Simple challenge to bombsaway on alleged physical "evidence of a genocidal program"

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Hektor
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Re: Simple challenge to bombsaway on alleged physical "evidence of a genocidal program"

Postby Hektor » 4 months 1 week ago (Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:35 pm)

Butterfangers wrote:
bombsaway wrote:Not just human remains, but burnt bone fragments, which is evidence of cremation and body destruction. Such fragments being found on the surface of these sites 80 years after the events in question, yes is consistent with their description in orthodox literature. I think this photographic evidence fulfills one of your requests (for at least 1 mg of human remains)  

What you're describing is that items which are relatively easy to obtain [from literally anyone's dead relative(s)] have shown up at surface level of 'Holocaust' sites to which many thousands of tourists visit each year. It's a site for which a particular narrative has powerful political incentives for those who maintain said narrative. Much like the nail-scratches in the Auschwitz 'chambers', there's no doubt that [Jewish?] tourists are willing to add their own "flair" to alleged 'extermination' sites to add dramatic effect and to maintain the narrative. Please don't make me also dig up the numerous examples of Jews caught lying about the Holohoax so people "wouldn't forget". It's the same motive for the same act: deception.
....


Is he serious? They found human bone fragments in a war zone of which some appear to have been charred. And that's the proof for the extermination narrative to be true. With that standard of evidence one could prove virtually any extermination one could possibly make up. So it is no proof at all.

It's also within consideration by Revisionists that people did die and were cremated at those sites. A few remains are more in line with the Revisionist version of events than with the Exterminationist one. And that's what the exterminationist side of the debate HAS TO first and foremost, before they even can be taken seriously. But that would cast doubt on their narrative and doubt endangers the believe system. They need general Belief in the public to uphold their cultic belief. It worked like this with the COVID-scam.

Posterior changes are also a possibility, but that's not where the 'lack of evidence' conclusion does rest on.
That the evidence in Auschwitz has been tampered with is also true. That alone should lead people to dismiss the assertions. It's obvious that the Communists tried to frame their most virulent enemies with all kinds of atrocity stories. That propaganda was often so crude that it should cast doubt in anyone dealing with the subject, but strangely most people don't... At least not openly. That behavior is suspicious in itself.

The frequent scaming by 'witnesses' and 'survivors' (most Jews from that area don't, they are either silent or themselves shocked to hear about the allegation after the war) is another alarm bell. But most people don't object openly to that neither. Taken the most flamboyant and fantastic allegations have vanished from the narrative taught nowadays. But that isn't done out of love to accuracy, it's done because those allegations have the potential of making the more intelligent parts of the audience suspicious. The shock and awe tactic is of course still there. The Holocaust brand management combined with movies and gossip makes sure of that.

The late attempts at 'forensics' aren't convincing at all. They confirm what Revisionists have hypothesized for a very long time already. There's nothing worse showing.... But Holocaustians can't let their Myth die. Because if it turns out to be false, they were the ones engaging in slander and telling lies for decades by now. Their arrogance doesn't allow them now to admit that they were wrong.

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Re: Simple challenge to bombsaway on alleged physical "evidence of a genocidal program"

Postby bombsaway » 4 months 1 week ago (Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:30 pm)

@Butterfangers, is it your assertion that the high frequency of burned bones that Heath and Muhlenkamp reported seeing at Chelmno and Sobibor (respectively) is due to Jews sporadically visiting these sites and dumping cremains there? Is all this is based on a single article about someone dumping cremains of relatives at Treblinka?  

Can you expand on this, or do you have any alternate theories?

regarding Kola's core samples, I cited Mattogno's work here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14850&start=15#p107675

He spends very little time on them and goes into virtually no detail so there's isn't much substantively to go on. There's no refutation, or even commentary on Kola's descriptions of the graves, eg grave number 4

Grave Pit No.4

The pit was registered at the borderline in the southern part. The grave was in the shape of a rectangle and dimensions were determined as 16 meters by 6 meters. The drilling was suspended at the depth of 2.30 meters because of a layer of bodies in wax-fat transformation. The volume of crematory part is about 250 meters.


This is one of the smaller graves reported but he provides volume for the crematory part (250 cubic meters), based on a 100 pound person yielding 100 cubic inches of ash (let's double this volume for the purposes of this exercise) a single cubic meter could contain remains of 300 people. 250 cubic meters would be 75,000 but the ash was mixed with sand -- Mattogno says up to 50%. If the ratio was 25%, you are looking at cremains of almost 20k in this one small grave. 

I think Mattogno's arguments are insufficient to demonstrate Kola's descriptions of crematory contents in the graves are drastically overstated. But this is something we can discuss further if you are inclined.

Butterfangers wrote:I added bold to your bullshit, above. The truth is, Krege simply wouldn't allow it to be published (ibid., ftn. 293):

Editor’s remark: Sturdy Colls’s remarks were probably aimed at a brief news article by Australian
engineer Richard Krege about his 1999 ground-penetrating-radar research at Treblinka as pub-
lished in a German-language revisionist magazine in 2000, which states (Krege, p. 63):
“The comparison of this [GPR] image with [GPR] images of areas where the soil is known to
be untouched and essentially free of disturbances shows that the radar images taken by the
Australians in the Treblinka Camp show an almost perfect soil untouched by man.”
However, Krege managed to scan only a small part of the former camp area. Due to a lack of
funding and time, he was unable to scan the rest of the camp. As a result, Krege refused to publish
his entire dataset, because he considered it highly incomplete and inconclusive. See Neumaier/
Rudolf, p. 505.


