New research uncovers strong evidence that Jews were murdered BEFORE they reached Treblinka

[Zolton]

By Zolton Pilsner

12/27/22


Ironically, revisionists are supporting new evidence that strongly supports the hypothesis that the majority of Jews who were being transited eastward towards Treblinka were murdered BEFORE they ever reached the camp.


I want to ensure that this information is brought further into the sphere of discussion as it seems like a critical advancement on the topic of Treblinka and the AR camps and the looming question of "where did they [Jews] go?".

This information is based on a German database which is currently still in development which, for the first time ever, maps out the thousands of additional Jewish internment sites (i.e. other than the well-known concentration camps and their satellites) for labor and detention of Jews

The project is the work of German Prof. Dr. Michael Fehr with the Karl Ernst Osthaus Museum, historian Cornelia Steinhauer and artist Sigrid Sigurdsson. From the website and database which is titled, simply, "List of national socialist camps and detention sites 1933 - 1945":

Between 1933 and 1945, the national socialist regime established a system of crime sites throughout Europe. In addition to concentration and extermination camps, sites termed “labour reformatory camps,“ “camps for the protection of juveniles“ and “police detention camps“ were erected, although the living conditions in these camps differed very little from those in the concentration camps.

Many of these crime sites have been forgotten and the extent of the persecution is practically unknown. A majority of these “forgotten sites” have been systematically collected in this database. So far over 3600 sites have been recorded. For the first time, various maps that visually present the topography of persecution were created based on collected facts.

Previously, establishment historians and revisionists alike have generally accepted the view that 1.2 million Jews actually ended up in the Treblinka II (TII) camp. What has not been confirmed up until recently (via the information in the database) is that in most of the stops over the various train schedules, each stop was actually a labor camp (or up to several labor camps in the same area).

Since we now know there were forced labor camps at these stops, and since it has always been observed that the train routes were slower than one should expect for passengers being sent straight to Treblinka (Hilberg refers to it as "agonizing slowness"), it seems all but certain that a substantial number of Jews were let off at each of these stops.

The hypothesis being put forth by revisionists is that the question of "where did Jews [sent to Treblinka II] go" is perhaps irrelevant (or less relevant) as it can be argued that a majority of them never arrived at TII in the first place. The fact is that in most stops over various schedules, each had one or more labor camps (and each of these holding up to thousands of inmates at any given time

On the subject of how this new information might fit into an understanding of TII, any "extermination" to have occurred there, would,of course be those who were too elderly and/or ill to be able to work at any of the labor camps along the train route (or to be sent further east). It is suggested that these are the Jews (or others) who would most likely have been sent to TII, for euthanasia as part of Aktion 14f13. This could also explain why former T-4 staff were sent here as well.

We also know that T-4 staff were moved into the AR camps such as Treblinka which, I think, adds weight to the view that this camp had a more limited function of administering euthanasia to those few who were severely ill or otherwise meeting criteria for Aktion 14f13. Aktion 14f13 is generally accepted by Revisionists to have administered the euthanasia. And if TII sat at the end of a long line of labor camps but prior to transit further east, it seems like a sensible place for any such euthanasia operations to take place.

No one (until recently) has really stopped to consider how many even made it that far along the train route(s). Many or most, it would seem, departed at various labor camps along the way. There were stops all along that route, virtually all of them had one or several labor camps, some (or perhaps all, precise data still unknown) of these camps had thousands of inmates at any given time.

Revisionists say they cannot prove where anyone did or did not disembark from the trains, However, some do say that evidence strongly suggests many (if not most) of them disembarked before ever getting as far as Treblinka. It turns out, the number which documents show were sent "to Treblinka", in many cases, probably never arrived there at all. This is new information.

At this point, revisionists won't give any precise estimate at all of how many Jews disembarked at any of the given stops or arrived at the nearby labor camps. But some say that it can be argued, based on sound evidence, that tons of people disembarked from the train before ever getting near TII. The fact that some examples have already been shown is sufficient to suggest that Jews were, in fact, transported between the various labor camps along the line.

The discovery of the many labor camps en route impact our understanding of the ‘extermination’ narrative as a whole. Some revisionists alleged that there is not clear and indisputable proof of transports of Jews that had disembarked at TII, specifically, then re-boarded a train back onto the Eastern-occupied territories. But do say the evidence we do have that this occurred is indirect

They say that the evidence for Jews having disembarked is stronger than any evidence suggesting they did not.

