Bad Arolsen files - the end of Revisionism?

[Haldan]

With most of the 16 miles of papers stored in Bad Arolsen now available to researchers and journalists, I am curious as to what posters here think the future of Revisionism is?

Just looking through the forum here, people seem to be mentioning quite a number of theories without mentioning that these theories are completely contradicted by the files carefully compiled by the Nazis themselves.

For instance - Nazis detailed the names of prisoners arriving in camps, and also detailed how those prisoners died. If you are not aware of this material - I suggest checking into it as soon as possible!

I highlighted your text above. I wish to know in exactly what way this would be compromising for revisionist efforts and research? What you suggest above actually HELPS the revisionist position and in no way would this restrain it.
I challenge you to produce one document from the Bad Arolsen in which it is stated that a prisoner died from asphyxiation from whatever is your favorite gas. And I do not mean accidental deaths - but malicious ones where the Germans are alleged to have shoved the prisoner into a bunker, barn, modified structure for "homicidal uses", et c. I think you get my drift.

Regards,
-haldan

[Saigon]

Hi Haldan,

That is an interesting response, and I thank you for it.

The Bad Arolsen files appear to provide absolute and incontrovertible proof that Nazis did murder some 11- 12 million people, of whom around 6 million were Jews. (I understand that researchers will soon publish what should become a kind of standard death toll based on these files). In general, I suspect this will mean the end of the extreme end of Holocaust Denial, and thus should also help to move the debate into more interesing and productive areas.

As you can see in the video provided, cause of death was usually recorded. In other words, where prisoners were shot, gassed or died of disease - this is recorded by the Germans themselves. My understanding is that this is the case throughout the war and up until a few months before liberation, as during the last few months of the war the record taking becomes less complete.

Put it this way - remember the old joke that some Revisionist would pay $1,000 for the name of a Jew gassed during the Holocaust?

Complete and absolute German camp records now mean anyone with some time on their hands might stand to earn $1,000,000 or so!!!

[polishheritage]

I haven't made many posts but I had to put a response to the claims of the person who started this thread. Simply utilize the search function of this website and its forum and you will see a complete dissection of the Bad Arolsen files and the silly Judeo-supremacist propaganda that has sprung up around these files as the Zionists seek to cleverly hide the fact that the Bad Arolsen files are actually a thorough refutation of the main exaggerations and false claims of the holohoax myth (i.e. the "6 million" killed, the alleged homicidal "gas chambers", etc).

In fact the administer of the Bad Arolsen files Udo Jost clearly stated when asked: http://www.codoh.com/incon/incontrip.html

unfortunately, we cannot reference a single document listing the death of a detainee due to gassing by Zyklon-B. As a rule, the Nazis gave other causes of death for inmates, who perished in the concentration camps.

With kind regards,

U. Jost Archival Manager

So even the archival manager of the Bad Arolsen admits they have ZERO documents mentioning anything about homicidal "gas chambers" and he simply tries to cleverly explains this away by saying basically "oh you have to understand the Nazis put down other causes for the deaths for those they killed in the gas chambers". Quick question since these were the Nazis own personal archives and records, why would they seek to hide an alleged "extermination plan" or the supposed existence of the mythical homicidal "gas chambers"?! The Nazis obviously did not expect these records to fall into other peoples hands or else what was the purpose of even maintaining them at all? This shows clearly that there was no "holocaust" and the "gas chambers" are a fraud and war propaganda picked up by the Zionists and their cabal today.

[Hegwood]

These archives were supposed to document the most horrendous crime of all time, the intentional murder of six million innocent human beings.
The following are quotes from one of the first news articles about the research discoveries in these archives, an Associated Press article of Thursday, June 26, 2008
Scholars Make Finds in Nazi Archive by Arthur Max. There is absolutely no mention in the article of a record of anyone being killed.

