there were no epidemics in the camp, that there was mass extermination of the Jews taking place.
Now, as far as these SS labour deployment reports are concerned, I do not speak German, so that I really do not know what is said in them. Secondly, it would seem to me rather strange that if there was serious mass extermination by means of homocidal gas chambers taking place, that the Germans would take the trouble to make detailed reports about such matters, which, of course, would be incriminating evidence.
If it is possible I would like the revisionists who post in this forum to give me the benefit of their information in this matter, if it is not too much trouble, to help me refute, if possible, the exterminationists I am debating. I intend to do as much research as I can on this matter, but if someone else has the relevant information at their fingertips then it would be appreciated.
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Much ado about nothing.
The fact is, by August 2 there would have been no need for large scale exterminations, even if they were going on. The last Hungarians would have arrived a month earlier, and the 100 K or so from Lodz and other Polish camps came later, from the beginning of September.
So why so many? One clue comes from the fact that all four crematoria have 200 man crews, one day, one night. There is no decent evidence that K IV or even K V were in operation at this time, and these crematoria were only half the size of K II and K III. There's no reason why the two types of crematoria would have the same size shifts if this was not a purely arbitary allocation of labor.
Furthermore, every time aerial photos were taken it shows that no exterminations were going on: that means these 900 guys must have had a lot of time on their hands. One thing is certain, they weren't in the crematoria doing anything particularly technical, since there's only 1-3 expert workers per shift.
One excuse that is made is that the extra guys at K IV and K V were out burning bodies in pits. However, the aerial photos do not show the claimed enormous pits.
Frankly, this looks like a case of hidden unemployment. Especially so, when we see on closer inspection that 400+ people are employed at the disinfection complex at Auschwitz I. That's a lot of people for that location, too.
The document also claims that NINE THOUSAND prisoners are employed. How much work was there to do at Birkenau, anyway? Further, the document lists THREE THOUSAND unemployed, and another TWO THOUSAND who are in quarantine, in hospital, or whatever. Why are these categories of prisoners here? Weren't those unable to work said to have been gassed?
There's just nothing there, it's laughable.
- Hannover
The fact is, by August 2 there would have been no need for large scale exterminations, even if they were going on. The last Hungarians would have arrived a month earlier, and the 100 K or so from Lodz and other Polish camps came later, from the beginning of September.
So why so many? One clue comes from the fact that all four crematoria have 200 man crews, one day, one night. There is no decent evidence that K IV or even K V were in operation at this time, and these crematoria were only half the size of K II and K III. There's no reason why the two types of crematoria would have the same size shifts if this was not a purely arbitary allocation of labor.
Furthermore, every time aerial photos were taken it shows that no exterminations were going on: that means these 900 guys must have had a lot of time on their hands. One thing is certain, they weren't in the crematoria doing anything particularly technical, since there's only 1-3 expert workers per shift.
One excuse that is made is that the extra guys at K IV and K V were out burning bodies in pits. However, the aerial photos do not show the claimed enormous pits.
Frankly, this looks like a case of hidden unemployment. Especially so, when we see on closer inspection that 400+ people are employed at the disinfection complex at Auschwitz I. That's a lot of people for that location, too.
The document also claims that NINE THOUSAND prisoners are employed. How much work was there to do at Birkenau, anyway? Further, the document lists THREE THOUSAND unemployed, and another TWO THOUSAND who are in quarantine, in hospital, or whatever. Why are these categories of prisoners here? Weren't those unable to work said to have been gassed?
There's just nothing there, it's laughable.
- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.
I have been through extensive exchanges with Mr.Keren about the alleged documents which show some 900 "Stokers" which would be the Jewish workers involved with the process of mass extermination. He gets quite upset with the challenges.
About the documents:
They are supposed to be examples of daily work sheets. Like how many are needed for mess duty or how many to dig drainage ditches or such. Then in among the list we get the 900 "stokers".
Mr.Keren only has two of them. Two days out of some 500 or 600 that should be, considering the time the camp was in operation. He says that the Auschwitz Museum archives has more. Not all of them, just maybe some 20 or 30.
The documents are a good example of how Holocaust 'evidence' comes about. They, persons involved with framing the story found real records and then got the idea to forge some with their own 'modification'.
