Roberto Muehlnkamp's excuse for the lack of human remains at Auschwitz blows up in his face.

[Hannover]

So that we could discuss Roberto Muehlenkamp's assertions clearly I started this thread so that there was no confusion with other topics that were brought up in another thread from which the quote below by Roberto was taken.
It was taken from:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11223

I will get to his other claims in that thread on a thread by thread basis.

Roberto said:

Auschwitz:
There are some mass graves of inmates who perished after having been left behind during the German evacuation of the camp in early 1945, but other inmates as well as deportees killed upon arrival (the overwhelming majority of the camp's victims) were cremated, after which the cremation remains were crushed and ground and transported to a nearby river, where they were thrown into the water. For this reason it is not possible to find the cremation remains of most people killed at Auschwitz, or at least most of the cremation remains. Where corpses were cremated in open-air pyres, some cremation remains remained in the soil and were detected during a prospection carried out in the 1960s. Other than that I know of no physical examination of the camp's soil in search of cremation remains.

This is a massive contradiction of 'holocaust' storyline. No surprise because contradictions are the rule, not the exception.

Here are just a few examples that debunk Roberto's excuses.

Here we have claimed massive cremation remains supposedly dumped into a pond at Auschwitz.

'Ash pond for Krema II at Birkenau' (Auschwitz)


'Markers for the Krema III ash pond' (Auschwitz)

From the official web site of the Auschwitz-Birkenau Museum:

"On the other side of the road dividing Krematoria IV, and V, was Krematorium IV, with an identical cremation rate as K-V, 768 corpses in a 24-hour period. Both K-IV and V had been built above ground for financial reasons. Each gas chamber was divided into at first three, and later four, rooms with a total capacity of 2,000 victims. The holes for dropping the gas were in the walls. Between it and the Little Wood is a pond, one that was used to dump the ashes of the murdered victims. It sits there today, still, quiet, as is the whole of this part of Birkenau, eerily quiet now. In the distance is The Sauna and between it and the Pond, the ruins of Krematorium IV."

Oops!

A piece in the N.Y. Times, Dec, 13, 1997 mentions:

“a large swath of land, known as the field of ashes, that stretches behind the gas chambers at the Birkenau camp.”

Oops again.

So there it is, tons of human remains claimed, none ever shown. Clearly Roberto has been terribly 'mislead'. There are claims of enormous human remains, but as Revisionists have demonstrated repeatedly, there is no such thing.
Roberto recites an excuse which is utterly contradicted by "The Industry' itself.

also see:
'The "ash pond" of auschwitz'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7211

You'll love this beauty:

That is the Ash Pond of Auschwitz-Birkenau. Notice the gray swirls on the water's surface? That's human ash. It's still gray more than 60 years later."

Roberto and the always spinning, always contradicting 'holocau$t' Industry should have remembered:
'Tell the truth, it's easier to remember'.

Then, inconveniently for Zionists, there are WWII aerial photos of Auschwitz at the time of the alleged 'mass extermination' process, but predictably we see nothing like Roberto and the Zionists claims. Nothing.

And note that Roberto claims that there was 'grinding of 1,250,000 human corpses into dust'?
We've gone from Amateur Hour to Comedy Hour.

More to come.

- Hannover

"One should not ask, how this mass murder was made possible. It was technically possible, because it happened. This has to be the obligatory starting-point for any historical research regarding this topic. We would just like to remind you: There is no debate regarding the existence of the gas chambers, and there can never be one."

- endorsed by 34 "reputable historians" and published in the French daily Le Monde on February 21, 1979

[borjastick]

It's worth putting this into real world context in terms of the volume and weight of cremains resulting from the claims at Auschwitz.

The original claim was that 4m people were killed at the place. That would have led to about 16 million pounds of human remains after being cremated. That would be over 7,000 tons of human remains. This is a colossal quantity to have been dissolved into a pond or to have been plowed into local fields.

Then we get to the official number of about 1 million dead. This would have left nearly 2 million tons of remains. This too is a vast mountain of bone material and teeth. None of which is shown today and cannot be explained away.

If we get to the Red Cross figures which showed that 52,000 or so died in Auschwitz, from which we know that the majority were Catholics not jews. In any case if they were all cremated we would have seen a pile of ashes in the order of 200 tons.

I once had 110 tons of earth removed from my garden as was staggered at the size of the pile.

But I would concede that if the RC figure is correct that sort of quantity could have been removed from the site.

[roberto]

First of all, it would be helpful if thread titles could be more neutral. Terms like "excuse" and "blows up in his face" go in the direction of ad hominem rhetoric.

So that we could discuss Roberto Muehlenkamp's assertions clearly I started this thread so that there was no confusion with other topics that were brought up in another thread from which the quote below by Roberto was taken.
It was taken from:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11223

I will get to his other claims in that thread on a thread by thread basis.

Roberto said:

Auschwitz:
There are some mass graves of inmates who perished after having been left behind during the German evacuation of the camp in early 1945, but other inmates as well as deportees killed upon arrival (the overwhelming majority of the camp's victims) were cremated, after which the cremation remains were crushed and ground and transported to a nearby river, where they were thrown into the water. For this reason it is not possible to find the cremation remains of most people killed at Auschwitz, or at least most of the cremation remains. Where corpses were cremated in open-air pyres, some cremation remains remained in the soil and were detected during a prospection carried out in the 1960s. Other than that I know of no physical examination of the camp's soil in search of cremation remains.