From prison brothels to slave labor camps, 15 scholars concluded a two-week probe Thursday of an untapped repository of millions of Nazi records, and hailed it as a rich vein of raw material that will deepen the study of the Holocaust.
It was the first concentrated academic sweep of the long-private archive administered by the International Tracing Service since it opened its doors last November to Holocaust survivors victims relatives and historical researchers.
...
Among the striking revelations was the identification of the man who rescued an 8-year-old boy in Buchenwald, Israel Meir Lau, who later became Israel's chief rabbi.
Lau had said his rescuer was a person called Fyodor from Rostow. Kenneth Waltzer of Michigan State University found it was Fyodor Michajlitschenko, 18, arrested by the Gestapo in 1943, who gave the small boy ear warmers and treated him like a father in Block 8 until the camp's liberation.
...
Jessica Anderson Hughes of Rutgers University discovered that prostitutes servicing other prisoners in concentration camp brothels often came from ordinary backgrounds - exploding the myth that most had been prostitutes before their arrest.
Hughes said the lists in Bad Arolsen allowed her to attach names to the prisoner-prostitutes at Buchenwald, one of the largest concentration camps which had one of eight known brothels for prisoners.
With the names she could look up incarceration records - and she found some women were married, some single, some were mothers. The records said many were arrested for petty theft or other minor crime.
"We always portrayed them as volunteers, but I wanted to know why they volunteered," she said. She believed the prostitutes faced "a choiceless choice.

Let me emphasis, the above are noteable discoveries in archives that were going to prove beyond any reasonable doubt the Nazis murdered 6 million Jews.

It seems that the mass news media has quietely dropped any further coverage of such astounding documentation of the holocaust.

The International Tracing Service in Bad Arolsen maintains a website. For a few years following the release of the documents they maintained a summary of some of the on going research projects. In the couple of years that I went back and reviewed them I found absolutely no mention of simple murder much less mass murder. Most of the projects were in the vein of the above findings. I quit following them after a while. On a recent visit to the site, I found it redesigned and could find no mention of current or past research findings.

[Hegwood]

Saigon,

For whatever reason I did not see your last post before I made my previous post.

Go back to the CBS news video you posted a link to. The video's title is a falsehood. These were not Hitler's secret files. I don't know when eleven Allied governments came together and made a treaty that kept the files secret for over 50 years but it is certain that Hitler was long since dead by then. The Allies Secret Files would be a more appropriate name. Who were the Allies trying to conceal this information from? They were interested in exposing Nazi war crimes and criminals not protecting them.

Note the date on the video. It is almost five years old. The files have been available for almost four years now. What are they waiting on? Where is this devasting documentation that is going to end revisionism?

Last night I came accross a WWII US Army video of the execution of some Nazi spies. I don't know how many there were, I quit watching after about half a dozen. It seems they were executing at about the rate of one every 90 seconds. I don't know if it Roosevelt's birthday are not.

[ginger]

I thought the video clip from CBS was a retelling of the survivor stories, and also a repetition of the usual narrative about what happened to people. I expect that after a year or so of study there will be evidence that will upset the usual narrative of the Holocaust, but I doubt that such evidence will get much news coverage.

The best evidence presented in the video was the execution book listing people who were shot. The report asserted that the executions were done on Hitler's birthday as a birthday present to him. This is certainly sinister, but I doubt that this is the whole story.

For the most part, the video makers took liberties with the evidence. For example, Paul Shapiro, employed by the U.S. Holocaust Musuem, was asked why the Nazis kept such detailed records. Shapiro seemed to know the answer - the reason was to show that the Nazis could get the job done. The job, the extermination of the jews, is a foregone conclusion. Hopefully the archive will reveal facts that will challenge the foregone conclusion.

[SevenUp]

The Bad Arolsen files appear to provide absolute and incontrovertible proof that Nazis did murder some 11- 12 million people, of whom around 6 million were Jews.

What's with the complete idiocy? In less circumspect times keepers of the Bad Arolsen data produced an estimate of the number of prisoners who died in the camps, and the number they came up with was about 300,000 total for all camps. You can start your research with the documents and links on this page ....

http://www.holohoax101.com/102/

scroll down to the section on Bad Arolsen.

[Haldan]

Hi Haldan,

That is an interesting response, and I thank you for it.