Of course forging some 500 or 600 documents would be very time consuming and risky.
So they come up with two (2).
What happened to the rest that should be? How is it they only have two (2) when there should be hundreds?
Who found them?
When were they found?
Where were they found?
Where are the originals today?
The evidence that the Germans left behind just about everything, including the plans for the crematoriums and the photographic documentation of them as they were being constructed is overwhelming. That would include all the daily work sheets.
Then we would have it as a contradiction to the claims that say the Germans didn't make a record of any mass exterminations. Hundreds of work sheets listing hundreds of stokers would be a huge record.
Someone(s) found the full file of work sheets then got the witty idea to forge some (2) with 900 Stokers inserted.
Oh how pat it all is.
About the documents:
They are supposed to be examples of daily work sheets. Like how many are needed for mess duty or how many to dig drainage ditches or such. Then in among the list we get the 900 "stokers".
Mr.Keren only has two of them. Two days out of some 500 or 600 that should be, considering the time the camp was in operation. He says that the Auschwitz Museum archives has more. Not all of them, just maybe some 20 or 30.
The documents are a good example of how Holocaust 'evidence' comes about. They, persons involved with framing the story found real records and then got the idea to forge some with their own 'modification'.
Of course forging some 500 or 600 documents would be very time consuming and risky.
So they come up with two (2).
What happened to the rest that should be? How is it they only have two (2) when there should be hundreds?
Who found them?
When were they found?
Where were they found?
Where are the originals today?
The evidence that the Germans left behind just about everything, including the plans for the crematoriums and the photographic documentation of them as they were being constructed is overwhelming. That would include all the daily work sheets.
Then we would have it as a contradiction to the claims that say the Germans didn't make a record of any mass exterminations. Hundreds of work sheets listing hundreds of stokers would be a huge record.
Someone(s) found the full file of work sheets then got the witty idea to forge some (2) with 900 Stokers inserted.
Oh how pat it all is.
100 stokers per shift, per Krema?
And so?
Stokers shovel coke into the furnace. That is their job. I don’t see any connection to homicidal gassing. The hoaxers suffer from a "Freudian Lapsus", they morphed the cramatorium into a gas chamber, therefore in their mind anything connected with the crema is also about homicidal gassing. They should consult a shrink.
And with a maximum capacity of 400 cremations per day for Krema II, even a million stokers could not change this. (A pump with 100 gallon per hour capacity will not change its capacity, no matter how many operators stand in front of it.).
Stokers may have been used for all kinds of tasks around the Krema: besides shovelling coke, hauling coke, helping the muffle operators, hauling bodies inside the crematorium, cleaning up, etc.
Labor was cheap, so overstaffing was no big matter. And forced laborers in those camps were not exactly known for being hard and efficient workers, as is documented.
And to cremate hundreds of thousands of bodies in open pits, half full of water, with a groundwater level of up to a foot below ground, and no documents for the tens of thousands of trainloads with fire wood necessary for open air cremation, even my old grandmother would shake her head, and she was a believing old lady.
fge
And so?
Stokers shovel coke into the furnace. That is their job. I don’t see any connection to homicidal gassing. The hoaxers suffer from a "Freudian Lapsus", they morphed the cramatorium into a gas chamber, therefore in their mind anything connected with the crema is also about homicidal gassing. They should consult a shrink.
And with a maximum capacity of 400 cremations per day for Krema II, even a million stokers could not change this. (A pump with 100 gallon per hour capacity will not change its capacity, no matter how many operators stand in front of it.).
Stokers may have been used for all kinds of tasks around the Krema: besides shovelling coke, hauling coke, helping the muffle operators, hauling bodies inside the crematorium, cleaning up, etc.
Labor was cheap, so overstaffing was no big matter. And forced laborers in those camps were not exactly known for being hard and efficient workers, as is documented.
And to cremate hundreds of thousands of bodies in open pits, half full of water, with a groundwater level of up to a foot below ground, and no documents for the tens of thousands of trainloads with fire wood necessary for open air cremation, even my old grandmother would shake her head, and she was a believing old lady.
fge
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alpha
Hello Comrade Seinfeld
I'm sceptical that you will have success in refuting these exterminationists with the information provided in this thread.