Rudolf's description "Krege managed to scan only a small part of the former camp area" contradicts Graf's first-hand one: "Over the following days Krege worked tirelessly with his radar equipment, checking out every square meter of ground in the area of the alleged mass grave". The study was a failure -- if graves were indicated why didn't Mattogno and Graf write about it? Any evidence would help here, even the single scan that Krege published.

Hektor wrote:
Is he serious? They found human bone fragments in a war zone of which some appear to have been charred. And that's the proof for the extermination narrative to be true. With that standard of evidence one could prove virtually any extermination one could possibly make up. So it is no proof at all.



Where did I say charred bone fragments prove the extermination narrative? It seems like your side is the one blankly stating that since the graves haven't been proven authoritatively, they cannot exist. There seems to be no uncertainty for you, whereas my position is one of uncertainty (going solely on the physical evidence that has been presented). For me, the Holocaust narrative is much more thoroughly indicated by the witness and documentary evidence, and also the lack of any compelling counter narrative, which I am still discussing in the other thread.

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Re: Simple challenge to bombsaway on alleged physical "evidence of a genocidal program"

Postby Butterfangers » 4 months 1 week ago (Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:13 pm)

Hektor wrote:It's also within consideration by Revisionists that people did die and were cremated at those sites.

Mattogno makes this concession quite clearly for Belzec. It's under section 4.1 of his book, "The Operation Reinhard Camps" (https://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/28-torc.pdf), section titled, "The Findings of Judge Godzieszewski". This judge documented an excavation in 1945 which was then also reported on by the local coroner who visited the excavation site.

In regard to this excavation, it's important to note that wherever "human ashes" were found, they were mixed with significant [although unquantified] amounts of other material:

Also, pieces of burnt wood were extracted...

[...]

During the excavation of all the pits, it was ascertained that the soil of the camp cemetery had been excavated before, which is evident from the fact that the layers of human ashes are not homogeneous, but mixed with soil.

[...]

In the ashes appear clearly charred human bones and pieces of charcoal.

[...]

The ground of the cemetery and especially the excavated pits are covered with layers of varying thickness of human ashes from the combustion of human corpses and wood, and are mixed in various proportions with sand.


Also, it does not appear that the total volume of the pits dug is/are discernible as complete dimensions (length, width and depth) are not given.

With everything above in-mind, here are the proportions of each pit which contained these "mixture" layers, and how much in each:

PIT 1
37.5% of an 8m pit had a mixture of wood ash, human ash, soil, and sand.
The remaining 62.5% of this pit had no human remains.

PIT 2
53% of a 6m pit had a mixture of wood ash, human ash, soil, and sand.
The remaining 47% of this pit had no human remains.

PIT 3
67% of the 3m pit had a mixture of wood ash, human ash, soil, and sand.
The remaining 33% of this pit had no human remains.

PIT 4
67% of the 3m pit had a mixture of wood ash, human ash, soil, and sand.
The remaining 33% of this pit had no human remains.

PITS 5-9
"The pits labeled with the numbers 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 were excavated to a depth of 2 meters, and from them only sand mixed with human ashes and human bones [presumably also wood ash, as with the others, and all mixed with soil] were extracted..."


No "mixture" layers in any of these pits were, individually, deeper than 2m across (i.e. the width of the layer). The deepest detected "mixture" layer within any pit ended at 6m underground. Deeper/larger pits tended to find a significantly lower proportion of "mixture" layer (versus "clean" soil).

The notion that Germans in some cases disposed of bodies in this way is not any [necessary] indication of criminality. Given cremation technology was the new application being implemented in all areas, even a makeshift open-air setup would seem appropriate to thoroughly eradicate disease, especially at a location where large quantities of "junk" property were already being burnt on-site (thus, designated areas for constant, controlled burning).

One thing I find to be very important which Mattogno doesn't mention at all is that nowhere in the 1945 report (at least, in those portions he quotes) does it mention that bones were found to have been crushed---quite the contrary: complete/unbroken bones were apparently found in many/most cases. I'd go as far as to say this report is some evidence against the notion that bones were mechanically crushed at all and that "crushed" bones found at that site later on (e.g. by Kola) may have been added post-war.

If I were to even concede that the Germans could have crushed bones as part of some cover-up scheme, that would still fit well-within the concept of Aktion Reinhard as a top-secret, resettlement and property-confiscation effort (in violation of international law, hence the secrecy) for which all evidence (including Jews dying in transit) should have been destroyed. Eyewitnesses who observed this practice (of bone-crushing), if true, could have seen it as a foundation upon which to base their exaggerations and contributions to the advancing "Holocaust" fabrication-narrative. With this in mind, perhaps it is no coincidence that the only camp with an excavation of actual human remains (however thorough/credible or not) is also the first AR camp to have opened and been in operation. Perhaps the extreme exaggerations told by its witnesses set the theme and narrative which would later be used for propaganda, exaggerated even further.

The bottom-line remains the same as ever: there is no evidence of corpses of quantities within so much as one, two, or even three orders of magnitude at Belzec as alleged (and no quantities beyond what can be easily explained as those having died in-transit), and even far fewer at Treblinka and Sobibor (where evidence of even mass quantities of transit-deaths is non-existent; let alone quantities allegedly 'exterminated').

The bottom-line is that there is no evidence of "Holocaust".


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