Legitimate Nazi Atrocities

[Kingfisher]

That story reminds me the story of Oradour-Sur-Glane in France where legitimate measures were quickly turned into atrocity propaganda (http://www.oradour.info/appendix/rikmen01.htm).

It's illegal to tell that side of the story in France. It's why Vincent Reynouard was sent to prison.

[Werd]

I think this link is relevant.
Nazis Punishing Nazis For Mistreating Jews
http://www.whale.to/c/nazis_punishing_nazis.html
One of the things on that page is a collection of screenshots from a now defunct youtube video stating a few examples of Nazis being punished for their zealous behaviour when dealing with Jews who were not even partisans. The account with that youtube video is now closed, and I have little reason to doubt the author just made those things up. I still wish the account was active so I could ask the user what his sources was.

Perhaps a reader on this board has seen that video or these screenshots before and knows what the video is talking about? Perhaps they have read about these cases elsewhere and can shed light on primary sources? Again, I am not denying these instances of Germans punishing Germans for bad behavior. I am just curious about sources. It would be great to have them backed up completely so they could be thrown in the faces of the gas chamber mongers.

[cold beer]

The worst that is denied by no one are probably the Einsatzgruppen shootings, though I agree that accurate numbers may never be known. We can say that many of them were partisans, and perhaps a large number may have been justifiable, but can we really say that they were all guilty? Just imagine if it were any other country that ran anti-partisan death squads like that, it would rightly be condemned. Some revisionists get a little too eager to defend Germany when they make justifications of the Einsatzgruppen policy. Like you said, it is easy to imagine alot of 'bad shootings' being swept under the rug.

I don't know much about this aspect of the 'holocaust'.
Is Einsatzgruppen a term the Germans actually used?
What was the Einsatzgruppen policy?
Have excavations of mass graves containing women and children proven to be murdered by Germans taken place?
I know that Poland and the Ukraine have some sort of joint commission that investigates mass grave sites, how many have they attributed to Einsatzgruppen?

[Werd]

If you want to find out more about the problems with the claims about the allegedly massive amounts of people that Einsatzgruppen are said to have killed and buried in how many supposed locations, read the chapter about the Einsatzgruppen in the Mattogno/Graf book "Treblinka." Either edition of that book would suffice to show the absurdities.

[hermod]

.
Is Einsatzgruppen a term the Germans actually used?

Yes, it is.

What was the Einsatzgruppen policy?

Securing the Eastern front for the German troops fighting there. That was mainly implemented by arresting and (sometimes) shooting the captured Partisans and Commissars and their collaborators.

Interviewer: You talk there of France, of Germany, but if one goes further eastward, it's Poland, the Generalgouvernement, and then, in regard to that country and Russia, the "Einsatzgrupen" have to be discussed. What do you say here?

Dr. Faurisson: It's above all in Russia that those police units operated. The war in the East was a savage one. The Soviet State had not signed on to the Geneva and Hague conventions and the Germans found themselves up against a partisan war. At the Soviet end there were no rights, no law. Thus could the Germans, when there'd been a group of partisans in a village, be led to destroy everything in it, even if there were women and children. German soldiers' safety was the paramount concern. With Germany at war, what German wife, what father or mother would have agreed that a husband or son should be liable to be killed by an individual in civilian dress shooting from behind, then slipping away? In such moments there inevitably came about instances of military savagery, acts as are displayed in similar circumstances by all the armies of the world. Coming back to my personal experience in France, I was able to see at work first the French soldier, then the German soldier, the Italian soldier, and, finally, the Canadian soldier, the British soldier and the American soldier. I, who, during the war, was so anti-German, must admit that I only ever saw extremely correct Germans; I can even mention some startling cases. When, afterwards, I saw the Americans arrive, I thought it was wonderful. Sure enough, many of them were likeable and well-behaved but there were also, amongst the American soldiers, NCOs and officers, some real louts. And then, on another score, I was especially distressed on seeing the horrors of the Big Purge. But here I'm getting off the subject.

Interviewer: You wanted to talk about the "Kommissarbefehl", the "Einsatzgruppen" and Babi Yar.