The Bad Arolsen files appear to provide absolute and incontrovertible proof that Nazis did murder some 11- 12 million people, of whom around 6 million were Jews. (I understand that researchers will soon publish what should become a kind of standard death toll based on these files). In general, I suspect this will mean the end of the extreme end of Holocaust Denial, and thus should also help to move the debate into more interesing and productive areas.

As you can see in the video provided, cause of death was usually recorded. In other words, where prisoners were shot, gassed or died of disease - this is recorded by the Germans themselves. My understanding is that this is the case throughout the war and up until a few months before liberation, as during the last few months of the war the record taking becomes less complete.

Put it this way - remember the old joke that some Revisionist would pay $1,000 for the name of a Jew gassed during the Holocaust?

Complete and absolute German camp records now mean anyone with some time on their hands might stand to earn $1,000,000 or so!!!

I challenged you, according to the guidelines of this board, to produce ONE document which indicates that a inmate died of asphyxiation from whatever choice of gas you prefer to believe in. As you have claimed that Bad Arolsen contains this information it must be an easy task for you to respond to my simple challenge.
You have indicated that you have a fair bit of knowledge for what may be contained in this archive. You speak of records but you do not give any specifics.
I ask you for specifics: present one record where the death of an inmate is recorded and the cause of death is by gassing. Simple, huh?

Please, no more dodging.
-haldan

[Hannover]

"The end of Revisionism?" Don't make me laugh.

Saigon, you have been challenged by haldan, I repeat that challenge to you.

There is not single document or photo there which does anything to buttress the teetering '6m & gas chambers' scam. What they count on is prior conditioning. And notice yet more of the endless stream of so called 'survivors', Jews who were in labor/"death" camps and were not put to death even though the claim is that the Germans wanted to 'exterminate' every Jew they could get their hands on.
And, only 'approved researchers' have been, and will continue to be, the only ones allowed unfettered access. After all, an open, rational mind will see exactly what is NOT there and will be able to compare these records against other claims and shoot down lie after lie.

Saigon, I suggest you inform yourself before making such unsupportable claims about the Arolsen records.

From 'Bad Arolsen opened?'
posting.php?mode=quote&f=2&p=31991

I suggest you read the threads linked to as well in this quote.

The pathetic Arolsen nonsense has been demolished at this forum.

examples:

'Holocaust files to be opened, with conditions of course'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=3820

Unfortunately, we cannot reference a single document listing the death of a detainee due to gassing by Zyklon-B. As a rule, the Nazis gave other causes of death for inmates, who perished in the concentration camps.
With kind regards,

U. Jost
Archival Manager

'Nazis kept meticulous records of mass exterminations'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=4441

But the absurd claim is that the Germans tried to 'hide the evidence', that it was supposedly a state secret.

The Arolsen records, in spite of judeo-supremacist spin, show nothing that supports the absurd claims of '6,000,000 & gas chambers', zero.

The only recourse is for the 'holocaust' Industry to lie about the labor camps records....

Fact is, if the Arolson files would have contained information proving this so-called Holocaust happened, we would have been able to marvel at same long ago. This nonsense about a committee blocking access is just that, nonsense. And if now, after all those years, “evidence” appears, we should look at it very closely, for we know who is the custodian of those files now, the same people who invented this sordid tale.

For much more, use the forum search function for 'Arolsen'.

- Hannover

Now we await your 'proof', Saigon.

- Hannover

[Kingfisher]

Saigon:

You link to that video in support of your case? Except for the tendentious and misleading presentation where is there any support at all for the orthodox version? Apart from the new allegation that there were 17 million victims ( a figure I've never heard before, but, then "victim" is not defined), we learn (in horrified tones!) that:

- The Allies, not Hitler made the documents secret, allegedly because they could not cope with the scale of the enquiries.

- Gestapo arrest warrants were as lethal as a death sentence. That can only mean that everyone arrested by the Gestapo was killed, which is patently untrue.

- Prisoners were used for factory labour. Nothing strange about this. In fact Revisionists say this was a main motivation for deportations.