Some revisionists claim to be unaware of any instances where individual Jews claim to have been at TII, specifically, before being transited further east. They say they were sent eastward to do labor, stopped for long periods at labor camps before those trains ever made it to Treblinka and there is no other reason which explains these lengthy stops other than departures/exchanges of passengers.

FACTS CLAIMED BY REVISIONISTS:

The only rational explanation provided thus far for the lengthy stops at labor camps by a train filled with laborers is the departure/exchange of laborers. A great number of Jews disembarked before the train(s) ever made it to what is generally referred to as "Treblinka." It is a fact that the trains made these stops. It is not conjecture. It is a fact that has not been discussed until recently. The fact is that, at present, there is only one rational explanation for why the trains stopped for extended periods at the locations of these labor camps, with trains full of laborers. Many could have died by various causes in these camps before ever having any opportunity to get back on the line toward Treblinka.

Including murder.



Sources:

The CODOH Revisionist Forum

[Otium]

Yet there's no reason nor proof of intentional and systematic mass murder dictated by some programme.

Of course murder could occur, and probably did in such circumstances, but it wouldn't at all be the kind of Holocaust your dogma dictates. In this case murder is as just as much a possibility as literally anything else, there's really no reason at all to even consider it.

What you've written is basically completely irrelevant, for it proves nothing as it says nothing about murder. It's baffling to me that you thought this proves something. This statement you made is completely unsubstantiated:

By Zolton Pilsner

Ironically, revisionists are supporting new evidence that strongly supports the hypothesis that the majority of Jews who were being transited eastward towards Treblinka were murdered BEFORE they ever reached the camp.

Revisionist aren't "ironically" supporting the "hypothesis" which alleges Jews were murdered before reaching Treblinka. The idea that they were "murdered" is just some nonsense you've pulled from thin air. The so-called "new evidence" says nothing about "murder", nothing at all. What you quoted is merely proof of transports being taken everywhere other than Treblinka, which is really just shifting the goal posts into further intentionally opaque territories with which you can invent more pet theories that have no basis in fact.

For what you've said to be true, for revisionists to be doing what you claim is so "ironic", you would have to have already proven that these people were "murdered".

[hermod]

Most laughable far-fetched inference and victory dance ever seen?

"Strong evidence"...

[borjastick]

The old changing story line routine to cover up the lack of facts. So predictable and so lame.

Just as when they invented the 'holocaust by bullets' to cover up the lack of forensic and genuine evidence for mass murder in the so called 'death camps' they are doing it again now with this load of old tosh.

One can imagine the holocaust management team at the quarterly meeting some time ago.
Committee Chairman- 'They're closing in on us, They know that we have no evidence for gas chambers and all that mass murder stuff'

Schlomo Bernstein-Goldfarb 'And Treblinka is a story in tatters too. After that stupid woman Sturdey Colls, she really opened up Pandora's Box on it'.

David The Money Changer 'I knew a Pandora once. Never showed me her box though'.

Committee Chairman - This is serious does anyone have a good idea or know what we should do?'.

Golda Moron-Moronsky - 'Yes we should tell everyone that they were murdered BEFORE they got near the camps. Impossible to argue with or disprove and allows us the chance to issue new 'facts' and claim we know more than they do'.

Committee Chariman - 'Brilliant, I knew it was a brilliant idea of mine to get you on the committee Golda. Let's put it to the vote. All who agree say Oy Vey'.

'OY VEY!' relied the ensemble.

[Lamprecht]

Ironically, revisionists are supporting new evidence that strongly supports the hypothesis that the majority of Jews who were being transited eastward towards Treblinka were murdered BEFORE they ever reached the camp.

Murdered? What?

Previously, establishment historians and revisionists alike have generally accepted the view that 1.2 million Jews actually ended up in the Treblinka II (TII) camp

I have never seen an estimate like this except from "eyewitnesses" that obviously are making it up, since nobody is going to or would have been able to count that many people. The general claim is 700 to 900 thousand.

The only rational explanation provided thus far for the lengthy stops at labor camps by a train filled with laborers is the departure/exchange of laborers. A great number of Jews disembarked before the train(s) ever made it to what is generally referred to as "Treblinka." It is a fact that the trains made these stops. It is not conjecture. It is a fact that has not been discussed until recently. The fact is that, at present, there is only one rational explanation for why the trains stopped for extended periods at the locations of these labor camps, with trains full of laborers. Many could have died by various causes in these camps before ever having any opportunity to get back on the line toward Treblinka.
Including murder.