For instance, they told you "by August 2 there would have been no need for large scale exterminations". This is not true. There was large scale extermination going on in Auschwitz around early August (from Italy, Greek, Radom, Blizyn, Puskow...)
Further this is also irrelevant. The number of Sonderkommandos was increased to 900 for the Hungarian Operation and this operation was just finished for two, three weeks by August 2. It is obvious that, due to their special and secret task and their knowledge about the extermination, that the SS couldn't transfer the Sonderkommando prisoners elsewhere or simply kill them once their task was finished. The Sonderkommando revolt in October proved what Sonderkommando liquidations could cause. Thus it doesn't matter if there was any large scale extermination by August 2. The Sonderkommando strength of August 2 was the result of the largest extermination ever carried out in Auschwitz, the extermination of the Hungarian Jews not selected for labour, and this operation fully justifies this Sonderkommando strength.
And you are told by the same poster that the documents mean nothing, it's laughable.
But then why does the next poster tries to suggest you that the documents were forged???
So at 8:13 pm the document meant nothing, just hidden unemployment (laughable!), 6 minutes later it was a forgery, and both claims are contradicting each other and are incompatible!
Good luck, comrade!
I'm sceptical that you will have success in refuting these exterminationists with the information provided in this thread.
For instance, they told you "by August 2 there would have been no need for large scale exterminations". This is not true. There was large scale extermination going on in Auschwitz around early August (from Italy, Greek, Radom, Blizyn, Puskow...)
Further this is also irrelevant. The number of Sonderkommandos was increased to 900 for the Hungarian Operation and this operation was just finished for two, three weeks by August 2. It is obvious that, due to their special and secret task and their knowledge about the extermination, that the SS couldn't transfer the Sonderkommando prisoners elsewhere or simply kill them once their task was finished. The Sonderkommando revolt in October proved what Sonderkommando liquidations could cause. Thus it doesn't matter if there was any large scale extermination by August 2. The Sonderkommando strength of August 2 was the result of the largest extermination ever carried out in Auschwitz, the extermination of the Hungarian Jews not selected for labour, and this operation fully justifies this Sonderkommando strength.
And you are told by the same poster that the documents mean nothing, it's laughable.
But then why does the next poster tries to suggest you that the documents were forged???
So at 8:13 pm the document meant nothing, just hidden unemployment (laughable!), 6 minutes later it was a forgery, and both claims are contradicting each other and are incompatible!
Good luck, comrade!
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alpha
Sailor wrote:100 stokers per shift, per Krema?
And so?
Stokers shovel coke into the furnace. That is their job.
And they needed 100 stokers to shovel the coke into 3 five muffel ovens???? So 33 stokers shoveling for 1 oven!
ROTLF!
Back to reality. The crematoria wouldn't need more than 10, 20 stokers, wouldn't they? So what did the other 80, 90 guys do?
Well, that perfectly fits and strongly supports the "exterminationists":
they were getting the clothes of the victims to "Kanada", searching the victims' belongings for valuables, breaking out the teeth of the victims and searching body orifices for valuables, carrying the bodies to the pits, to the ovens, adding combustion substances, collecting fuel for the pits in the forest, hacking wood, hacking large pieces of wood delivered by the transportation trains, mashing remains and ashes of the victims, collecting and getting rid of ashes, cleaning the gas chambers, preparing food for the members of the Sonderkommando, taking care of injured or sick members of the Sonderkommando etc.
In other words, the 900 "stokers" were the Jewish Sonderkommando, who helped to operate the killing facilities in Auschwitz. Typical for the SS, there existence was camouflaged in these labour force reports as "stokers", and this is reasonable, and not as gas-chamber detail, as a forger would put it.
The documents strongly support the eyewitness accounts of Müller, Feinsilber, Tauber and Nyiszli, who have mentioned a Sonderkommando strengths of 900/1000. And corroborating evidence makes witnesses credible.
And with a maximum capacity of 400 cremations per day for Krema II
Has Sailor built and tested the Topf ovens or where does he know for sure that its maximum capacity was 400 cremations per day?
Due to simultanous cremation of corpses and the introduction of new corpses before the cremation was completed, as numerous witnesses have observed, the cremation capacity was presumably much higher.