- Anne Frank died in Belsen. We are not told that she died in the typhus epidemic, nor that she spent about a year in Auschwitz, where she was not gassed.

- A group of prisoners were executed. We are not told why or whether they received a trial. 1 every 2 minutes for just over 90 minutes. Was this a daily occurrence or a rarity? We are told this was a special day, Hitler's birthday, so it was a "birthday present". Yeah, right. So that's 50 individuals of the 6, 11 or 17 million accounted for, but no gassing. The "bureaucracy of the devil".

- "We were amazed to see that the Nazis were keeping records of head lice... The Nazis couldn't have disease spreading among slave labourers." Well... no. Or anyone else for that matter. Why amazed? So disease control is a sign of fiendish efficiency and brutality?

- Presenter asks incredulously: "Why did the Nazis keep all these records, if they were going to murder these people anyway?" Yeah. We thought of that too. The suit from the USHMM then completely misinterprets the question and says it was important for them to show how efficiently they were getting the job (of murder) done.

- "The records make up the largest 'Holocaust archive' anywhere",but we have not yet [at 4 m 20s] been told anything at all to support a genocide by gassing allegation.

- We are told that at Auschwitz an interviewee "watched his parents herded to the gas chambers" but without any supporting evidence. Did he actually see them enter the gas chamber? How did he know it was a gas chamber? We are not told. We are not even told whether this was what he believed to be happening at the time or whether it is based on rumours in the camp or on what he heard later after the war. Of course, nobody bothered to ask him. He himself was "forced" to sign in at Buchenwald. Even a routine admin procedure becomes a brutality.

- "Hardly anyone got out of there (Dora) alive." Except Rassinier of course. At the end, Dora was very hard, though, with a high mortality rate, but what has any of this got to do with the alleged genocide of the Jews?

- Schwartz says,"There was this 14-year-old youngster and they wanted to kill him... I don't know why" Sorry? He's here now isn't he? They wanted him to go to Dora (not to kill him but to use his labour). They took him off the list. Maybe because of his age. No one knows. Not him. Not us.

- Walter Feiden's parents died in a ghetto. We are not told of what cause. We are treated to his understandable emotion on being shown his admission card to Buchenwald, but that is all.

- Feiden describes a person being left to die in a urinal channel. But this was done by the Block Senior - another prisoner. Unpleasant, I agree, but nothing to to do with the alleged Holocaust. Anyone who went through the war, from any community and on either side can find horrible stories to tell.

- Jack Rosenthal and the males in his family were separated from the women and children on the "Ramp" at Auschwitz. The women and children "went straight to the gas chambers and the ovens". Evidence please? We see the usual photos of the railway platform that prove nothing at all.

- Rosenthal tells us "the sky is aflame, the sky is burning.. you saw the flames leaping the sky [sic]... the stench was terrible, you smelt burning flesh". We all know that crematorium chimneys don't produce flames and never have. He's not necessarily lying. Did he know what burning flesh smelt like? He could have heard the stories so often since that he now thinks he saw it, or he could have seen the flares at the Monowitz chemical works, and chemical works do stink.

- "His family was burned that night." Evidence?

- "Incredibly [why?] the Nazis had bothered to create a form to keep track of Jack's mail at Buchenwald." Somehow they manage to present this as a token of fiendish German efficiency.

- "My whole family was wiped out." He never saw them again. They may well have died, but he can't know if, when or how.

- We see a picture of him looking emaciated when released, then we see his tattoo.


So, in the entire broadcast not one sentence, one word to confirm the Holocaust story. On the other hand, plenty to confirm a rigid. even harsh, internment and labour system, with a thorough disinfestation and anti-disease programme, which breaks down at the end of the war leading to large-scale deaths from typhus, etc.

Roll out those Bad Arolsen archives. If this is anything to go by they contain the proof Revisionists are looking for.

[edited for typos]

[Haldan]

Good reply, KingFisher !

-haldan

[The Warden]

Excellent reply KF.