Murder is not the same as homicide, it is a subset of homicide. Typically for an action to be "murder" it must be a deliberate and premeditated (prior intent) killing of another motivated by ill will.
One can make the argument that putting people in prison labor camps that they later died in is a form of murder. I don't take this stance unless the goal of putting them in the camps was for them to die, and this doesn't appear to be the case. The lack of food, medicine, clean water, overcrowding etc was a result of wartime conditions. Communicable disease especially is virtually never a form of deliberate homicide because causing someone else to contract a contagious disease increases the risk they will spread it to other people.
Using this sort of "logic" one can argue that governments murder their own citizens by engaging in conscription, because they presumably would not have been killed in the war if they were not forced to enlist. There is no general belief that victims of war that were conscripted were murdered by their own government.

[PrudentRegret]

This is a troll post. For some reason Iris does not like the recent analysis, but he won't just come out and make an argument.

This satirical article is not plausible. Believers will never, ever abandon the claim that all the deportees arrived at T-II. Their claims are not as easily adaptable as Iris (or "Zolton") is trying to portray in this post.

Providing reasonable doubt that T-II itself was the precise location for ~900,000 deportees sinks the Holocaust/AR extermination narrative and they cannot try to adapt it like this. They will never concede that deportees stepped off their wagons anywhere except T-II.

[Butterfangers]

This is a fun post but as far as validity goes, I think everyone has already said what needs to be said, above.

1. There is no physical evidence that Jews were 'Holocausted' before reaching Treblinka.
2. There is no documentary evidence that Jews were 'Holocausted' before reaching Treblinka.
3. There is not even testimony that Jews were 'Holocausted' before reaching Treblinka.

It's a dead issue. The only "evidence" that Jews were Holocausted is the spurious or downright ridiculous testimony from Jews who claim to have been at TII, as well as SS coerced 'confessions' brought about post-war. All of that pertains to TII. None of it exists for the many Zwangarbeiterlagers where it is known that Jews did, in fact, perform labor.

The only thing which has changed with the information about the Zwangarbeiterlagers now being known is that there is yet another layer which exterminationists have to prove before they can even get to claiming Jews were killed at TII. They have to prove Jews ever made it there. They thought they had already done this. They hadn't.

[Nazgul]

The only rational explanation provided thus far for the lengthy stops at labor camps by a train filled with laborers is the departure/exchange of laborers. A great number of Jews disembarked before the train(s) ever made it to what is generally referred to as "Treblinka." It is a fact that the trains made these stops. It is not conjecture. It is a fact that has not been discussed until recently. The fact is that, at present, there is only one rational explanation for why the trains stopped for extended periods at the locations of these labor camps, with trains full of laborers. Many could have died by various causes in these camps before ever having any opportunity to get back on the line toward Treblinka.
Including murder.

Death by train . In a now defunct forum I wrote extensively about the dead arriving by train at Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka. There have been witness reports of a trainload of dead arriving at a few places with only a few survivors. Often those trains came long distances, say from Corfu island in the Ionian sea. There is also the train near Dachau strafed by allied planes killing those inside. This resulted in the murder of SS guards (who had surrendered) by the US forces.

Evidence has been given that Jews like Alex Cohen left an alleged Vernichtungslager (Sobibor) by train to arrive at Majdanek and then the HASAG Skarzysko-Kamienna Zwangarbeitslager. He left Sobibor with other men.

Die Fahrplananordnung were presented as evidence of mass arrivals at Treblinka Station. Despite that station servicing the labour camp (Arbeitslager Treblinka I) and another (TII), these documents have been used as evidence of mass extermination. After all if thousands arrived every day then "where did they go" if they were not exterminated. No documentary evidence has yet been presented of thousands of Jews arriving at the destination point.

Until recently the extent of labour camps along the train routes were not known; there are still more to be discovered. Despite all the towns along the route, these trains only stop for extended periods at either the locations of major labour camps or railway junctions.
Even a short stop such as at Bakowiec is a location of railway junction.

The timetable arrangement Fahrplananordnung (Fplo) is a document with which the timetable details of a special train on the Deutsche Bahn AG network are made known to the parties involved in the execution of the train journey (e.g. dispatcher along the route travelled, RU control centre, train driver ). The labour camps for Jews must have had their own Fahrplananordnung due to the extensive movement of personnel as work was needed. There is little indication that the Fplos presented as evidence is not simply one of these.