Dr. Faurisson: Yes, three parts of one same subject. We're told that there existed a "Kommissarbefehl", described as an order to kill systematically the Soviet political commissars who oversaw the troops, and here the occasion is seized to add that the "Einsatzgruppen's" task was to kill the Jews. It's false. First of all, there never existed any "Kommissarbefehl" as such. Some historians have acquired a habit of designating by this term a set of documents concerning the sorting of prisoners or of certain civilians just behind the front. The Einsatzgruppen, established at the time of the Anschluss in 1938, were assigned the job of this sorting. On the immense Russian front, they were a mere 3,000 (three thousand)?, drivers and clerks included. At the outset of the military campaign, they were given rigorous instructions. People should read these instructions. They amount to saying that, as the rules of war are unknown to the Soviets, a strict sorting of prisoners will be in order. Certain captives will have to be executed forthwith because they are not soldiers but fanaticised political commissars who cannot be left in prisoner-of-war camps; others will perhaps be useful to Germany. One document, labelled USSR-014 at the Nuremberg trial, spells out eight categories of suspect persons who must, after sorting, be separated (Aussonderung) from the military or civilian prisoners. It's interesting to note that the Jews are mentioned in eighth (and last) place; it's specified in this order of October 29, 1941, that only a category of Jews is concerned. I quote: "8) Soviet Russian and Jewish intellectuals, insofar as they are professional revolutionaries or political activists, authors, editors, Komintern officials etc.". With their customary dishonesty, the officials in charge of summarising the documents presumed to write that "those affected" "are above all Soviet commissars and other leading personalities, also Jews and members of the intelligentsia"; in their résumé they go so far as to write of "directives for the 'purging' by special commandos of the prisoner-of-war camps", whereas, let me repeat, for this document, it's a matter of "sorting". When the troops advance and take a town, the Einsatzgruppen, a kind of military police in the field, will have to try to check the identity of prisoners and civilians. This doesn't mean that these people are going to be killed. Only some of them will be slated for execution. On the other side, with the Communists, no bones were made about executions. Therefore in first place came the political commissars. Neither here nor elsewhere did there exist any order to kill the Jews.

Interviewer: Then, if I understand you correctly, these instructions didn't specify that all the political commissars were to be executed, even though the said commissars were mentioned first.

Dr. Faurisson: That's right. Often, it seems, those commissars were Jews; however, even in their case, there was a sorting to be carried out. But you'll understand well enough that, in practice, this meant there were prisoners that one had the right, in effect, to execute in contravention of the laws of war. Also, as you're perhaps aware, the German military commanders did not want to act like the Red Army and, in the end, refused to follow through with the harshest provisions of the orders in question. As for Babi Yar, no material investigation of the type carried out at Katyn during the war has been made there; nothing has surfaced to support the accounts generally heard on the subject, which seem implausible. I'll come back to Babi Yar.

Have excavations of mass graves containing women and children proven to be murdered by Germans taken place?

Father Desbois opened a mass grave at Busk, in a Jewish cemetry, but he didn't examine the bodies and then covered the mass grave with concrete.

I know that Poland and the Ukraine have some sort of joint commission that investigates mass grave sites, how many have they attributed to Einsatzgruppen?

None, as far as I know. In theory, no 'Holocaust' Einsatzgruppen mass grave is supposed to remain today anyway, as German special units supposedly exhumed all those mass graves and then burned to ashes all the bodies that were buried there (Sonderaktion 1005). That trick exempted the Soviets from having to provide any physical evidence of their crazy allegations.

[Werd]

While the topic was related to legitimate nazi atrocities, and punishments thereof were mentioned, the Einsatzgruppen were bound to come up. I will simply post a few old topics related to the Einsatzgruppen and refrain from mentioning them again.

"Alleged" Einsatzgruppen video

USHMM's bogus 'holocaust' einsatzgruppen film

Einsatzgruppen

Einsatzgruppen / Critique

faked Einsatzgruppen shooting of mother and child

fake Einsatzgruppen document

The Einsatzgruppen

http://vho.org/tr/2003/3/RudolfSchroeder321-330.html

[Kingfisher]

hermod:
Where is the interview with Faurisson from?

[hermod]

hermod:
Where is the interview with Faurisson from?

http://www.rense.com/general80/furg.htm

[Zulu]

hermod:
Where is the interview with Faurisson from?

http://www.rense.com/general80/furg.htm

Document in pdf downloadable here
https://archive.org/details/ProfessorFa ... sNoHistory

[Zulu]

I think this link is relevant.
Nazis Punishing Nazis For Mistreating Jews
http://www.whale.to/c/nazis_punishing_nazis.html
One of the things on that page is a collection of screenshots from a now defunct youtube video stating a few examples of Nazis being punished for their zealous behaviour when dealing with Jews who were not even partisans. The account with that youtube video is now closed, and I have little reason to doubt the author just made those things up. I still wish the account was active so I could ask the user what his sources was.