This is a massive contradiction of 'holocaust' storyline. No surprise because contradictions are the rule, not the exception.

Here are just a few examples that debunk Roberto's excuses.

Again, it would be helpful it rhetorical terms such as "excuses" could be avoided. My assertions may be right or wrong, but they are not "excuses".

Here we have claimed massive cremation remains supposedly dumped into a pond at Auschwitz.

'Ash pond for Krema II at Birkenau' (Auschwitz)


'Markers for the Krema III ash pond' (Auschwitz)

From the official web site of the Auschwitz-Birkenau Museum:

"On the other side of the road dividing Krematoria IV, and V, was Krematorium IV, with an identical cremation rate as K-V, 768 corpses in a 24-hour period. Both K-IV and V had been built above ground for financial reasons. Each gas chamber was divided into at first three, and later four, rooms with a total capacity of 2,000 victims. The holes for dropping the gas were in the walls. Between it and the Little Wood is a pond, one that was used to dump the ashes of the murdered victims. It sits there today, still, quiet, as is the whole of this part of Birkenau, eerily quiet now. In the distance is The Sauna and between it and the Pond, the ruins of Krematorium IV."

Oops!

A piece in the N.Y. Times, Dec, 13, 1997 mentions:

“a large swath of land, known as the field of ashes, that stretches behind the gas chambers at the Birkenau camp.” Oops again.

So there it is, tons of human remains claimed, none ever shown. Clearly Roberto has been terribly 'mislead'. There are claims of enormous human remains, but as Revisionists have demonstrated repeatedly, there is no such thing.
Roberto recites an excuse which is utterly contradicted by "The Industry' itself.

also see:
'The "ash pond" of auschwitz'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7211

You'll love this beauty:


Roberto and the always spinning, always contradicting 'holocau$t' Industry should have remembered:
'Tell the truth, it's easier to remember'.

Then, inconveniently for Zionists, there are WWII aerial photos of Auschwitz at the time of the alleged 'mass extermination' process, but predictably we see nothing like Roberto and the Zionists claims. Nothing.

And note that Roberto claims that there was 'grinding of 1,250,000 human corpses into dust'?
We've gone from Amateur Hour to Comedy Hour.

More to come.

Again, it would be helpful if accusations such as "spinning" and abusive rhetoric such as "Amateur Hour to Comedy Hour" could be done without, also because it would give this forum a more respectable appearance. The same goes for labeling whoever accepts the historical record of mass extermination at Auschwitz-Birkenau as a "Zionist".

As to my supposed assertion that 1,250,000 corpses were ground "into dust", it can be found nowhere in my above-quoted statement. First of all, the number of Auschwitz-Birkenau victims that I accept as factual is slightly below one million, which corresponds to Polish historian Franciszek Piper's estimate as corrected downwards (regarding the Jews from Hungary) pursuant to the study Das letzte Kapitel, by German historians Christian Gerlach and Götz Aly. Second, I don't think that human cremation remains can be ground into "dust", especially in case of incomplete cremation on open-air pyres, or when bones are withdrawn from cremation ovens before they have been destroyed as completely as they can be in a cremation oven, in order to speed up the process. However thorough the subsequent grinding may be, the result will always include many smaller or larger bone fragments.

As to what was done with the cremation remains of people cremated at Auschwitz-Birkenau, I don't care about what is claimed by any publications of the supposed "Industry". I only care about what becomes apparent from direct evidence.

One of my sources as concerns disposal of cremation remains is the testimony of Doctor Miklos Nyiszli, quoted in Pressac's AUSCHWITZ: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers , namely the following part under http://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0474.shtml (emphasis added):

Nothing but a pile of ashes remained in the crematory ovens. Trucks took the ashes to the Vistula, a mile away, and dumped them into the raging waters of the river.

After so much suffering and horror there was still no peace, even for the dead.

Nyiszli seems to be the only one of the inmate witnesses quoted by Pressac who mentioned how cremation remains were finally disposed of.

My other source is camp commandant Rudolf Höss. In his notes with the title Die »Endlösung der Judenfrage« im KL Auschwitz, which are attached to the memoirs that Höss wrote in Polish captivity and obviously based on his pre-trial interrogations, Höss wrote the following:

Die Asche fiel während des ohne Unterbrechung fortgesetzten Verbrennens durch die Roste und wurde laufend entfernt und zerstampft. Das Aschenmehl wurde mittels Lastwagen nach der Weichsel gefahren und dort schaufelweise in die Strömung geworfen, wo es sofort abtrieb und sich auflöste. Auch mit der Asche aus den Verbrennungsgruben bei Bunker II und Krematorium IV [V] wurde so verfahren.

This was translated as follows in Commandant of Auschwitz, p. 199 (emphasis added):

During the period when the fires were kept burning continuously, without a break, the ashes fell through the grates and were constantly removed and crushed to powder, The ashes were then taken in lorries to the Vistula, where they immediately drifted away and dissolved. The ashes taken from the burning pits near bunker II and crematorium IV were dealt with in the same way.