I made it quite clear to our resident troll Nessie, that the existence of train stops according to Fplo does not "prove" people were not exterminated as claimed but these documents cannot be used as evidence as they have been. He was asked to find another document which shows that Jews were transported directly to TII or even Treblinka station, with only minor stops for fuel and water(for the steam train). A month or so down the track such evidence has not been produced.

It can be shown that there was a huge movement of Jews by rail due to work requirements. I have written about the Jew Rytz who went to a multitude of camps. Sobibor detainee Jewess Jetje Veterman was accomodated in 7 various camps during the war period doing a variety of tasks such as sorting clothes, making marmalade, gardening and just being in detention. She left Sobibor by train with a number of people. Other Jews left Sobibor with hundreds of others.

What is known is that Jews in some cases were treated badly. Other Jews like Peter Lantos were treated well by the SS, even given chocolate bars. Wiki articles have stated that Peters' dad was starved to death by the evil Nazis. Peter states in his book, Parallel Lines, that his father, a heavy smoker, traded his food for cigarettes. He states that treatment got worse as the war progressed.

Pierre Berg, was incarcerated in Birkenau ( Scheißhaus luck); became a Kapo but also worked in Monowitz. He states that the food was ample but usually stolen by the Kapos, resulting in shortages for the Jews.

120 labour camps for Jews has been discovered in the Ukraine, if true the treatment of the inmates were horrific. There are probably many more camps to be discovered in the Russian East.

It is true that people did die in labour camps for Jews. At the HASAG munition factories toxins did affect the workers. The same happened in the UK as well.

Still death by train is a new take on the matter.

[Zolton]

Nazgul:

Death by train .

Thomas Kues Holocaust by Train

https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6838&hilit=Thomas+there+is+no+reason+to+doubt+Kues

Thomas Kues:

Holocaust historian Dieter Pohl estimates that up to 5 % of the deportees to the Reinhardt camps perished en route due to suffocation, dehydration, crushing caused by panicking deportees etc... there is little reason to doubt this estimate with regard to Treblinka... Moreover, there are reasons to assume that a smaller percentage of the deportees were subjected to “euthanasia”

It looks like the new revisionist research findings are corroborating their older research.

Even the revisionist "Nazgul" has admitted that he has "written extensively about the dead arriving by train at Treblinka."

[Zolton]

Butterfangers:

1. There is no physical evidence that Jews were 'Holocausted' before reaching Treblinka.
2. There is no documentary evidence that Jews were 'Holocausted' before reaching Treblinka.
3. There is not even testimony that Jews were 'Holocausted' before reaching Treblinka.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6838&hilit=holocaust+by+train+thomas+kues

Holocaust historian Dieter Pohl estimates that up to 5 % of the deportees to the Reinhardt camps perished en route due to suffocation, dehydration, crushing caused by panicking deportees etc... there is little reason to doubt this estimate with regard to Treblinka.

I think Thomas Kues would wholeheartedly agree with this new revisionist hypothesis. I think these new research findings corroborate his own.

[Nazgul]

I think Thomas Kues would wholeheartedly agree with this new revisionist hypothesis. I think these new research findings corroborate his own.

Some of the Jews claim that the Germans had thrown a a mixture of lime and chlorine mixed with water, into the wagons to kill them. Others mention quicklime (p22 Belzec, Mattogno)

A train arrived at Treblinka according to an eyewitness where most of the trains passengers were deceased, from typhus.

This was mentioned to Nessie as one of the reasons for mass graves.

Now you have brought it up, it is a topic worth revisiting. It is clear that the deaths on the Corfu train was neglect and not intentional though that too can be revisited here.

[Otium]

Some of the Jews claim that the Germans had thrown a a mixture of lime and chlorine mixed with water, into the wagons to kill them. Others mention quicklime (p22 Belzec, Mattogno)

A train arrived at Treblinka according to an eyewitness where most of the trains passengers were deceased, from typhus.

This was mentioned to Nessie as one of the reasons for mass graves.

Now you have brought it up, it is a topic worth revisiting. It is clear that the deaths on the Corfu train was neglect and not intentional though that too can be revisited here.

All these claims just get further and further away from the central allegation of a systematic programme for mass murder.