And to cremate hundreds of thousands of bodies in open pits, half full of water, with a groundwater level of up to a foot below ground,
Any evidence or proof for the ground water claims, except documents dating from 1943 about the Sauna and speculative estimations by certain revisionists?
and no documents for the tens of thousands of trainloads with fire wood necessary for open air cremation,
Attached to the trains were wagons with wood. And of course, the method used in Auschwitz, the cremation of many corpses in pits, saved a lot of fuel.
Alpha thinks that large numbers of people on a list meant they were actually engaged in mass murder, hence he ignores...from my post:
Then he contradicts the very story itself by claiming 'large scale gassings' in a period when the story doesn't even claim it; the alleged & unsubstantiated gassings themselves during this period would have not required as many people as were on this list....oops, so much for the list. Can the believers ever keep their stories straight?
Alpha cites Henryk Tauber as reliable, but ignores this debunking of Tauber, the liar, here:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=17
Alpha cites "eyewitness" Nyiszli, but ignores the debunking of this liar here:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=79
Alpha goes into denial about an empirical fact that the groundwater at Auschitz would never allow such cremations 'pit's as alleged without filling with water...ouch, he can provide nothing to buttress his denial of physical fact.
Alpha provides zero evidence for the trains, while loaded with workers enroute to Auschwitz/Birkenau, also carried massive quantities of wood. Where did this massive amount of wood come from? Laughable indeed.
see here: http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=34
Alpha ignores the statement by the builder of the crematoriums (SS Kurt Prufer) when Prufer stated that multiple cremations per muffle would cause damage to the ovens...oops.
He claims some magical capabilities of fuel efficiencey without ever saying how this magic was achieved, much less where the physical remains are, where the alleged massive pits are, why the wartime aerial photos do not show what has been alleged.
Alpha fails to explain the absurd allegations of 10,000-20,000 (Tauber & Nyiszli) cremated daily, when at most, about 35 ovens were ever working simultaneously...oh yes, Tauber claimed a human body could be cremated in 5-7 minutes...ouch! A classic 'eyewitness' lie.
- Hannover
"... we see on closer inspection that 400+ people are employed at the disinfection complex at Auschwitz I. That's a lot of people for that location, too.
The document also claims that NINE THOUSAND prisoners are employed. How much work was there to do at Birkenau, anyway? Further, the document lists THREE THOUSAND unemployed, and another TWO THOUSAND who are in quarantine, in hospital, or whatever. Why are these categories of prisoners here? Weren't those unable to work said to have been gassed?
Then he contradicts the very story itself by claiming 'large scale gassings' in a period when the story doesn't even claim it; the alleged & unsubstantiated gassings themselves during this period would have not required as many people as were on this list....oops, so much for the list. Can the believers ever keep their stories straight?
Alpha cites Henryk Tauber as reliable, but ignores this debunking of Tauber, the liar, here:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=17
Alpha cites "eyewitness" Nyiszli, but ignores the debunking of this liar here:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=79
Alpha goes into denial about an empirical fact that the groundwater at Auschitz would never allow such cremations 'pit's as alleged without filling with water...ouch, he can provide nothing to buttress his denial of physical fact.
Alpha provides zero evidence for the trains, while loaded with workers enroute to Auschwitz/Birkenau, also carried massive quantities of wood. Where did this massive amount of wood come from? Laughable indeed.
see here: http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=34
Alpha ignores the statement by the builder of the crematoriums (SS Kurt Prufer) when Prufer stated that multiple cremations per muffle would cause damage to the ovens...oops.
He claims some magical capabilities of fuel efficiencey without ever saying how this magic was achieved, much less where the physical remains are, where the alleged massive pits are, why the wartime aerial photos do not show what has been alleged.
Alpha fails to explain the absurd allegations of 10,000-20,000 (Tauber & Nyiszli) cremated daily, when at most, about 35 ovens were ever working simultaneously...oh yes, Tauber claimed a human body could be cremated in 5-7 minutes...ouch! A classic 'eyewitness' lie.
- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.