The source is a Faurisson's speech performed in 2002 at the 14th IHR Conference, the topic was "Punishment of Germans, by Third Reich authorities, for mistreatment of Jews (1939-1945)"
https://archive.org/details/2002-Robert ... Conference
The sources related with the data provided by the Professor in his speech are on his blog at
http://robertfaurisson.blogspot.com.es/ ... reich.html
It is an interesting subject which is not deeply treated by revisionists as Dr. Faurisson regrets. I made a pdf doc of it

Robert Faurisson, Punishment of Germans, by Third Reich authorities, for mistreatment of Jews (1939-1945) 2002.pdf

(174.49 KiB) Downloaded 534 times

[Zulu]

While the topic was related to legitimate nazi atrocities, and punishments thereof were mentioned, the Einsatzgruppen were bound to come up. I will simply post a few old topics related to the Einsatzgruppen and refrain from mentioning them again.

"Alleged" Einsatzgruppen video
USHMM's bogus 'holocaust' einsatzgruppen film
Einsatzgruppen
Einsatzgruppen / Critique
faked Einsatzgruppen shooting of mother and child
fake Einsatzgruppen document
The Einsatzgruppen
http://vho.org/tr/2003/3/RudolfSchroeder321-330.html

Thanks, I would add the part of the book "Treblinka. Extermination Camp or Transit Camp" by Carlo Mattogno, which treats the subject on its Chapter VII: "The Role of the Einsatzgruppen in the Occupied Eastern Territories"
Document in pdf

Carlo Mattogno, Treblinka. Extermination Camp or Transit Camp VII The Role of the Einsatzgruppen, 2004.pdf

(438.12 KiB) Downloaded 281 times

I am not familiar with that topic, however, it is possible that the largest part of crimes perpetrated on civilian populations of countries formerly occupied by the Soviet regime, could be attributed to the revenge taken by people who had previously suffered under the NKVD terror and its associated usual massacres of local elites (Katyn, etc). As he main NKVD chiefs and local collaborators of the Stalinist regime were Jews, it is not too hard to imagine the sentiment of the persecuted people regarding the Jewish community and the predictable consequence of it, once "liberated" by the German troops.
Nevertheless, one can ask the question of the responsibility of the German administration because of its non-interference with respect to these eventual crimes.

1942 – The following statement can be found in an official German document entitled Guidelines for the Handling of the Jewish Question, a document targeted at Germans in the conquered Soviet territories, and which contains multiple instances of the phrase “Endlösung der Judenfrage.”

“… the retaliatory [administrative?] measures taken [by the local inhabitants] against the Jews that have occurred over the last two years in the areas that have been taken from the Red Army should be tolerated. However, the activities of the mob and other low elements who enrich themselves off of the plundering of Jewish shops and the Jewish community must be sternly confronted (scharf).”

(Source: Document in PS-212, IMT Vol. XXV, p. 302-306)
http://robertfaurisson.blogspot.com.es/ ... reich.html

This resentment against the former Stalinist occupation does not seem to have completely disappeared from these regions given the honors today rendered to former residents who were engaged in the SS.
http://baltic-review.com/2014/01/estoni ... ll-honors/.

In France, soon after the Liberation in 1944, we have experienced a similar situation of revenge against the "collaborateurs", however in a far smaller scale. In the most salvage aspects of this retaliation, collaborators' families were not always spared. Incidentally, the most ferocious illegal executors were communists who took the opportunity to eliminate their future political opponents.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89pura ... age#France

[Werd]

I was just watching this documentary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEuwS9mEfVE

Case in point, the woman's testimony about what she saw starting at the 27:10 mark. She and her dad witnessed a truck driven by Germans with a tarp on the back hatch hiding what was on the truck bed. It was a bunch of Jews with two Germans sitting on the truck bed. The truck stopped and the driver said why is the child crying? The guards said because it is a baby. He ordered the baby (2 or 3 months this woman testifies on video) be given to him. It was and he grabbed it by the legs and smashed it against a wall and threw the corpse back into the truck. The mother screamed and was hysterical of course. I don't think it is absurd to believe things like that happened. While not every German soldier was a devil, not every German soldier was an angel. But cases like this of baby killing or shooting Jewish civilians in the Ukraine I doubt was the norm or was offical policy designated by Berlin. It has already been stated that William Shirer had to admit in some cases the shockingly correct behaviour of many German soldiers, especially in France