It would be interesting to know what testimonies are the basis of claims that cremation remains were dealt with in another manner than described by Nyiszli and Höss, namely thrown into one or more ash ponds. These two witnesses are primary sources, whereas the publications mentioned by Hannover are secondary ones at best. Unless I missed something, none of the "ash pond" sources referred to mentions eyewitness accounts that describe such pond. The blog article https://auschwitz-2012.blogspot.pt/2012/01/auschwitz-2-pond-of-ashes.html mentions Jacob Bronowski (obviously this gentleman: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Bronowski) and Alan Jacobs, but neither of the two was an Auschwitz eyewitness. However, Jacobs seems to have interviewed Auschwitz survivors (http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/alanjacobs.htm), so maybe some of them told him something about an ash pond.

The aforementioned Polish historian Franciszek Piper ("Gas Chambers and Crematoria", in: Yisrael Gutman and Michael Bernbaum (editors), Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp, pp. 157-182, here p. 171) states the following:

The incompletely incinerated bones fell through the grille into the ash pit, were ground with wooden mortars along with the ashes, then poured into pits near the crematorium. Next they were removed from the pits and poured into the Vistula river or nearby ponds. Sometimes they were used to prepare compost; other times they were used directly to fertilize the fields of the camp farms.

However, no source reference for the above statement as concerns the disposal of cremation remains is provided.

But then, Auschwitz was never my main field of interest, so there may be testimonies mentioning an ash pond that I'm not aware of. There may also be testimonies that I read a long time ago and no longer remember. Until I (again) see such testimonies, I'd rather rely on the above-quoted testimonies of Nyiszli and Höss.

Regarding cremation remains found in the former camp's soil, my source is Piper, as above, note 39 on page 179:

In 1965, Hydrokop, a chemical mining enterprise based in Krakow, was commissioned by the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum to carry out geological tests at Birkenau aimed at determining the locations of incineration pits and pyres. Specialists of Hydrokop bored 303 holes up to 3 m deep. Traces of human ashes, bones, and hair turned up in 42 sites. Documentation of all the holes and the diagrams of their distribution are preserved in the Conservation Department of the Museum.

[roberto]

It's worth putting this into real world context in terms of the volume and weight of cremains resulting from the claims at Auschwitz.

The original claim was that 4m people were killed at the place. That would have led to about 16 million pounds of human remains after being cremated. That would be over 7,000 tons of human remains. This is a colossal quantity to have been dissolved into a pond or to have been plowed into local fields.

The original claim was made by the Soviets and never taken quite seriously west of the Iron Curtain, even during the Trial of the Major War Criminals before the International Military Tribunal. Camp commandant Rudolf Höss, in his pretrial interrogations, gave a number slightly above one million and dismissed higher estimates as much too high or even nonsensical.

Then we get to the official number of about 1 million dead. This would have left nearly 2 million tons of remains. This too is a vast mountain of bone material and teeth. None of which is shown today and cannot be explained away.

First of all, there was never an "official" number except behind the Iron Curtain. Second, the absence of visible remains can be explained if all or most of them were thrown into the Vistula, as mentioned by Nyiszli and Höss (see my previous post). I would be interested in knowing how you calculated the amount of remains, by the way. Could you please provide your calculations?

If we get to the Red Cross figures which showed that 52,000 or so died in Auschwitz, from which we know that the majority were Catholics not jews. In any case if they were all cremated we would have seen a pile of ashes in the order of 200 tons.

Where can I find these "Red Cross figures", which are lower than even the number of registered deaths among inmates and obviously don't include deportees killed upon arrival?

I once had 110 tons of earth removed from my garden as was staggered at the size of the pile.

But I would concede that if the RC figure is correct that sort of quantity could have been removed from the site.

Cremations related to mass killing operations at Auschwitz-Birkenau lasted for more than two years, from early 1942 until late 1944. Cremations of registered inmates lasted even longer. Why would it have been impossible to dispose of 2 million tons of remains during this period, in the manner described by Nyiszli and Höss?

[borjastick]

holocaustredcross.jpg (87.29 KiB) Viewed 5925 times

I don't really know how you can claim there was never an official figure. Unless you want to throw everything we say into the frying pan that is.

Average cremains of human cremations are about 4lbs. My maths aren't that good but I think my figures stand up. Check and revise if you want to. I don't accept your assertion that people were murdered as soon as they came into the camp.

The quantities of cremated people could have been done away with in the time frame but not completely and to this day there would be huge amounts of remains to be found in the area. They aren't though.

I've never met a holocaustian promoter who isn't a zionist and vice versa.

Edit: checking my abacus I think I mean 2000 tons of human remains. However it doesn't change the impossibility of the claim that they were disposed of in a local river never to be seen again. Utterly impossible.

[Hannover]

Roberto said:

" the cremation remains were crushed and ground and transported to a nearby river"

But denies it by saying:

"As to my supposed assertion that 1,250,000 corpses were ground "into dust", it can be found nowhere in my above-quoted statement.

So where are the devices which did all this work? Please show us such devices, please explain how they supposedly worked, Roberto.

Roberto cites the highly discredited Miklos Nyisli:

"One of my sources as concerns disposal of cremation remains is the testimony of Doctor Miklos Nyiszli,"

Below is just a taste of what this Dr. Nyiszli said:

- Miklos Nyiszli said 6,000,000 died at Auschwitz, from “Auschwitz Doctor”. Ah yes, the impossible ever changing story,

- Nyiszli said Auschwitz was in Germany, not Poland.

- Nyiszli said gas chambers were 200 meters long and could kill 20,000 a day! Utterly impossible, laughable, and unsubstantiated; and the story has been changed to equally absurd numbers

- Nyiszli said 5,000 people a day were eliminated in open air hearths There is no physical evidence, massive open air hearths not shown on wartime aerial photos

- Nyiszli describes the color of the Zyklon crystals as "mauve."