Should the '900 stokers' mention be seen as genuine, a misprint, or a forgery? Firstly, it would be strange if the Germans had gone to such great lengths to keep the alleged gassing process undocumented and then blew it by naming 900 stokers on a worksheet. Apparently the high-priced Lipstadt Holocaust defense team didn't put much stock in the document as I don't recall it being raised during the Irving libel suit, when the Holocaust promotion lobbiests unfurled all of what they considered to be their heavy artillery. Leaving aside the fact that the 900 figure may be a simple misprint, does 900 stokers point more towards the mass murder process as alleged or towards a forgery? There were 50 muffles for cremation at Auschwitz, not all of which were operational at any given time. The muffles were of standard design aimed at consuming one corpse at a time - not what one might guess would be the design of crematoria constructed for a mass extermination process - but in any case several bodies were supposedly stuffed into each space depending upon which Holocaust eyewitness one choses to believe. One 'stoker' would have been sufficient to throw in the corpses, even when one considers the super-fast Holocaust cremation rates. One more stoker would have sufficed to throw the coal in, especially when one considers the super-efficient Holocaust body-burning process. So with 50 muffles, that would require 100 men per shift - 300 hundred per day based upon an 8 hour shift or 200 per day based upon a 12 hour shift. What were the other 600 doing? Tripping over each other? Some more may have been required for maintenance and for keeping the coal coming and ashes leaving, but 600? So the 900 figure appears to be way too high even if the events occurred as alleged. On the other hand, if somebody was wanting to doctor a document in order to make it look like a mass extermination had taken place....
[When I wrote the above I wondered what the exterminationist explanation might be for so many stokers, and surmised it would probably be that the "stokers" were actually engaged in every aspect of the alleged extermination process. Upon callling up the thread to post, I see that Alpha has indeed provided that explanation. So apparently "stoker" was really a euphemism for "sonderkommando" which was really a euphemism for "Jew involved in mass extermination process". The Holocaust story is known for its euphemisms but this is the first three-layered once I've come across.]
[When I wrote the above I wondered what the exterminationist explanation might be for so many stokers, and surmised it would probably be that the "stokers" were actually engaged in every aspect of the alleged extermination process. Upon callling up the thread to post, I see that Alpha has indeed provided that explanation. So apparently "stoker" was really a euphemism for "sonderkommando" which was really a euphemism for "Jew involved in mass extermination process". The Holocaust story is known for its euphemisms but this is the first three-layered once I've come across.]
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comrade seinfeld
- Member
- Posts: 114
- Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2002 8:27 pm
alpha wrote:/quote]alpha wrote:Hello Comrade Seinfeld
I'm sceptical that you will have success in refuting these exterminationists with the information provided in this thread.
For instance, they told you "by August 2 there would have been no need for large scale exterminations". This is not true. There was large scale extermination going on in Auschwitz around early August (from Italy, Greek, Radom, Blizyn, Puskow...)
Further this is also irrelevant. The number of Sonderkommandos was increased to 900 for the Hungarian Operation and this operation was just finished for two, three weeks by August 2. It is obvious that, due to their special and secret task and their knowledge about the extermination, that the SS couldn't transfer the Sonderkommando prisoners elsewhere or simply kill them once their task was finished. The Sonderkommando revolt in October proved what Sonderkommando liquidations could cause. Thus it doesn't matter if there was any large scale extermination by August 2. The Sonderkommando strength of August 2 was the result of the largest extermination ever carried out in Auschwitz, the extermination of the Hungarian Jews not selected for labour, and this operation fully justifies this Sonderkommando strength.
And you are told by the same poster that the documents mean nothing, it's laughable.
But then why does the next poster tries to suggest you that the documents were forged???
So at 8:13 pm the document meant nothing, just hidden unemployment (laughable!), 6 minutes later it was a forgery, and both claims are contradicting each other and are incompatible!
Good luck, comrade!
Thank you for taking the trouble to reply to my initial post. Certainly you are no revisionist, but I cannot stress too strongly that I am not a revisionist myself, but am an agnostic in relation to most aspects of the Holocaust. Certainly I have great respect for what the revisionists have to say; but I am also very well aware that those, like yourself, called "exterminationists" (I would say, just, anti-revisionists), are, quite possibly, substantially correct; for instance, even if there were no homocidal gas chambers at Auschwitz, the whole business seems to have been quite bloody, especially in relation to the efforts of the Einsatzgruppen an the Order Police in the Soviet Union, so that it is all possibly just a matter of degree ultimately, not to mention that the inmates of the concentration camps were quite unreasonably exposed to the risk of death through disease, starvation, overwork, etc.