Holocaust historian Dieter Pohl estimates that up to 5 % of the deportees to the Reinhardt camps perished en route due to suffocation, dehydration, crushing caused by panicking deportees etc... there is little reason to doubt this estimate with regard to Treblinka... Moreover, there are reasons to assume that a smaller percentage of the deportees were subjected to “euthanasia”

It looks like the new revisionist research findings are corroborating their older research.

As Lamprecht already said:

Murder is not the same as homicide, it is a subset of homicide. Typically for an action to be "murder" it must be a deliberate and premeditated (prior intent) killing of another motivated by ill will.
One can make the argument that putting people in prison labor camps that they later died in is a form of murder. I don't take this stance unless the goal of putting them in the camps was for them to die, and this doesn't appear to be the case. The lack of food, medicine, clean water, overcrowding etc was a result of wartime conditions. Communicable disease especially is virtually never a form of deliberate homicide because causing someone else to contract a contagious disease increases the risk they will spread it to other people.
Using this sort of "logic" one can argue that governments murder their own citizens by engaging in conscription, because they presumably would not have been killed in the war if they were not forced to enlist. There is no general belief that victims of war that were conscripted were murdered by their own government.

Zolton, "suffocation, dehydration, crushing caused by panicking deportees" is not murder, nor is it proof of a plan to "exterminate" the Jews.

[Butterfangers]

I think Thomas Kues would wholeheartedly agree with this new revisionist hypothesis. I think these new research findings corroborate his own.

Thomas Kues might also put his weener in a light socket. Does him [possibly] agreeing with anything here add credibility to such an act? It's an obvious fallacy which is why it is good that you are joking.

Obviously, your goal is to suggest that by acknowledging the existence of Zwangarbeiterslagers en route to TII and acknowledging their probable utilization, a concession is being made to exterminationists.

What you are saying is: "I am comfortable with the narrative Revisionists have built so far, and I am afraid to risk it by 'shaking things up' in any way."

It's been obvious that this is your concern from the beginning. But you seem to miss the point that this in no way is any sort of concession to exterminationists. If you understand what is being said, it is not even possible for it to be interpreted that way. Hence, it seems that the notion of a "big development" in and of itself is what frightens you.

Fair enough. When we live in a world dealing with subversive liars, it's a good idea to always be on the lookout and err on the side of too much caution over too little.

Nonetheless, as far as I can tell, there is nothing about the topic of fewer Jews arriving at TII which spells "more extermination [there or elsewhere]". The topic of and evidence for some X number of Jews transiting further east is still very much alive, otherwise I wouldn't have spent hours yesterday mapping out camps that way. Nothing about this topic changes the supremacy of a transit hypothesis over any related to mass extermination. If anything, it only takes away some of that burden of proof regarding transit, since we no longer know how many Jews would even have "had to" transit from there. That same burden is shifted even further upon exterminationists who now, to my knowledge, have zero (0) "official" documents to show sufficiently how many Jews (even an estimate) ever set foot in their 'death camp'.

I call it good news.

[hermod]

Even the revisionist "Nazgul" has admitted that he has "written extensively about the dead arriving by train at Treblinka."

Who's Nazgul in the first place (no offense intended)? Why would a guy who joined this forum only a week ago and who allegedly wrote some revisionist comments on "a now defunct forum" (making it impossible for us to check his allegation and to assess the quality of his posts there) be regarded as the spokesman of Holocaust revisionism??? Sounds like a trick of Deborah Lipstadt's when she deceptively turned a WWII historian who had never written a single book about the Holocaust (David Irving) into "The King of Holocaust Denial" in order to be able to claim that she had debunked 'Holocaust denial' as a whole once and for all. That witch would never have dared challenge real Holocaust revisionists such as Mattogno and Faurisson because she knew very well that they would have publicly debunked the Holocaust hoax as easily and spectacularly as it had been at the Zündel Trials a few years earlier.

[hermod]

I think Thomas Kues would wholeheartedly agree with this new revisionist hypothesis. I think these new research findings corroborate his own.

Some of the Jews claim that the Germans had thrown a a mixture of lime and chlorine mixed with water, into the wagons to kill them. Others mention quicklime (p22 Belzec, Mattogno)

So-called death trains, not death factories with gas chambers (or steam chambers or electrocution chambers), were the first version of the Holocaust hoax. Jan Karski, who had visited the Belzec [alleged] death camp and was "the first eyewitness to tell Roosevelt of the Jewish Holocaust," didn't even mention any gas chamber or any other killing facility in his now-embarrassing 1944 'account.'

https://postimg.cc/64Vkwc4B