- Nyiszli said the crematoriums spewed flames & massive amounts of smoke, day & night Impossible unless there is a catastrophic fire, aerial photos show no such thing

- Nyiszli said hair was shaved, but then said he could smell it being burned off the heads of dead Jews

- Nyiszli said the healthiest would collapse from hunger in 3-5 weeks, then talks of prisoners who had been there 3-5 years

- Nyiszli said the sick were supposedly selected for gassing, but it's known that the Germans worked years to find to cure for noma (common among Gypsies) in order to help sick Gypsies at Auschwitz. It's also known that the Germans provided health facilities for sick Jews

- Nyiszli said Sonderkommandos (alleged cremation/gas chamber helpers) were killed after ‘learning too much’, claimed they had a life span of 2 months ... then how did so many write laughable books?
Not to mention the countless numbers who were transported out of Auschwitz, or the endless numbers of so called Auschwitz "survivors".
Particularly curious given the claim that 'the Germans tried to kill every Jew they could get their hands on'.

a must read:
http://codoh.com/library/document/699/
The Amazing Claims of Miklos Nyiszli
by Joseph Bellinger

I also notice Roberto's dodge of my demonstrated contradictions about alleged massive human remains at Auschwitz by the purveyors of the absurd narrative.

More to come.

- Hannover

"The Holocaust lie has been both the spiritual and financial wellspring of modern Jewish power, and for this reason it is clear why the Jewish Establishment holds onto this lie with a tenacity bordering on insanity."

[roberto]

Roberto said:

" the cremation remains were crushed and ground and transported to a nearby river"

But denies it by saying:

"As to my supposed assertion that 1,250,000 corpses were ground "into dust", it can be found nowhere in my above-quoted statement.

Ground doesn't mean ground "into dust", as I explained. And I didn't say anything about 1,250,000 corpses. The figure I accept is slightly below one million.

So where are the devices which did all this work? Please show us such devices, please explain how they supposedly worked, Roberto.

I remember there's a drawing by Olère showing the wooden logs used to crush the remains. But weren't we talking about what was done with the remains after crushing?

Roberto cites the highly discredited Miklos Nyisli:

"One of my sources as concerns disposal of cremation remains is the testimony of Doctor Miklos Nyiszli,"

Below is just a taste of what this Dr. Nyiszli said:

- Miklos Nyiszli said 6,000,000 died at Auschwitz, from “Auschwitz Doctor”. Ah yes, the impossible ever changing story,

- Nyiszli said Auschwitz was in Germany, not Poland.

- Nyiszli said gas chambers were 200 meters long and could kill 20,000 a day! Utterly impossible, laughable, and unsubstantiated; and the story has been changed to equally absurd numbers

- Nyiszli said 5,000 people a day were eliminated in open air hearths There is no physical evidence, massive open air hearths not shown on wartime aerial photos

- Nyiszli describes the color of the Zyklon crystals as "mauve."

- Nyiszli said the crematoriums spewed flames & massive amounts of smoke, day & night Impossible unless there is a catastrophic fire, aerial photos show no such thing

- Nyiszli said hair was shaved, but then said he could smell it being burned off the heads of dead Jews

- Nyiszli said the healthiest would collapse from hunger in 3-5 weeks, then talks of prisoners who had been there 3-5 years

- Nyiszli said the sick were supposedly selected for gassing, but it's known that the Germans worked years to find to cure for noma (common among Gypsies) in order to help sick Gypsies at Auschwitz. It's also known that the Germans provided health facilities for sick Jews

- Nyiszli said Sonderkommandos (alleged cremation/gas chamber helpers) were killed after ‘learning too much’, claimed they had a life span of 2 months ... then how did so many write laughable books?
Not to mention the countless numbers who were transported out of Auschwitz, or the endless numbers of so called Auschwitz "survivors".
Particularly curious given the claim that 'the Germans tried to kill every Jew they could get their hands on'.

a must read:
http://codoh.com/library/document/699/
The Amazing Claims of Miklos Nyiszli
by Joseph Bellinger

Pressac quotes only a part of Nyiszli's book starting under http://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0473.shtml, which doesn't contain all the claims attributed to him by Hannover, especially as concerns numbers. If Nyiszli made such claims, this would mean that Pressac assessed him all the more correctly when he wrote the following:

I have taken from Dr Nyiszli’s book only Chapter Seven, describing the gassing of a convoy at Krematorium II, this being one of the best-known accounts. Many details can easily be verified using contemporary documents. The description is entirely accurate, EXCEPT for certain FIGURES which are very WRONG indeed.

I must admit that the stark contrast between the general precision of the account and enormous errors that it contains led me to think at first that the translator [into French], Mr Tibère KREMER, must be at fault.

Through the intermediary of Serge Klarsfeld, the Yad Vashem provided me with a photocopy of the first Hungarian edition of 1946, apparently published by the author. I checked in the original text to make sure the figures were correct. This enabled me to see that the translator was definitely not at fault. The fact remains, however, that certain figures in the original are quite wrong. Unless and until any further information comes to light, we can but attribute these errors to Dr Nyiszli.

Anyway, whatever it was that Nyiszli got wrong, it doesn't change the fact that his testimony concurs with that of Höss as concerns the disposal of cremation remains into the Vistula. The possibility that one knew about the other's testimony can be safely ruled out, so here we have two independent testimonies mentioning a method to get rid of cremation remains that wouldn't leave many such remains on site. This renders Hannover's comments about the "ash pond" irrelevant bar eyewitness testimonies mentioning such pond.