However, I have a very strong interest in determining whether what the revisionists are telling us is substantially correct, since I strongly suspect that we are being lied to in respect of the Holocaust, especially since it has strong historical connections to the the viability of the "Zionist entity", Israel. I have strong memories, indeed, of the Vietnam war days, when, quite clearly, we were lied to in many ways, especially where it involved professional historians, so that it is really important not to take the conventional Holocaust narrative for granted -- and the same apparently applies today in regard to the plans for an invasion of Iraq, particularly when it is all bound up with the American support for the Zionist project and the need for unlimited oil supplies.
As an anti-revisonist it is certainly good for you to see fit to post in this forum, as it only through vigorous debate that we can arrive at the truth. It would be sad to think that you or anyone else would be censored in this forum for being anti-revisionists, and I sure it is not the intention of those who run this forum to limit debate, especially since this would mean that this forum would just become stale and boring. Assuming for the sake of argument that those who run this forum simply want to whitewash Hitler and the Nazis (as those who are anti-revisionists often unjustly suggest!), then their aims would best be served by promoting debate, since this would surely would be likely to create doubts in the minds of those who at present accept the conventional Holocaust narrative -- I really do not have any idea what are the motives of those who run this forum, and I don't especially care, provided they allow vigorous debate. Thus, I don't think that you or any other anti-revisionist should have any trouble posting in this forum provided that you are courteous and avoid personalites, and simply stick to arguing about the perceived historical facts in a reasonable fashion.
Incidentally, as an anti-revisionist, I wonder if you could answer my point in my initial post in this thread that the Germans at Auschwitz-Birkenau would have been very stupid to include incriminating evidence in their work deployment reports which would emphasize an excessive number of stokers, indicating, perhaps, a homocidal intent. We are generally told that the Germans went to great trouble to cover up their extermination activities, so why on earth would they be so stupid as to make publicly available such information?
My main problem in regard to the Holocaust debate is that I do not own my own computer technology, although in the near future I might be able to achieve this provided the particular legal litigation I am involved in at present for several years goes my way. As a result in the city in which I live I have to rely on the computer facilities at particular universities, and council and State libraries, all of which is very frustrating as I am likely to get banned by using the computers contrary to the rules for access in my zeal, and, also by the fact that I am always being blocked in regard to my ability to ultilize Usenet and email sites.
Interesting post, some good points.
Thoughts:
- there was a war on, many people died, Jews suffered relatively less than most others...why is it that any Jew's deaths is supposed to be an indication of the so called 'holcaust', while other deaths were just too bad?
- the absurd assertions about the 1-2 mil. murders by the Einsatzgruppen are unsubstantiated, completely...start a thread on it if curious...or search the Forum...plenty of info.
- The Order Police? How many do you attribute to them?...your evdence please...a separate thread would be best
- I only know of about 3 people who have been booted from this Forum and the previous Air-Photo Forum, 2 Believers, 1 Revisionist...the guidelines say it all...can't follow them then too bad... pretty simple really
Hannover
Thoughts:
- there was a war on, many people died, Jews suffered relatively less than most others...why is it that any Jew's deaths is supposed to be an indication of the so called 'holcaust', while other deaths were just too bad?
- the absurd assertions about the 1-2 mil. murders by the Einsatzgruppen are unsubstantiated, completely...start a thread on it if curious...or search the Forum...plenty of info.
- The Order Police? How many do you attribute to them?...your evdence please...a separate thread would be best
- I only know of about 3 people who have been booted from this Forum and the previous Air-Photo Forum, 2 Believers, 1 Revisionist...the guidelines say it all...can't follow them then too bad... pretty simple really
Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.
alpha wrote:For instance, they told you "by August 2 there would have been no need for large scale exterminations". This is not true. There was large scale extermination going on in Auschwitz around early August (from Italy, Greek, Radom, Blizyn, Puskow...)