This thread might as well be called Convergence V2.0. It didn't work the first time when Shermer tried it, and it's certainly no different now.
Piling a bunch of paperwork up and saying "Here's proof" doesn't cut it, especially when each individual paper has failed investigation already.
The Jewish supremacists found paperwork that backs up their lies, but since those lies have already been torn apart by dissecting the individual parts of the bigger lie, any support for them is rendered useless.

Unless you're pushing a type of religious-like victim industry which preys on the ignorant and emotional.

[borjastick]

I think young Saigon meant to title his thread;

Bad Arolsen files - the end of Traditionalism?

I am guessing by the way he blew in dissing this, that, and everything that he is from the dark side...

[Moderator]

Saigon,
You have been challenged to produce examples of files from Arolsen which prove what you say about those files. Until you at least attempt to do so you will not be permitted to post to this thread. Read the guidelines.
M1.

[Kladderadatsch]

- A group of prisoners were executed. We are not told why or whether they received a trial. 1 every 2 minutes for just over 90 minutes. Was this a daily occurrence or a rarity? We are told this was a special day, Hitler's birthday, so it was a "birthday present". Yeah, right. So that's 50 individuals of the 6, 11 or 17 million accounted for, but no gassing. The "bureaucracy of the devil".

From the first testimony of Josef Kramer, made (probably) sometime in spring of 1945:

Mauthausen. My next concentration camp was Mauthausen in Austria. This camp was just being built when I arrived. The Kommandant was Standartenführer Ziereis. Here I had the same rank as before. Whilst in this camp I was promoted to Obersturmführer. I think this was in January, 1939. . . .

The deaths that occurred were mostly from natural causes. . . . I do not know the number of prisoners when I left in 1940, but the camp was full. The strength was recorded every day, but I cannot remember now what the number was. Some of the prisoners were sent away to other camps. These transfers were made not according to the type of prisoners but according to the type of work we wanted done, and according to their trades. Whilst I was there, some people were released back to freedom. I cannot remember whether they were political prisoners or others, but I remember that on Hitler's birthday, 20th April, 1940, I saw 50 prisoners in the courtyard who were going to be released.

Auschwitz. I went to Auschwitz in May 1940. . . .

Of course this is just one more piece of witness testimony, with all the liabilities which that entails, and one could argue that seeing prisoners "who were going to be released" doesn't mean that those prisoners really were released. Still, it's an interesting detail, especially as it apparently was "volunteered" (that is, there's nothing in the testimony to indicate it was in response to a question or charge to the opposite effect). If there were indeed a custom of executing prisoners on Hitler's birthday, Kramer was bound to know it, and bound to know also that his British interrogators would know it. In that case, claiming the opposite--that prisoners were in fact released on that day--would be counterproductive; he'd immediately have been caught out in a lie. And yet here he is saying that he saw prisoners being released on Hitler's birthday . . . from Mauthausen . . . 50 at a time.

(Incidentally, Butz makes a persuasive, if not exactly watertight, case that Kramer's first statement can be trusted as an accurate statement of his real beliefs, since it was made before he "lawyered up" for his trial. As such, it is free from what Butz calls the "courtroom logic" of tactical admissions regarding the various predetermined "facts" under judicial notice, "facts" that it would have been "heroic . . . but also suicidal" to contest. In other words, Kramer's testimony was sincere, and he hoped and expected that it would exonerate him. See Butz, under Josef Kramer, 'Beast of Belsen'.)

Anyway, that one thing happened in April 1940 naturally doesn't mean that something else altogether didn't happen in April 1942, but Kramer's testimony makes for an interesting contrast all the same. As for the 1942 Totenbuch record, if I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that it doesn't seem too improbable that the SS might have used the symbolic value of the Fuehrer's birthday to send a message to prisoners by scheduling executions for enemies of the Reich on that date. (The notion that their doing so was as a "birthday present" for Hitler is something else again; is there any proof that the Fuehrer was informed? If not, how would it serve as present?) But then, the timing in this case might have just been a one-time coincidence/aberration. Are there any other examples? If the ITS archives are as damning (and as damningly complete) as the propagandists want us to believe, then there must be many others. Why just this one case from Mauthausen?