I also notice Roberto's dodge of my demonstrated contradictions about alleged massive human remains at Auschwitz by the purveyors of the absurd narrative.

What "contradictions"? The sources referred to by Hannover are secondary sources at best. Nyiszli and Hoess are primary sources, so what they said counts for more than what is claimed by any secondary source. If there were eyewitnesses who mentioned an "ash pond" as the main destination of cremation remains, we could talk about contradictions.

[Mulegino1]

There is no trace of physical remains for tens of thousands of murder victims (let alone close to a million) at Auschwitz-Birkenau by any means, much less by exposure to HCN, the effective ingredient in the commercially available pesticide, Zyklon-B. As a matter of fact, there are none. And by the way, a cenotaph does not equate to evidence for mass murder, nor does a tendentious historian's statistic. There are not, nor have there ever have been, any trace of human remains commensurate with the over two hundred thousand range at AB, much less of over one million.

There is no hard, physical evidence for any homicidal gas chamber at Auschwitz-Birkenau. There are positively abundant traces of state of the art delousing facilities which employed Zyklon-B and which had powerful circulatory and extraction fans and which had automation which extracted the Zyklon-B pellets from the canisters and exposed them to the heated air from hot air blowers. And to corroborate this, there are abundant traces of Iron-Cyanide in the brickwork of the delousing chambers and none in the brickwork of the alleged gas chambers.

When you form a false narrative, be sure that the veracious true narrative can be diverted. Fortunately, this is not the case for Auschwitz-Birkenau. The idea that the Germans would be alternately so technically advanced with their state of the art fumigation technology and so incredibly stupid and inept - with their alleged holes in the roof (which did not, incidentally, exist) and their pouring of pesticide pellets onto the cold, unheated floors of underground morgues with minimal ventilation beggars the imagination.

[Hannover]

As expected, Roberto has dodged the statements by Nyiszli which debunk every thing he says Auschwitz.
ex:
Roberto said:

The figure I accept is slightly below one million.

Yet his very own Nyiszli said 6,000,000 were killed at Auschwitz.

Roberto said:

I remember there's a drawing by Olère showing the wooden logs used to crush the remains. But weren't we talking about what was done with the remains after crushing?

So the Germans organized a 'log bone crushing' parties everyday to make dust out of dead countless Jews? Seriously?
No such sights on the aerial photos.
Laughable, to say the least.

And this is the same liar Olere that Roberto cited also who drew this:

Which depicts an impossible 'flaming crematorium, hell on earth' scene, as I stated previously.
Never seen in the aerial photos.

Roberto said:

Anyway, whatever it was that Nyiszli got wrong, it doesn't change the fact that his testimony concurs with that of Höss as concerns the disposal of cremation remains into the Vistula. The possibility that one knew about the other's testimony can be safely ruled out, so here we have two independent testimonies mentioning a method to get rid of cremation remains that wouldn't leave many such remains on site. This renders Hannover's comments about the "ash pond" irrelevant bar eyewitness testimonies mentioning such pond.

Only with the 'holocau$t' scam does easily debunking a major part it count as being 'irrelevant'.
"Independent" not.
There was no problem in getting Hoess to say whatever the 'Allies wanted, torture works like a charm. Off topic to this thread, but see here for demolition of the Hoess's' forced 'testimony':

'How to explain Rudolf Höss' Nuremberg testimony'
forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10182

Roberto dodges again:

What "contradictions"? The sources referred to by Hannover are secondary sources at best. Nyiszli and Hoess are primary sources, so what they said counts for more than what is claimed by any secondary source. If there were eyewitnesses who mentioned an "ash pond" as the main destination of cremation remains, we could talk about contradictions.

IOW, the official Auschwitz Theme Park citation I gave just doesn't count, the actual photos just don't count, the NY Times just doesn't count, so called "Auschwitz survivors" just don't count .... to Roberto that is.
Only the religious fail to see what is right before their eyes.

Here's another challenge to Roberto. He said:

Regarding cremation remains found in the former camp's soil, my source is Piper, as above, note 39 on page 179:
"In 1965, Hydrokop, a chemical mining enterprise based in Krakow, was commissioned by the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum to carry out geological tests at Birkenau aimed at determining the locations of incineration pits and pyres. Specialists of Hydrokop bored 303 holes up to 3 m deep. Traces of human ashes, bones, and hair turned up in 42 sites. Documentation of all the holes and the diagrams of their distribution are preserved in the Conservation Department of the Museum."

No surprise here, Roberto is citing another fraud.
At the 'Hydrokop' website:
http://www.laborgeo.krakow.pl/eng/about.html
There is no mention of this alleged Auschwitz 'Hydrokop' Report. It would be a big deal IF it true.
The 'Hydrokop Report' is a fraud. If it had any merit at all we would be seeing it, not merely hearing about it. If it had any merit we would find it readily available.

So Roberto, produce your claimed Auschwitz 'Hydrokop Report'.
No dodging.

- Hannover

Why have supremacist Jews have been marketing the '6,000,000' lie since at least 1869?
http://balder.org/judea/New-York-Times- ... e-1869.php
https://6millionfairytale.wordpress.com ... -is-a-lie/

[roberto]

holocaustredcross.jpg

I don't really know how you can claim there was never an official figure. Unless you want to throw everything we say into the frying pan that is.