And how would you know this? Is it Danuta?
alpha wrote: […]that the SS couldn't transfer the Sonderkommando prisoners elsewhere or simply kill them once their task was finished. The Sonderkommando revolt in October proved what Sonderkommando liquidations could cause.
Nonsense! If the SS wanted to exterminate the Sonderkommandos they would have.
The Sonderkommando strength of August 2 was the result of the largest extermination ever carried out in Auschwitz, the extermination of the Hungarian Jews not selected for labour,
Says who?
But then why does the next poster tries to suggest you that the documents were forged???
Different posters have usually different opinions.
And they needed 100 stokers to shovel the coke into 3 five muffel ovens???? So 33 stokers shoveling for 1 oven! ROTLF!
There were actually five 3-muffle ovens.
Labor was cheap. Forced laborers were not exavtly working their butt off. And there were many tasks besides shovelling coke into the furnaces: hauling coke, cleaning up, moving bodies around, helping the muffle operators, transporting bodies into the muffles, cleaning the furnaces and muffle bins, retsrting the furnaces.
Well, that perfectly fits and strongly supports the "exterminationists":
they were getting the clothes[…]
That is sheer hoaxer rubbish
Has Sailor built and tested the Topf ovens or where does he know for sure that its maximum capacity was 400 cremations per day?
Sailor read the Russian protocoll of Prüfer's interrogation by SMERSCH They are stored in the Russian Archive of the Secret Service in Moscow, in Folder N-19262, Case 1719 . On March 5, 1946 Prüfer was interrogated by captain Schatanowski and major Moruschenko, and he stated that it took to cremate one body 1 hour/muffle. This comes to 20 bodies per day per muffle, with 15 muffle = 300 bodies, rounded up to 400 to cover children.
In other words, the 900 "stokers" were the Jewish Sonderkommando, who helped to operate the killing facilities in Auschwitz. Typical for the SS, there existence was camouflaged in these labour force reports as "stokers", and this is reasonable, and not as gas-chamber detail, as a forger would put it.
The Auschwitz camp was a transfer camp and a camp for the older inmates, the sick, children and those unable to work. The labor force in the camp was necessary for the operation and maintenance of the camp.
Any evidence or proof for the ground water claims, except documents dating from 1943 about the Sauna and speculative estimations by certain revisionists?
Yes. Read van Pelt's Auschwitz book. Also:
Grundwasser im Gelände des KGL Birkenau (Auschwitz)
by Dipl.-Ing. Michael Gärtner and Dipl.-Ing. Werner Rademacher
http://vho.org/VffG/1998/1/GaeRad1.html
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Hebden
- Valued contributor
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Re: Information required
comrade seinfeld wrote:http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/cremation/aug2-3.shtml
http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkere ... t3-3.shtml
I need a revisionist perspective on the above websites which is comprehensive as possible. I am involved in a forum discussion on the Holocaust, and the above websites are cited claiming that the SS labour deployment reports depicted there for the Auschwitz-Birkenau crematoriums show that up to 900 sonderkommando were employed, supposedly demonstrating that in the summer and fall of 1944, when there were no epidemics in the camp, that there was mass extermination of the Jews taking place.
One must admit that these documents, if genuine, pose a challenge to revisionists. Let's review what we know of the Special Squad numbers from the labour deployment reports, with respect to the summer of 1944:
May 4th: SK number 208
May 15th: SK number 308
May 16th Hungarian transports begin arrival
July 11th Hungarian Action ends
July 12th Total camp occupancy is 92,208 prisoners (excluding depot-prisoners)
July 29th: SK number 873
August 1/2: SK number 903
August 21st: Camp population said to be 135,000 (including 30,000 Hungarian Jewish depot-prisoners)
August 29th: SK number 874
October 3rd: SK number 661
October 7th: SK number 663, SK uprising takes place
October 8th: SK number 663
October 9th: SK number 212
Unfortunately, we have no information on the number of SK during the Hungarian Action, which could demonstrate the how and when of the huge increase from 300 up to 900. Either all these labour deployments reports for the period are lost, or they are being suppressed.
One can only speculate now as to why the SS needed so many stokers for the crematoriums at that time.
Former camp commandant Richard Baer could have told us.