As savage as it is for example for American soldiers to be shot or even tortured if they are captured, the point is, they would not have had that problem had they not invaded and participated in an illegal war in Iraq in the first place. So it is no surprise that some partisans would attack the invading Germans because they didn't want any invaders invading their territory. But the accounts I have heard of German soldiers being captured and tortured and having their gentials mutliated, that takes it a bit far. If as a partisan you have to protect your country from a perceived threat, gential torture is crossing the line. To the credit of some partisans, they blew up supplies and not always German soldiers themselves.

[borjastick]

I don't think anyone is saying atrocities were never carried out by the Germans against anyone they deemed to be the enemy. After all we have plenty of evidence of wrong doing by all warring armies throughout history as well as fair play and decency shown to combatants by all. There are stories yet to come out (hopefully not) about the British Paras and Royal Marines in action in the Falklands conflict in 1982.

The issue here are the types of reported atrocities the Germans are reputed to have done and the number of these, and the way they are always use to bolster the argument that Germans were the evil huns with no morals or decency. It's too weighted on the side of good and against the Germans to be believable. These stories are designed to wind us up into a a frenzy of hate and thus liable to believe they were also capable of killing all the jews in Europe.

[hermod]

I was just watching this documentary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEuwS9mEfVE

Case in point, the woman's testimony about what she saw starting at the 27:10 mark. She and her dad witnessed a truck driven by Germans with a tarp on the back hatch hiding what was on the truck bed. It was a bunch of Jews with two Germans sitting on the truck bed. The truck stopped and the driver said why is the child crying? The guards said because it is a baby. He ordered the baby (2 or 3 months this woman testifies on video) be given to him. It was and he grabbed it by the legs and smashed it against a wall and threw the corpse back into the truck. The mother screamed and was hysterical of course. I don't think it is absurd to believe things like that happened. While not every German soldier was a devil, not every German soldier was an angel. But cases like this of baby killing or shooting Jewish civilians in the Ukraine I doubt was the norm or was offical policy designated by Berlin. It has already been stated that William Shirer had to admit in some cases the shockingly correct behaviour of many German soldiers, especially in France

Even if testimonies had any probative value (what they are totally deprived of as shown countless times), propaganda offices (no doubt most Western TV channels are Zionist propaganda offices) always concoct atrocity stories implying babies and children against their enemies because such tales always appall average citizens. This is a classic. The examples of the Belgian bayoneted babies of WW1 and the Kuwaiti broken incubators demonstrated that only too well. Both examples were shameful lies, but both successfully sold wars to Western average citizens with an undeniable efficiency. It's as if people's brain was instantly paused as soon as they hear stories on sufferings of babies and children. Emotions efficiently inhibit reflection and atrocity stories on babies and children are highly emotional for sure.

And I don't think a man driving a noisy truck would have been disturbed by a baby crying at the rear of his truck. He would hardly have heard that baby crying. And how could a driver have smashed a baby on a wall from his seat anyway? The location of a driver's seat is not very appropriate to smash a baby on a wall. This story doesn't pass the smell test...

[Werd]

Watch again, if you care. He got out of the truck, took the baby, walked up to a brick wall and smashed it and threw it back into the truck. Then got back in and drove again. According to the witness anyway.

Even if testimonies had any probative value (what they are totally deprived of as shown countless times), propaganda offices (no doubt most Western TV channels are Zionist propaganda offices) always concoct atrocity stories implying babies and children against their enemies because such tales always appall average citizens. This is a classic. The examples of the Belgian bayoneted babies of WW1 and the Kuwaiti broken incubators demonstrated that only too well. Both examples were shameful lies, but both successfully sold wars to Western average citizens with an undeniable efficiency. It's as if people's brain was instantly paused as soon as they hear stories on sufferings of babies and children. Emotions efficiently inhibit reflection and atrocity stories on babies and children are highly emotional for sure.

Not to be picky, but as you state, these past lies were to SELL people on a war. In this case of a baby allegedly being thrown against a wall, the war had already begun; when war occurs, so do certain excesses.