There is no such thing as an "official" figure in historical research, at least on this side of the former Iron Curtain. Every figure is subject to revision as more and/or better evidence becomes available. The death toll of AB was generally assumed to be about 1.1 million until Gerlach and Aly found a document showing that the number of Hungarian Jews selected as laborers was much higher than hitherto assumed. See the blog under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.pt/2009/12/number-of-hungarian-jews-gassed-in.html for details.

Average cremains of human cremations are about 4lbs. My maths aren't that good but I think my figures stand up. Check and revise if you want to. I don't accept your assertion that people were murdered as soon as they came into the camp.

The quantities of cremated people could have been done away with in the time frame but not completely and to this day there would be huge amounts of remains to be found in the area. They aren't though.

I think you meant to say "could not" instead of "could". We'll see about that below.

I've never met a holocaustian promoter who isn't a zionist and vice versa.

A great many criminal investigators, historians and other researchers who have looked into Nazi crimes (I dare say the majority) are/were non-Jewish Germans, Brits, Americans etc. I have no idea what they could possibly have to do with Zionism. I for my part couldn't care less about Zionism. In fact, I think that the way Israeli Jews treat Palestinians is not much different from the former apartheid state in South Africa, which never had my sympathies. But that doesn't mean I have to nod to the denial of proven historical facts.

Edit: checking my abacus I think I mean 2000 tons of human remains. However it doesn't change the impossibility of the claim that they were disposed of in a local river never to be seen again. Utterly impossible.

2,000 tons would be 400 five-ton truckloads. Why shouldn't it have been possible to take 400 truckloads of cremation remains to the Vistula within more than two years?

Your number seems to assume a very thorough cremation, by the way. Let's assume a rather incomplete cremation, like that of the rabbit shown in my blog under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.pt/2016/05/mattognos-cremation-encyclopedia-part-2_25.html, whose leftover mass is 16.97 % of the original mass. Let's assume an average weight of 45 kg per deportee killed on arrival or inmate, considering that the former included many children on the one hand and were mostly (Western Europe, Germany, Protectorate, Hungary) more or less well-fed on the other. 1 million people would thus have a mass of 45 million kg. The leftover mass after cremation would be 16.97 % of that, 7,636,500 kg or about 7,600 tons. 1,527 five-ton truckloads, at least 750 days to get the job done. Two truckloads per day. Any problem with that?

Let's take the peak time. Hungarian operation mid-May to mid-July 1944. About 300,000 Jews gassed, weighing 13,500 tons, leftover mass about 2,300 tons. 458 truckloads, at least 60 days to do the job (actually longer as fewer transports arrived after mid-July 1944 and the gassings stopped altogether in October or November). 8 truckloads per day to the Vistula. Why wouldn't that be doable?

Now, what would happen after the cremation remains had been shoveled into the river? Would they float? Not for long I think, bone fragments would rather go under. So how could one recognize such remains?

This doesn't rule out the possibility that there still are significant amounts of cremation remains buried in the soil of AB. The Hydrokop drillings in 1965 suggest that this is so. Unfortunately there have been no similar endeavors since, otherwise we would know more.

[Hannover]

Roberto is grossly 'uninformed'.



Number of Alleged Dead in Auschwitz:

9,000,000 Cited by the French documentary, Night and Fog, which has been shown to millions of school students worldwide.

8,000,000 The French War Crime Research Office, Doc. 31, 1945.

7,000,000 Also cited by the French War Crime Research Office.

6,000,000 Cited in the book “Auschwitz Doctor” by Miklos Nyiszli. It has since been proven that this book is a fraud and the "doctor" was never even at Auschwitz, even though the book is often cited by historians.
Nyiszli is cited by Roberto earlier in this thread as giving credible 'holocaust' testimony.

5,000,000 to 5,500,000 Cited in 1945 at the trial of Auschwitz commander Rudolf Hoess, based on his “confession” which was written in English, a language he never spoke.

5,000,000 Cited on April 20, 1978 by the French daily, Le Monde. Also cited on January 23, 1995 by the German daily Die Welt. By September 1, 1989, Le Monde reduced the figure to 1,433,000.

4,500,000 In 1945 this figure was cited by another witness at the aforementioned Hoess trial.

4,000,000 Cited by a Soviet document of May 6, 1945 and officially acknowledged by the Nuremberg War Crimes trial. This figure was also reported in The New York Times on April 18, 1945, although 50 years later on January 26, 1995 (see below), The New York Times and The Washington Post slashed the figure to 1,500,000 citing new findings by the Auschwitz Museum officials. In fact, the figure of 4,000,000 was later repudiated by the Auschwitz museum officials in 1990 (see below) but the figure of 1,500,000 victims was not formally announced by Polish President Lech Walesa until five years after the Auschwitz historians had first announced their discovery.

3,500,000 Cited in the 1991 edition of the Dictionary of the French Language and by Claude Lanzmann in 1980 in his introduction to Filip Muller's book, “Three Years in an Auschwitz Gas Chamber.”

3,000,000 Cited in a forced confession by Rudolf Hoess, the Auschwitz commander who said this was the number of those who had died at Auschwitz prior to Dec. 1, 1943. Later cited in the June 7, 1993 issue of Heritage, the most widely read Jewish newspaper in California, even though three years previously the authorities at the Auschwitz museum had scaled down the figure to a minimum of 1,100,000 and a maximum of 1,500,000. (see below).