And he refused to admit, that people had been gassed in the camp. In fact, he vehemently denied it. Unfortunately he did not survive the pre-trial custody of the Auschwitz trials in Frankfurt.
One day he was found dead in his cell.before the start of the trial.
fge
Former camp commandant Richard Baer could have told us.
And he refused to admit, that people had been gassed in the camp. In fact, he vehemently denied it. Unfortunately he did not survive the pre-trial custody of the Auschwitz trials in Frankfurt.
One day he was found dead in his cell.before the start of the trial.
fge
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alpha
Re: Information required
Hebden,
the SK ("Heizer") strength is 870 on July 29th, August 1/2 and August August 29th. What changed were merely the number of Kapos and 30 guys they called "Holzablader".
That is, of course, what we expect according to the "exterminationists"!
The date of the increase can be determinted by looking at the accounts of those who were selected for the Sonderkommando. According to to accounts of several Greek Sonderkommandos, they were selected between early May and mid May 1944. According to Filip Müller the final increase up to 900 took place soon after the Hungarian transports arrived in Auschwitz with 450 Hungarian Jews. A Hungarian Jew in the Sonderkommando was Dov Paisikovic. According to him, he was deported to Auschwitz in May 1944 with his family and selected for the Sonderkommando by "Moll and other SS man".
It is therefore reasonable to assume that the Sonderkommando increase took place shortly before and during the Hungarian Operation.
the SK ("Heizer") strength is 870 on July 29th, August 1/2 and August August 29th. What changed were merely the number of Kapos and 30 guys they called "Holzablader".
That is, of course, what we expect according to the "exterminationists"!
Unfortunately, we have no information on the number of SK during the Hungarian Action, which could demonstrate the how and when of the huge increase from 300 up to 900.
The date of the increase can be determinted by looking at the accounts of those who were selected for the Sonderkommando. According to to accounts of several Greek Sonderkommandos, they were selected between early May and mid May 1944. According to Filip Müller the final increase up to 900 took place soon after the Hungarian transports arrived in Auschwitz with 450 Hungarian Jews. A Hungarian Jew in the Sonderkommando was Dov Paisikovic. According to him, he was deported to Auschwitz in May 1944 with his family and selected for the Sonderkommando by "Moll and other SS man".
It is therefore reasonable to assume that the Sonderkommando increase took place shortly before and during the Hungarian Operation.
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alpha
Sailor wrote:One can only speculate now as to why the SS needed so many stokers for the crematoriums at that time.
A poor excusation Sailor offers to solve the problem that there is no reasonable explanation for 870 "stokers" in the Birkenau crematoria other than an incriminating one.
Former camp commandant Richard Baer could have told us.
Oh, and Rudolf Hoess, former camp commandant, could have told us. Wait, he DID told us. Extermination.
And Josef Erber, Gestapo, could have told us. And he did told us. Extermination.
And hey, why don't we ask the stokers what they did there? Extermination.
But let's ignore this evidence and tell some untruths about Richard Baer instead, such as:
And he refused to admit, that people had been gassed in the camp. In fact, he vehemently denied it
No, Baer has testified that people had been gassed in the camp.
Richard Baer on 22 December 1960, StA Frankfurt/Main. Aktenzeichen: 4 Js 444/59, Volume XXXXII, page 7409, quoted in Kogn, Langbein, Rückerl, Nationalsozialistische Massentötungen durch Giftgas, page 199:
"Mit den Teillagern, in denen Vergasungen stattfanden, hatte ich nichts zu tun. Ich habe auch keinen Einfluß auf die Vergasungen selbst gehabt. Die Vergasungen fanden im Lager II-Birkenau statt. Dieses Lager unterstand nicht mir."
So, Sailor, explain our only english speaking readers:
Did Baer "refused to admit, that people had been gassed"? Yes or no?
Did Baer "vehemently denied it"? Yes or no?
If no, do you still think it is appropriate to call "non-revisionists" and Holocaust eyewitnesses, Believers and liars? Are you a Believer and liar, too? (just out of curiousity) Well, Sailor, as a German saying says,
"erstmal vor der eigenen Haustür kehren"!
Last edited by alpha on Wed Jan 01, 2003 8:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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