2,500,000 Cited by a famous "witness to the Holocaust," Rudolf Vrba, when he testified on July 16, 1981 for the Israeli government's war crimes trial of former SS official Adolf Eichmann.

2,000,000 Cited by no less than three famous Holocaust historians, including Leon Poliakov (1951) writing in “Harvest of Hate”; Georges Wellers, writing in 1973 in “The Yellow Star at the Time of Vichy”; and Lucy Dawidowicz, writing in 1975 in “The War Against the Jews.”

2,000,000 to 4,000,000 Cited by Israeli historian Yehuda Bauer in 1982 in his book, “A History of the Holocaust.” However, by 1989 Bauer revised his figures and determined that the actual number was lower: 1,600,000.

1,600,000 This is a 1989 revision by Israeli historian Yehuda Bauer of his earlier figure in 1982 of 2,000,000 to 4,000,000, Bauer cited this new figure on September 22, 1989 in The Jerusalem Post, at which time he wrote' 'The larger figures have been dismissed for years, except that it hasn't reached the public yet."

1,500,000 In 1995 this was the “official" number of Auschwitz deaths announced by Polish President Lech Walesa as determined by the historians at the Auschwitz museum. This number was inscribed on the monument at the Auschwitz camp at that time, thereby "replacing" the earlier 4,000,000 figure that had been formally repudiated (and withdrawn from the monument) five years earlier in 1990. At that time, on July 17, 1990 The Washington Times reprinted a brief article from The London Daily Telegraph citing the "new" figure of 1,500,000 that had been determined by the authorities at the Auschwitz museum. This new figure was reported two years later in a UPI report published in the New York Post on March 26, 1992. On January 26, 1995 both The Washington Post and The New York Times cited this 1,500,000 figure as the new "official" figure (citing the Auschwitz Museum authorities).

1,471,595 This is a 1983 figure cited by historian Georges Wellers who (as noted previously) had determined, writing in 1973, that some 2,000,000 had died. In his later calculation, Wellers decided that of the 1,471,595 who had died at Auschwitz, 1,352,980 were Jews.

1,433,000 This figure was cited on September 1, 1989 by the French daily, Le Monde, which earlier, on April 20, 1978, had cited the figure at 4,000,000.

1,250,000 In 1985, historian Raul Hilberg arrived at this figure in his book, “The Destruction of the European Jews.” According to Hilberg, of those dead, some 1,000,000 were Jews.

1,100,000 to 1,500,000 Sources for this estimate are historians Yisrael Gutman and Michael Berenbaum (later of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum) in their 1984 book, “Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp”; also Dr. Franciszek Piper, the curator of the Auschwitz Museum, writing a chapter in that book. This estimate was later also cited by Walter Reich, former director of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, writing in The Washington Post on September 8, 1998. The upper figure of 1,500,000 thus remains the "official" figure as now inscribed at Auschwitz, with the earlier figure of 4,000,000 having been removed from the memorial at the site of the former concentration camp.

1,000,000 Jean-Claude Pressac, writing in his 1989 book “Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers.” This is interesting since he wrote his book to repudiate so-called "Holocaust deniers" who were called that precisely because they had questioned the numbers of those who had died at Auschwitz.

900,000 Reported on August 3, 1990 11, by Aufbau, a Jewish newspaper in New York.

800,000 to 900,000 Reported by Gerald Reitlinger in his 1953 book, “The Final Solution.” This figure is notable, considering the fact that it reduces the Auschwitz death total from the 4,000,000 figure that was widely in vogue in 1953.

775,000 to 800,000 Jean-Claude Pressac's revised figure, put forth in his 1993 book, “The Crematoria of Auschwitz: The Mass Murder's Machinery”, scaling down the figure from Pressac's 1989 claim of 1,000,000 dead. At this juncture, Pressac said that of the new number, 630,000 were Jews.

630,000 to 710,000 In 1994 Pressac scaled his figure down somewhat further; this is the figure cited in the German language translation of Pressac's 1993 book originally published in French. Again, this is substantially less than Pressac's 1989 figure of 1,000,000.

73,137 This figure was reported in The New York Times on March 3, 1991 and was based entirely on the wartime German concentration camp records that had been captured by the Soviets and just recently released. According to this figure, of those dead, 38,031 were Jews. These records state that the total of all persons who died in the ENTIRE German prison camp system from 1935 to 1945 were 403,713. To repeat: a total of 403,713 persons of all races and religions was officially recorded to have died (of all causes. typhus, old age, measles, etc.-and execution) in the entire prison camp system over a 10 year period. Of those 403,713 a total of 73,137 died at Auschwitz. Of those 73,137 who died at Auschwitz, 38,031 were Jews.

And of course Frijhof Meyers alleged 500,000.

much more at:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7281

- Hannover

The 'holocaust' narrative doesn't hold up to scientific & rational scrutiny so the usual enemies of free speech call for more censorship of the internet.

[Hieldner]

John Ball referred to the Hydrokop report in Air Photo Evidence:

Some time ago the Polish firm Hydrokop carried out drillings in Birkenau at the sites where, according to witnesses, mass graves and/or burning pits had been located. A few parts of the report based on these drillings have been published by U. Walendy in Historische Tatsachen No. 60, Verlag für Volkstum und Zeitgeschichtsforschung, Vlotho 1993. According to this report, charred wood as well as bones and hair were found at some points. A correct interpretation, however, would require access to the entire report. Also, the fragments of the report which are available fail to specify the exact location of the drill sites.

https://codoh.com/library/document/919/#ftn30

Udo Walendy’s Historische Tatsachen No. 60 is available here. The Auschwitz museum sent 2 pages of the 40 page report to Walendy (pp. 7 f.), wherein schematic drawings of 10 drillings are shown, 2 of which contained hair with charred wood and 1 of which contained bones. (Why did the Nazis take great care to not burn the hair?) Walendy’s analysis is exhaustive and very good, maybe somebody can translate it for the forum. There’s nothing about these drillings that contradicts the revisionist theses. The unwillingness by the Auschwitz museum authorities to show the complete report demonstrates their scientific and ethical bankruptcy.

[CognitiveDestruction]

I know this is slightly off topic, but Roberto, you really shouldn't be complaining about having a few ad-hominems thrown at you. You've dished out way more insults to revisionists for no reason in your blog articles over the years.

[Hannover]

John Ball referred to the Hydrokop report in Air Photo Evidence:

Some time ago the Polish firm Hydrokop carried out drillings in Birkenau at the sites where, according to witnesses, mass graves and/or burning pits had been located. A few parts of the report based on these drillings have been published by U. Walendy in Historische Tatsachen No. 60, Verlag für Volkstum und Zeitgeschichtsforschung, Vlotho 1993. According to this report, charred wood as well as bones and hair were found at some points. A correct interpretation, however, would require access to the entire report. Also, the fragments of the report which are available fail to specify the exact location of the drill sites.

https://codoh.com/library/document/919/#ftn30

Udo Walendy’s Historische Tatsachen No. 60 is available here. The Auschwitz museum sent 2 pages of the 40 page report to Walendy (pp. 7 f.), wherein schematic drawings of 10 drillings are shown, 2 of which contained hair with charred wood and 1 of which contained bones. (Why did the Nazis take great care to not burn the hair?) Walendy’s analysis is exhaustive and very good, maybe somebody can translate it for the forum. There’s nothing about these drillings that contradicts the revisionist theses. The unwillingness by the Auschwitz museum authorities to show the complete report demonstrates their scientific and ethical bankruptcy.

" wherein schematic drawings of 10 drillings are shown ... "

Drawings? Seriously?
Why not just take pictures of the alleged drillings?
Because they never happened, that's why.

Why is there no verifiable laboratory analysis / confirmation of the alleged human remains?
Because the entire matter is a fraud.

And indeed, Hieldner, the alleged burning of massive numbers of corpses, but the Germans went out of their way to avoid burning the hair? Laughable to say the least.
The entire matter is poorly faked, no matter how you look at it.

That's why they sent Walendy only 2 faked pages, because, again, the claimed 'Hydrokop report' is a fraud.

And that's why Roberto, nor anyone else, can show us the 'Hydrokop report'.

Roberto Muehlenkamp has been busted on his fraudulent claims ... yet again.

- Hannover

We're talking about an alleged '6M Jews & 5M others' ... 11,000,000.
There is not a single verifiable excavated enormous mass grave with contents actually SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, 1,250,000 at Auschwitz, or 250,000 at Sobibor, 34,000 at Babi Yar) even though Jews claim they still exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.

[Hieldner]

Why not just take pictures of the alleged drillings?
Because they never happened, that's why.

I don’t want to dispute the ability of these people to dig holes in the ground, but the whole matter is, as you say, clearly fraudulent.

Here you find the homepage of Hydrokop: http://www.laborgeo.krakow.pl/eng/about.html.

And a description of their history:

Our name and address:
Przedsiębiorstwo Usług Geologiczno - Laboratoryjnych CHEMKOP - LABORGEO, Spółka z.oo, 31-261 Kraków, Wybickiego 7
...
CHEMKOP-LABORGEO is a professional consulting engineering firm. Our projects include a wide range of environmental and geotechnical services. To find out more about what we can do for you, explore our site.
...
Our specialists hold Certificates from the Ministry of the Environmental Protection, Natural Resources and Forestry/formerly State Geology Authority (3 Hydrogeologists, 3 Engigineering Geologists, 2 Geology Technicians) and Drilling Certificate from the District Mining Office in Kraków concerning drilling management of boreholes to a depth of 300m.

History and background
Our roots go back to Hydrokop Experimental Station established in 1967. In 1974, the Station was reorganised into CHEMKOP Research and Development Centre of the Ministry of Chemical Resources Mining.

Amongst other things, the CHEMKOP's qualified team of geologists performed the following:
...
In 1990 the geological department of CHEKOP was privatised and established as CHEMKOP-LABORGEO Ltd. The geologists being employed previously in Hydrokop and CHEMKOP are the main body of CHEMKOP-LABORGEO professionals.

Hydrokop made the boring project in 1965 and was founded in 1967. (Needs a quite specific religion)

https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?p=12201#p12201

How many of these frauds are we supposed to accept?

Sensitive Roberto lamented:

Terms like "excuse" and "blows up in his face" go in the direction of ad hominem rhetoric.

While on his circlejerk blog https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... s-den.html the comments read like this:

Silly denier borjastick… The ever dumb "Hannover"… Deniers just can't stop lying… Roberto challenged the chimps… Some other chimp brings up Karski… the intellectually challenged borjastick… Denial is a religion after all… Deniers are a bunch of incompetent falsifiers.